dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lineageholder on December 15, 2010, 09:11:31 AM
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I was sad to read this report about the recent inauguration of the Tharpa Choling Monastery in Kalimpong by the Dalai Lama:
http://www.tibet.net/en/index.php?id=2029&articletype=flash&rmenuid=morenews&tab=1#TabbedPanels1
I'm even sadder to see the Dalai Lama wearing a pandit's hat while he disparages the views of his root and Lineage Gurus. When inaugurating the Tharpa Choling Monastery, the Dalai Lama said:
"...Tharpa Choeling Monastery is one of the oldest Tibetan Buddhist monasteries in India. But, the propitiation of Shugden in the monastery in the past caused me inconvenience to visit. Later on, despite the fact that Shugden was propitiated by former Lamas, all the concerned people in the monastery with broad vision and reason had completely distanced themselves from the spirit worship. So, it became easy for me to come here,”
This monastery was the home of the great Gelug Yogi Domo Geshe Rinpoche, a great practitioner of Dorje Shugden. The 13th Dalai Lama believed that Domo Rinpoche was Je Tsongkhapa himself. Now, this great Yogi's heart practice has been rejected by the new incumbents of the monastery in favour of wrong views.
The Dalai Lama seems to use every public meeting even these days to disparage the practice of Dorje Shugden. He's never going to stop spreading disharmony. These are troubled times, for sure.
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I know this has been said before and there are some who may not agree to this, but I am trying to continue with a positive view on the situation.
Even on a secular level, at the lowest, basest level, why would any political leader of a people (exiled, no less) keep saying these things to incite "disharmony", anger and discord among his own people? Isn't this just social and political suicide? Why would he put his entire reputation at risk with the whole world and also with his own people?
I choose to see this as a deliberate action that will and eventually bring some positive change in the world and in practice throughout the world. some have argued that he is bent on power and reputation and control. I would like to put forward the thought that it is actually the opposite - it would take only a totally selfless person, unaffected by power/reputation/control to do something that would put his whole name so much at risk and cause so many people to "hate" him... just so that something bigger and more beneficial can arise.
I think it is good to let people know what is going on, and i thank lineageholder for sharing this article so we have awareness of what is being said or done... but I think it is important for us to also choose: do we just sit here and bitch about what the DL is saying and doing, or do we find positive ways to grow/transform from the situation and actually help more people by it? As with any action we do, consider: does it bring more people to Dharma and practice, or further away from it? Knowing of these comments / actions of the dalai lama is useful but what do we do with that knowledge and how do we react to it to create more good or bad karma? Sit around and create more negative thoughts and energy? Or do something about it that gives people more hope, strength and resources to practice.
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I know this has been said before and there are some who may not agree to this, but I am trying to continue with a positive view on the situation.
Even on a secular level, at the lowest, basest level, why would any political leader of a people (exiled, no less) keep saying these things to incite "disharmony", anger and discord among his own people? Isn't this just social and political suicide? Why would he put his entire reputation at risk with the whole world and also with his own people?
I choose to see this as a deliberate action that will and eventually bring some positive change in the world and in practice throughout the world. some have argued that he is bent on power and reputation and control. I would like to put forward the thought that it is actually the opposite - it would take only a totally selfless person, unaffected by power/reputation/control to do something that would put his whole name so much at risk and cause so many people to "hate" him... just so that something bigger and more beneficial can arise.
I think it is good to let people know what is going on, and i thank lineageholder for sharing this article so we have awareness of what is being said or done... but I think it is important for us to also choose: do we just sit here and bitch about what the DL is saying and doing, or do we find positive ways to grow/transform from the situation and actually help more people by it? As with any action we do, consider: does it bring more people to Dharma and practice, or further away from it? Knowing of these comments / actions of the dalai lama is useful but what do we do with that knowledge and how do we react to it to create more good or bad karma? Sit around and create more negative thoughts and energy? Or do something about it that gives people more hope, strength and resources to practice.
Well said. :)
This situations isnt going to go away over night, Its a long haul so I suppose we should make it as comfortable as we can and be a bit more cheery, Use the situation to our own and others benifit by futher knowledge and ever futher reliance...This can be one of our motivators to become enlightened for all sentient beings :)
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I know this has been said before and there are some who may not agree to this, but I am trying to continue with a positive view on the situation.
Even on a secular level, at the lowest, basest level, why would any political leader of a people (exiled, no less) keep saying these things to incite "disharmony", anger and discord among his own people? Isn't this just social and political suicide? Why would he put his entire reputation at risk with the whole world and also with his own people?
I choose to see this as a deliberate action that will and eventually bring some positive change in the world and in practice throughout the world. some have argued that he is bent on power and reputation and control. I would like to put forward the thought that it is actually the opposite - it would take only a totally selfless person, unaffected by power/reputation/control to do something that would put his whole name so much at risk and cause so many people to "hate" him... just so that something bigger and more beneficial can arise.
I think it is good to let people know what is going on, and i thank lineageholder for sharing this article so we have awareness of what is being said or done... but I think it is important for us to also choose: do we just sit here and bitch about what the DL is saying and doing, or do we find positive ways to grow/transform from the situation and actually help more people by it? As with any action we do, consider: does it bring more people to Dharma and practice, or further away from it? Knowing of these comments / actions of the dalai lama is useful but what do we do with that knowledge and how do we react to it to create more good or bad karma? Sit around and create more negative thoughts and energy? Or do something about it that gives people more hope, strength and resources to practice.
This was really well thought out and well expressed. Thank you so much.
It is very disconcerting that Dalai Lama is still talking and indirectly saying Domo Geshe is wrong. There is nothing much we can do to make him stop this. Most likely among the Tibetan communities in India he will lessen the practice but not outside of india among people like us. We must keep the lineage going.
We should write more articles, post more information, put up more videos, pass out more brochures on/from this website to 'counter' the Dalai Lama. We should not sit around and just talk, forum and complain but take more decisive actions. I will.
Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world should gather here and give eachother support, comfort, updates, information no matter who our teachers are or what our view of the Dalai Lama. We must look for our similarities and not differences.
tk
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We should write more articles, post more information, put up more videos to 'counter' the Dalai Lama. We should not sit around and just talk, forum and complain but take more decisive actions. I will.
tk
Well said, I am and I will continue to do so. :)
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i too will continue to work to preserve and protect our shared lineages and practice, both through my own reliance and through speaking, writing, posting, etc.
i am not "anti" Dalai Lama and i never have been. i understand i'll need to keep saying this over and over again!
i AM anti religious persecution and intolerance. the Dalai Lama's actions - ostensibly - are actions of religious persecution and intolerance and so i am against them.
i think everyone who loves Dorje Shugden should oppose these actions. why?
IF the Dalai Lama is a deluded being - and i do not say he is or he isn't - his actions are harmful and they must be stopped.
IF the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being - and i do not say he is or he isn't - his actions are, on the surface, harmful and the only correct response, conventionally, is to oppose them. if he is an enlightened being appearing to engage in deluded actions then surely he wants right-thinking, faithful disciples to oppose his actions? Buddha may appear as anything - anythying - to help our practice and to help the Dharma flourish; we must always respond appropriately, praising good behaviour and chastising negative behaviour. not to do so is to invite many faults.
he will not stop, and the TGIE is putting in place the rhetoric to maintain the ban even after he retires. NOW is the time to stop this ban, while he is still in power - we need him to rescind it; after he's gone, it'll be enshrined as doctrine forever. if he's a Buddha, he wants us to create this karma, for the benefit of future generations.
one can oppose his actions and maintain a pure view. this is wisdom.
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i too will continue to work to preserve and protect our shared lineages and practice, both through my own reliance and through speaking, writing, posting, etc.
i am not "anti" Dalai Lama and i never have been. i understand i'll need to keep saying this over and over again!
i AM anti religious persecution and intolerance. the Dalai Lama's actions - ostensibly - are actions of religious persecution and intolerance and so i am against them.
i think everyone who loves Dorje Shugden should oppose these actions. why?
IF the Dalai Lama is a deluded being - and i do not say he is or he isn't - his actions are harmful and they must be stopped.
IF the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being - and i do not say he is or he isn't - his actions are, on the surface, harmful and the only correct response, conventionally, is to oppose them. if he is an enlightened being appearing to engage in deluded actions then surely he wants right-thinking, faithful disciples to oppose his actions? Buddha may appear as anything - anythying - to help our practice and to help the Dharma flourish; we must always respond appropriately, praising good behaviour and chastising negative behaviour. not to do so is to invite many faults.
he will not stop, and the TGIE is putting in place the rhetoric to maintain the ban even after he retires. NOW is the time to stop this ban, while he is still in power - we need him to rescind it; after he's gone, it'll be enshrined as doctrine forever. if he's a Buddha, he wants us to create this karma, for the benefit of future generations.
one can oppose his actions and maintain a pure view. this is wisdom.
We got your point, you do not have to repeat it. Your views reflect your centre and that is ok. But your views may be wrong and it maybe right, but for you to repeat yourself again and again sounds like you are just trying to convince us under the guise of 'you are not sure if Dalai Lama is deluded or not' when obviously you do believe he's deluded. That is ok. That is your education and results and I respect your view. But there is so many other views and knowledge to be shared.
If we focus on so many other knowledge, many who come to this website would be benefitted in their practice especially the hundreds of new readers. :)
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of course, i think he's deluded - that's my personal view. i'm not dissembling, here, its just that i can't claim to know he's deluded, and i do respect others' views that differ from mine.
for my view, i believe i'm following the examples of Buddha and Je Tsongkhapa: i come to my conclusion by examining the Dalai Lama's actions, which are causing such harm. this my own view, not that of my "centre". i believe it's valid, but i respect others' views, as i've said.
it's also my view that the only appropriate response to harmful actions is to oppose them, even if it's distasteful and potentially off-putting to newcomers. if we don't, then i think the fall-out will be far worse in the long run.
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Dear Beggar, Zach and TK,
Thank you for your very encouraging words.
In times like these, we need much more inspiring and encouraging words and actions that BENEFIT ourselves as much as the cause. Not engage in words and actions that do not bring about any real benefits to ourselves, others or the cause.
We should write more articles, post more information, put up more videos, pass out more brochures on/from this website to 'counter' the Dalai Lama. We should not sit around and just talk, forum and complain but take more decisive actions. I will.
Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world should gather here and give eachother support, comfort, updates, information no matter who our teachers are or what our view of the Dalai Lama.
We must look for our similarities and not differences.
tk
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he will not stop, and the TGIE is putting in place the rhetoric to maintain the ban even after he retires. NOW is the time to stop this ban, while he is still in power - we need him to rescind it; after he's gone, it'll be enshrined as doctrine forever. if he's a Buddha, he wants us to create this karma, for the benefit of future generations.
one can oppose his actions and maintain a pure view. this is wisdom.
Just for discussion sake,
a) Why do you think that the ban has to be stopped while His Holiness is still in power? Perhaps it will not hold after His Holiness went into clear light.
b) On spiritual grounds, will His Holiness still be in "power" after this current incarnation? Bear in mind that Tibetan Buddhism is no longer just for Tibetans and many practitioners (globally) are not Tibetans.
c) On political grounds, even if the ban is enshrined as a doctrine "forever" , who will uphold and execute the ban? The TGIE? Do they have power over the non-Tibetans practitioners all over the world who have their own teachers and their own centres and resources of non-Tibetan origin?
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a) Why do you think that the ban has to be stopped while His Holiness is still in power? Perhaps it will not hold after His Holiness went into clear light.
perhaps it won't - i sincerely hope not. but i very much fear that after his retirement or death, whoever in future holds the power to rescind the ban will (ironically for us) say that they have no authority to overturn their lineage Lama's decisions. in fact the Dalai Lama has used this very argument when, dishonestly, claiming that he cannot override the views of the 5th and 13th Dalai Lamas on this issue.
b) On spiritual grounds, will His Holiness still be in "power" after this current incarnation? Bear in mind that Tibetan Buddhism is no longer just for Tibetans and many practitioners (globally) are not Tibetans.
no. but for the reason stated above i think he will still exert a very strong influence on those who will be in power.
c) On political grounds, even if the ban is enshrined as a doctrine "forever" , who will uphold and execute the ban? The TGIE? Do they have power over the non-Tibetans practitioners all over the world who have their own teachers and their own centres and resources of non-Tibetan origin?
no, the TGIE has no power, and will have no power over practitioners outside the Tibetan diaspora. this is a very important point: many on this forum have made the point that the Dalai Lama and the TGIE have no direct control over non-Tibetan Sanghas, and that people such as we have freedom to practise whatever we wish.
this is true. however, by saying, again and again, that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and that those who rely on him are outside Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and the TGIE are destroying our reputation and credibility as members of the Buddhist Sangha. who do you think people, in general, will believe? us or the Dalai Lama?
he has incredibly powerful speech. through his speech, the most highly and widely revered Gelugpa Lamas of the last century, Je Pabongkhapa and HH Trijang Rinpoche have had their photographs removed from shrines and their reputations almost entirely destroyed.
we underestimate the power of his speech and we overestimate our independence.
of course, we are free to do as we please. but you watch: already, we are increasingly marginalised and distrusted. already, Shugdenpas are considered spirit-worshippers, responsible for the degeneration of holy Buddha Dharma, by the majority. so yes, we are free and we'll never give up our practice. but how many will take up our practice in the next generation? how many in the generation after that?
"We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dholgyal is remembered."
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a) Why do you think that the ban has to be stopped while His Holiness is still in power? Perhaps it will not hold after His Holiness went into clear light.
perhaps it won't - i sincerely hope not. but i very much fear that after his retirement or death, whoever in future holds the power to rescind the ban will (ironically for us) say that they have no authority to overturn their lineage Lama's decisions. in fact the Dalai Lama has used this very argument when, dishonestly, claiming that he cannot override the views of the 5th and 13th Dalai Lamas on this issue.
What AC says here is very valid. But that is just one valid scenario. Hundreds of other scenarios may happen in our benefit. The future person in power WILL NEVER HAVE AS MUCH POWER AS THE CURRENT DALAI LAMA. The whole demographics have changed and will change much more. The person in power may say they do not have the power to overturn the ban, but also will not have the power to enforce the ban or continue the rampage. This person will not have the power and prestige to enforce it and if there are protests, they will not have the reputation to stave off the results of the protests.
b) On spiritual grounds, will His Holiness still be in "power" after this current incarnation? Bear in mind that Tibetan Buddhism is no longer just for Tibetans and many practitioners (globally) are not Tibetans.
no. but for the reason stated above i think he will still exert a very strong influence on those who will be in power.
Yes, his influence is strong. So was Julius Caesar, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Mussolini, Marcos and their regimes have faded. Their rule is seen as tyranny. Many of the previous popes are not seen in a good light at all now. The Dalai Lama's influence will fade, will disappear and will have no effect in regards to Shugden so let's make this happen here. I do not hate Dalai Lama nor wish him ill. In fact I like many of the things he does, but not the Shugden issue.
We must promote the famous names, powerful, and great Tulkus names we have in our Gelug Lineage and create the circumstances for them to reach many and highly publicize them. Hence Tulkus are very important in this. Dalai Lama's got his power due to his tulku-ship. Panchen Lama, Trijang Lama, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen Rinpoche, Dagom Lama, Tendar Lama, Domo Geshe, Rabten Lama, etc etc will play powerful roles if we support them. The Tulku system will be very important.
c) On political grounds, even if the ban is enshrined as a doctrine "forever" , who will uphold and execute the ban? The TGIE? Do they have power over the non-Tibetans practitioners all over the world who have their own teachers and their own centres and resources of non-Tibetan origin?
no, the TGIE has no power, and will have no power over practitioners outside the Tibetan diaspora. this is a very important point: many on this forum have made the point that the Dalai Lama and the TGIE have no direct control over non-Tibetan Sanghas, and that people such as we have freedom to practise whatever we wish.
this is true. however, by saying, again and again, that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and that those who rely on him are outside Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and the TGIE are destroying our reputation and credibility as members of the Buddhist Sangha. who do you think people, in general, will believe? us or the Dalai Lama?
he has incredibly powerful speech. through his speech, the most highly and widely revered Gelugpa Lamas of the last century, Je Pabongkhapa and HH Trijang Rinpoche have had their photographs removed from shrines and their reputations almost entirely destroyed.
we underestimate the power of his speech and we overestimate our independence.
of course, we are free to do as we please. but you watch: already, we are increasingly marginalised and distrusted. already, Shugdenpas are considered spirit-worshippers, responsible for the degeneration of holy Buddha Dharma, by the majority. so yes, we are free and we'll never give up our practice. but how many will take up our practice in the next generation? how many in the generation after that?
"We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dholgyal is remembered."
Look at the Quakers, Puritans, Mormons, Baptists, Salem witches and persecuted Jewish people to name a few which were all viewed with contempt and marginalized. But now they have either morphed into something much bigger (what we can do) or survived into the present day protected by law and doing well.
The Dalai Lama's speech and influence will be here for a while, but not forever and we can do everything we can to counter it. So let's do it here.
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Everything looks difficult right now but if we look on the macro level, this period of time is but a tiny speck. The persecution of Shugden practitioners is similar to the fight between Protestants and the Catholics and the persecution here was for much longer and more tortuous. Yet today, they co-exist in relative harmony (except in Northern Ireland :(). We may or may not see things change in our lifetime - though of course I pray very much that they will - but I believe and trust in Dorje Shugden that things will work out in time and Dorje Shugden will ensure it is the right time.
i do believe that Dorje Shugden is looking after us, guiding us, so as long as we do our part - by practising Lord Tsongkhapa's teachings, keeping our refuge vows and not harming any sentient beings - be they the Dalai Lama or our bloody annoying neighbour - then things will work out. Some might think that is too idealistic but I don't think so. It keeps me optimistic.
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Everything looks difficult right now but if we look on the macro level, this period of time is but a tiny speck. The persecution of Shugden practitioners is similar to the fight between Protestants and the Catholics and the persecution here was for much longer and more tortuous. Yet today, they co-exist in relative harmony (except in Northern Ireland :(). We may or may not see things change in our lifetime - though of course I pray very much that they will - but I believe and trust in Dorje Shugden that things will work out in time and Dorje Shugden will ensure it is the right time.
i do believe that Dorje Shugden is looking after us, guiding us, so as long as we do our part - by practising Lord Tsongkhapa's teachings, keeping our refuge vows and not harming any sentient beings - be they the Dalai Lama or our bloody annoying neighbour - then things will work out. Some might think that is too idealistic but I don't think so. It keeps me optimistic.
I like your positive outlook based on logical thoughts. If I believe it will not turn out well, then why be here at all?
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c) On political grounds, even if the ban is enshrined as a doctrine "forever" , who will uphold and execute the ban? The TGIE? Do they have power over the non-Tibetans practitioners all over the world who have their own teachers and their own centres and resources of non-Tibetan origin?
no, the TGIE has no power, and will have no power over practitioners outside the Tibetan diaspora. this is a very important point: many on this forum have made the point that the Dalai Lama and the TGIE have no direct control over non-Tibetan Sanghas, and that people such as we have freedom to practise whatever we wish.
this is true. however, by saying, again and again, that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and that those who rely on him are outside Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and the TGIE are destroying our reputation and credibility as members of the Buddhist Sangha. who do you think people, in general, will believe? us or the Dalai Lama?
he has incredibly powerful speech. through his speech, the most highly and widely revered Gelugpa Lamas of the last century, Je Pabongkhapa and HH Trijang Rinpoche have had their photographs removed from shrines and their reputations almost entirely destroyed.
we underestimate the power of his speech and we overestimate our independence.
of course, we are free to do as we please. but you watch: already, we are increasingly marginalised and distrusted. already, Shugdenpas are considered spirit-worshippers, responsible for the degeneration of holy Buddha Dharma, by the majority. so yes, we are free and we'll never give up our practice. but how many will take up our practice in the next generation? how many in the generation after that?
"We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dholgyal is remembered."
Dear Atisha Cook,
Thank you for responding to my questions. I do agree with you re His Holiness' powerful speech that caused Je Pabongkhapa's and HH Trijang Rinpoche's photographs removed from shrines and their reputations almost entirely destroyed.
But, I do think this is done out of respect for His Holiness (not so much the TGIE or the enforcement of the ban). Sorry to say, when His Holiness takes his leave (I don't wish this to happen but it will), the people who are the students of Je Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche will bring their teachers up again.
There are many masters out there who kept silent in respect of His Holiness. An example is Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal who kept silent until the end of his term when he switched camp. It is not necessary that the lineage will be destroyed, but the lineage has a new beginning with proper Shugden monasteries starting and will take root in the future: Shar Ganden and also Serpom. Don't forget, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is young and is yet to manifest his great works.
I hope we all live long to see the day where Shugden and its practice is as bright as the sun in the sky. The dark and gloomy days of the ban will soon be over. We just need to have patience.
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Dear Vajraprotector,
I like what you said here and I agree. Kyabje Pabongka and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoches students will bring them up again.
That is why we have the chance NOW to do so on this forum.
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Rossini Schillachi
175.144.20.234
Guestbook #1 Submitted on 21 December 2010 09:15:35
I'm live in Milan and this site one of the better Dorje Shugden sites I have encountered, I would be most surprised if another site can top this one. Good job in flying the flag of Dorje Shugden.
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In this interview (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1209) between Thubten Jigme Norbu and Donald S. Lopez, Jr., I noticed that while Norbu - the Dalai Lama's elder brother - is understandably anti-Shugden, he also said something interesting:
NORBU: Until I was seventeen or eighteen, when I came to Lhasa, I never heard about Dorje Shugden. In Lhasa, people talked about Shugden this and that. But I never paid any attention. Then, ever since His Holiness tried to tell people not worship – or not to take refuge in – Shugden, I tried to learn a little.
This is exactly what several people have mentioned - that the ban has raised awareness of this practice which may have simply gone under the radar if it was NOT banned. Ordinarily, ,many people would not pay attention to a practice which they are not involved in but because of the ban, people have wanted to find out what is the story behind this ban.
Norbu's last word is also interesting:
NORBU: I’m sorry about this whole crisis. But there is one thing I’m very happy about. There are worshipers of Shugden who try to give some good teachings about Buddhism. And people will learn something about Buddhism. The sad thing is, they try to tell people to worship this ghost – that’s very sad. But, too, you know, the good and the bad – which one is it? If worldly power is with you, you always have duality.
Although Norbu is towing the party line as it were, he also gives credit to Shugdenpas who do give good Dharma teachings.
And yes, we always have duality in samsara, which we have to be mindful of.
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Related to my original post that started this thread, here's a pic of Lama Zopa and Domo Geshe Rinpoche, taken in Kalimpong on Dec 10:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=8171545&l=9fd392afd7&id=186747361240
I don't believe that the genuine Domo Geshe Rinpoche would ever give up the practice of Dorje Shugden, so I have my doubts.
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Related to my original post that started this thread, here's a pic of Lama Zopa and Domo Geshe Rinpoche, taken in Kalimpong on Dec 10:
[url]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=8171545&l=9fd392afd7&id=186747361240[/url]
I don't believe that the genuine Domo Geshe Rinpoche would ever give up the practice of Dorje Shugden, so I have my doubts.
When you say genuine, do you mean that you think this incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche is false?
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When you say genuine, do you mean that you think this incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche is false?
I believe that's a possibility. I don't trust the tulku system because it's open to abuse, especially in these degenerate times, and has been abused in the past.
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I believe this incarnation of Domo Chocktrul Rinpoche is real.
The current incarnation (Domo Chocktrul Rinpoche Losang Jigme Nyak-Gi Wangchuk) was recognized by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama.
The enthronement in year 2008 was presided by Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche and Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche, high lamas in attendance during the ceremony included: Achok Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Zawa Rinpoche, Michel Rinpoche, Helmut Gassner attended as Gonsar Rinpoche’s representative, Kentrul Rinpoche as Kyabje Phabongkha Rinpoche’s representative.
Read more here:
1. http://www.domogesherinpoche.org/ (http://www.domogesherinpoche.org/)
2. http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=516 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=516)
As Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche said at the beginning of the ceremony, the young Tulku has been recognized in order for him “to continue his activities for the flourishing of the teachings of the Buddha, particularly for the teachings of the great master Je Tsong Khapa.” I believe Domo Chocktrul Rinpoche will continue the lineage of spreading the teachings of Shugden when the time is right.
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There are two Domo Geshe Rinpoche incarnations. One is recognized by HH Dalai Lama and the other by HH the current Trijang Rinpoche.
The Tulku system may have it's flaws and can be abused but that does not mean all Tulkus recognized are false, or all tulkus are wrong or the tulku system is not to be believed in. Sweeping statements are not necessary. It's important to think and observe for oneself before criticism of high beings or a system advocated by great lamas. We should not jump into a river and be carried away by the heavy currents.
There are three Temples that were built and started by Domo Geshe Rinpoche's (DGR) previous illustrious and perfect Tulku manifestation in North India that are functioning today. Also his large centre in Upper New York State in the US.
His Holiness the current Trijang Rinpoche recognized Dome Geshe Rinpoche and he was officially enthroned in his monastery in North India and has entered Shar Gaden Monastery already.
( Enthronement: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=516 ) To counter this, Sera Jey Monastery had another DGR recognized and received a seal from HH Dalai Lama and they enthroned the second one in Sera Jey. The picture Lama Zopa took together with is the Sera Jey one.
So the tulku system is fine. Just follow, believe, trust and observe the one recognized by HH Trijang Rinpoche. Remain silent of criticism, offer pujas, good wishes, and merits for the success of this one. It is important especially after the passing of HH Dalai Lama (sorry). This Tulkus will be VERY IMPORTANT THEN.
After all, HH Dalai Lama recognized Lama Osel (Lama Thupten Yeshe's incarnation) and that has not worked out well so far for FPMT. Quite embarrassing it has been for them.. Lama Osel has given up all ties to FPMT. Results of broken samaya/practice.
HH Dalai Lama recognized the Panchen Lama and he is gone now. The new Panchen is accepted by the 1.2 billion people of China, and it doesn't matter what the 6 million of Tibet thinks I'm sorry to say. This new Panchen seems to be doing a very good job in China so far.
Two of DGR's temples in North India and the New York State Centre side their allegiance to Trijiang Rinpoche's chosen Tulku. One of the North Indian Temples sides with the Dalai lama's choice.
It will be interesting to see what happens. Make it simple, the Tulku system like any system is flawed, but that does not mean it has not worked and will not work again.
I wish His Eminenence Domo Geshe Rinpoche long life, health, hard working students, his entourage to grow, his dharma work to shine again and to proliferate the Gaden tradition as protected by Wrathful Manjushri Dorje Shugden.
TK
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The Dalai Lama recognised Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th Panchen Lama. The boy was abducted and disappeared.
The Dalai Lama recognised Ogyen Trinley Dorje, also the Chinese backed candidate, as the 17th Karmapa in preference to the Sharmapa's candidate, Trinley Thaye Dorje causing an unprecedented and bitter split in the Kagyu tradition.
The Dalai Lama recognised an incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche who doesn't practise Dorje Shugden in opposition to the candidate chosen by Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, potentially causing division in the Gelugpa tradition. (There's also another candidate - a Western woman who claims to be Domo Geshe Rinpoche's incarnation. This shows how the tulku system is potentially unreliable)
The Dalai Lama recognised Lama Osel, a supposed Tulku of Lama Yeshe, but the Spanish boy they recognised, Hita Torres has since turned his back on the FMPT and gone into a career in film making.
There's a pattern here, don't you think........?
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The Tulku system may have it's flaws and can be abused but that does not mean all Tulkus recognized are false, or all tulkus are wrong or the tulku system is not to be believed in. Sweeping statements are not necessary. It's important to think and observe for oneself before criticism of high beings or a system advocated by great lamas. We should not jump into a river and be carried away by the heavy currents.
Dear tk,
Thanks for the information. Of course we cannot say that all tulkus are wrong, the problem is determining which ones are genuine. I myself prefer to be inspired by the example and deeds of a particular Teacher, not by their title, although if the two are in accordance that can be very inspiring.
A case in point is Je Rinpoche who was not recognised as the incarnation of any Tibetan Lama, but who was simply 'Losang Dragpa' - however, he was the crown ornament of the scholars of the Land of the Snows, source of the Ganden doctrine and (I believe) the greatest living scholar and Yogi that Buddhism has produced.
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I think the examples raised of eg 11th Panchen Lama is not necessarily an example of the failure of the Tulku system. The Dalai Lama's candidate was detained, and is not a flaw of the system. However, the Chinese sanctioned Panchen Lama may well be a Tulku also - same as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive. HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one because he decided to become a lay person? i personally don't think so. What about HH Zong Rinpoche - is he a fake tulku, because he is not outwardly practising DS? They may not have necessarily produced 'example and deeds' yet but it doesn't mean they are not qualified and will produce great things in the future.
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I think the examples raised of eg 11th Panchen Lama is not necessarily an example of the failure of the Tulku system. The Dalai Lama's candidate was detained, and is not a flaw of the system. However, the Chinese sanctioned Panchen Lama may well be a Tulku also - same as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive. HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one because he decided to become a lay person? i personally don't think so. What about HH Zong Rinpoche - is he a fake tulku, because he is not outwardly practising DS? They may not have necessarily produced 'example and deeds' yet but it doesn't mean they are not qualified and will produce great things in the future.
The Dalai Lama made a major error in declaring his candidate for 11th Panchen Lama because the boy was vulnerable as far as the Chinese authorities were concerned, so he was detained. I hope he is still alive and well.
As for the other tulkus, there's no way to know for sure whether they are the person they are recognised as. As I said before, I think it's best to be inspired by a person's example rather than the title they are given. I do hope we will see the greatness of these Lamas in the future.
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I think the examples raised of eg 11th Panchen Lama is not necessarily an example of the failure of the Tulku system. The Dalai Lama's candidate was detained, and is not a flaw of the system. However, the Chinese sanctioned Panchen Lama may well be a Tulku also - same as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive. HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one because he decided to become a lay person? i personally don't think so. What about HH Zong Rinpoche - is he a fake tulku, because he is not outwardly practising DS? They may not have necessarily produced 'example and deeds' yet but it doesn't mean they are not qualified and will produce great things in the future.
The Dalai Lama made a major error in declaring his candidate for 11th Panchen Lama because the boy was vulnerable as far as the Chinese authorities were concerned, so he was detained. I hope he is still alive and well.
As for the other tulkus, there's no way to know for sure whether they are the person they are recognised as. As I said before, I think it's best to be inspired by a person's example rather than the title they are given. I do hope we will see the greatness of these Lamas in the future.
If Buddha's are Intent upon helping us via Recognised reincarnations I think it would not be beyond doubt that in the case of the 11th panchen lama that when one has some omniscient wisdom an enlightened being would not eminate where it is unskillfull or unwise to do so, Buddhas would know anyone recognised by the Dalai lama within china as a child reincarnate is certainly in danger...Better to have government approval in an authoritarian system then be a perceived opponent from the start how many people could you help then when you have the whole nation against you ?
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...as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive. HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one ...
So how about making a positive truth statement about the issue?
"As I cannot know who is a Tulku and who is a not, I must in truth, say so, and to the effect that I accept someone as a Tulku, I do so merley based on a belief, not knowledge or wisdom."
That would be called truthful speech. The rest is just opionated ballyhoo.
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I definitely believe in Tulkus. If great many reputable teachers give credence to their existence, so do I. Simple. The End.
I do not need to put in any of my input to tell them they are wrong or right. If they are wrong, why be on this forum, then they are wrong about everything.
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I definitely believe in Tulkus. If great many reputable teachers give credence to their existence, so do I. Simple. The End.
I do not need to put in any of my input to tell them they are wrong or right. If they are wrong, why be on this forum, then they are wrong about everything.
I believe in tulkus too. Of course there are beings who, through their tantric realizations, have the power to remain mindful through the death process and to incarnate in a different body and continue with their practice but whether such beings appear in this world depends upon our collective karma. Just because young boys are being recognised as reincarnate Lamas does not mean that this is the case. Look at the 14th Dalai Lama who is supposedly a tulku but who has rejected the teachings of his root and lineage Gurus. There are even stories that he was wrongly identified, which would explain a lot of what is happening. This is what I mean when I say that we cannot take titles on face value - it is the example of such people that is most important.
I do agree with WisdomBeing in another thread - there is a lot of expectation placed on such a young boy or girl from the very beginning and they have a lot to live up to. From this point of view, I feel sorry for anyone who is recognised as a tulku. I think it might be better if there were no titles and each person were simply to manifest their greatness in accordance with their realizations over time - or not, as the case may be.
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I think the examples raised of eg 11th Panchen Lama is not necessarily an example of the failure of the Tulku system. The Dalai Lama's candidate was detained, and is not a flaw of the system. However, the Chinese sanctioned Panchen Lama may well be a Tulku also - same as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive. HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one because he decided to become a lay person? i personally don't think so. What about HH Zong Rinpoche - is he a fake tulku, because he is not outwardly practising DS? They may not have necessarily produced 'example and deeds' yet but it doesn't mean they are not qualified and will produce great things in the future.
The Dalai Lama made a major error in declaring his candidate for 11th Panchen Lama because the boy was vulnerable as far as the Chinese authorities were concerned, so he was detained. I hope he is still alive and well.
As for the other tulkus, there's no way to know for sure whether they are the person they are recognised as. As I said before, I think it's best to be inspired by a person's example rather than the title they are given. I do hope we will see the greatness of these Lamas in the future.
If Buddha's are Intent upon helping us via Recognised reincarnations I think it would not be beyond doubt that in the case of the 11th panchen lama that when one has some omniscient wisdom an enlightened being would not eminate where it is unskillfull or unwise to do so, Buddhas would know anyone recognised by the Dalai lama within china as a child reincarnate is certainly in danger...Better to have government approval in an authoritarian system then be a perceived opponent from the start how many people could you help then when you have the whole nation against you ?
Dear Zach,
I agree with you - an enlightened being would only appear in order to best benefit sentient beings, otherwise there is no purpose for manifesting. It's definitely not for fun!
With the Panchen Lama issue - Gyancain Norbu is recognised by Lama Gangchen Rinpoche, who I absolutely adore. I am happy to see Gyancain Norbu as the Panchen Lama, though of course many will say he is the fake one since the Dalai Lama has already identified Gedhun Choekyi Nyima. It just goes back to the fact that Buddhas can emanate in more than one physical form, so rather than outguess who is who, and not having foresight nor clairvoyance, I will respect the recognition of incarnations by Lamas who I respect.
Personally I like tulkus because it is an example of a continuous 'attained' mindstream.. and usually the qualities of the incarnate lama will show in their extraordinary abilities, such as to memorise Dharma texts, as i believe Gangchen Rinpoche exhibited.
"Lama Gangchen was born in Western Tibet in 1941. He was recognised at an early age to be a reincarnate Lama healer and was enthroned at Gangchen Choepeling Monastery at the age of five. When he reached the age of twelve, he received the “Kachen” degree which is usually conferred after twenty years of study. Between the ages of thirteen and eighteen, he studied medicine, astrology, meditation and philosophy in two of the major monastic universities of Tibet: Sera and Tashi Lhumpo." (from http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1865)
Lineageholder - glad to read that you believe in tulkus too though albeit you prefer there were no titles. I guess different strokes for different folks. I'm curious - which lamas do you respect enough to trust to identify an incarnation or do you not trust any lamas?
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Lineageholder - glad to read that you believe in tulkus too though albeit you prefer there were no titles. I guess different strokes for different folks. I'm curious - which lamas do you respect enough to trust to identify an incarnation or do you not trust any lamas?
WisdomBeing, sorry to say that I don't trust any lama to identify an incarnation. I would trust my own Guru, but in our tradition we don't identify tulkus. Although I believe in the existence of tulkus, in general I think these times are just too degenerate for them to be identified reliably. Most of the great Teachers I would have trusted such as Je Pabongkhapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang and Geshe Lobsang Tharchin have sadly passed away. I trust my Guru and lineage Teachers to give the Dharma. I think the most important thing is to focus on the Dharma because that's something we can verify through our own experience, through scripture and realization, but as for tulkus, I don't trust their recognition, sorry. Whatever merits a person is seen to possess will be through their knowledge and practice of Dharma, not their title.
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Most of the great Teachers I would have trusted such as Je Pabongkhapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang and Geshe Lobsang Tharchin have sadly passed away.....
I forgot to add the incomparable Song Rinpoche to that list.
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Lineageholder - glad to read that you believe in tulkus too though albeit you prefer there were no titles. I guess different strokes for different folks. I'm curious - which lamas do you respect enough to trust to identify an incarnation or do you not trust any lamas?
WisdomBeing, sorry to say that I don't trust any lama to identify an incarnation. I would trust my own Guru, but in our tradition we don't identify tulkus. Although I believe in the existence of tulkus, in general I think these times are just too degenerate for them to be identified reliably. Most of the great Teachers I would have trusted such as Je Pabongkhapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang and Geshe Lobsang Tharchin have sadly passed away. I trust my Guru and lineage Teachers to give the Dharma. I think the most important thing is to focus on the Dharma because that's something we can verify through our own experience, through scripture and realization, but as for tulkus, I don't trust their recognition, sorry. Whatever merits a person is seen to possess will be through their knowledge and practice of Dharma, not their title.
As your tradition doesn't identify tulkus, does that mean you don't believe HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is an incarnation of the previous HH Trijang Rinpoche?
just curious - what about the tulkus that the previous great masters identified - such as Je Pabongkhapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang and Geshe Lobsang Tharchin? And Song Rinpoche of course :)
If you trusted their previous incarnations, and not the current young(er) incarnations, then would you trust someone who they had identified in their previous incarnation?
Agreed re the focus is on the Dharma - i don't think there's any dispute about that, but the great lineage lamas, who are usually tulkus, would be the ones to bring the Dharma to many students. Even the tulkus who may not be identified as tulkus actually are, and it would be reflected in their activities and achievements.
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Yes, His Holiness is not going to stop until Dorje Shugden is well known. His Holiness is so compassionate that He is willing to put Himself through all the problems and conflicts to make the practise of Dorje Shugden well known, such a great being!
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Yes, His Holiness is not going to stop until Dorje Shugden is well known.
What you want to say is that the evil dalie's witch-hunt is welcome, because it promotes your religious brand.
You are like the unscrupulous Christian clerics who welcome the murdering of Christians, because this allows them to pose as victims and martyrs. The power of the Christian church was erected precisely on the basis of the myth of martyrdom, and this is obviously the model you want to follow using the suffering of Shugdenpas.
You are also like the unscrupulous politicians who welcome terrorist attacks against their own country, because this allows them to use such attacks as a pretext to reinforce their own political power. For instance, George W. Bush was caught frantically laughing immediately after he was informed of the 9/11 attacks.
Bottom line, your twisted line of reasoning shows that you place your nauseating greed for fame and recognition, which you project on your religious brand of choice, above every single human value and limit of decency. Unwittingly, you became a barbaric monster, all the while calling yourself a “Shugdenpa”.
His Holiness is so compassionate that He is willing to put Himself through all the problems and conflicts to make the practise of Dorje Shugden well known, such a great being!
You have obviously lost contact with reality. Who is going through all the problems and conflicts are the victims of the evil dalie, the innocent practitioners of Dorje Shugden, on whose suffering you rejoice, not the criminal perpetrator you so fanatically support. Your deranged fanaticism makes you see the victim as the perpetrator, and the perpetrator as the victim.
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There you go again, Matibhadra. Although your comments do make sense in a very controversial way, Shugdenpas by having suffered so much in their practice had learnt to look at the positivity in their bad predicament. As a matter of fact Shugdenpas are really practising what the HH Dalai Lama profess to do so with His relationship with China. The compassionate middle way.
Shugdenpas will practise their religion without fear and are very steadfast and many movements had occurred to make the world know of the discrimination against them but yet they utter nothing bad against the Dalai Lama nor any person in particular. No name calling.
Shugdenpas will work to have the ban lifted.
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There you go again, Matibhadra. Although your comments do make sense in a very controversial way,
Some people find it “controversial” to refer to a criminal as such; that's why their comments make no sense.
Shugdenpas by having suffered so much in their practice had learnt to look cannot at the positivity in their bad predicament.
This is a fanciful, self-fooling description of unscrupulous religionists claiming to be Shugdenpas, but who rejoice on the suffering of others as a method to promote their own religious brand.
As a matter of fact Shugdenpas are really practising what the HH Dalai Lama profess to do so with His relationship with China. The compassionate middle way.
What the evil dalie actually professes and does in his relationship with China is to promote bloody racist riots and gruesome self-immolations, as required by his role of Western geopolitical puppet.
Why do you call this “the compassionate middle way” might be explained by some disfunction in your Buddhist training.
Shugdenpas will practise their religion without fear and are very steadfast and many movements had occurred to make the world know of the discrimination against them but yet they utter nothing bad against the Dalai Lama nor any person in particular. No name calling.
You see “bad utterance” and “name calling” where it does not exist, such as in calling a criminal “criminal”, just because you want to protect the criminal, which you want to sell as “Chenrezig”.
And why? Because ultimately you don't care about his crimes against humanity; you just care about the prospect of eventually becoming one of his favored minions, and thus an accomplice of his future crimes.