dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on December 16, 2010, 11:33:39 PM
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Tibet will never get autonomy. Tibet will never gain independence. :( Only Dorje Shugden can give them a glimmer of hope toward preservation of Buddha Dharma in Tibet itself.
After this Dalai Lama passes, all the Tibetans in Tibet will become Chinese. Their voices for independence will fade. All the Tibetans in India who have money will make a scramble to countries outside of India. The Tibetans living abroad and outside of Tibet will lose their language, culture and become mixed into the mainstream culture of their adopted country like every other immigrant. The Tibetans in India will just worry about survival.
Tibetan Buddhism will ironically truly exist outside of most Tibetans. Dorje Shugden will grow in reputation and not any lama in the future will have the power to speak against him. The Dalai Lama did this. Watch as the 'show' unfolds. :(
So let's talk about everything related to Dorje Shugden's practice, lineage, lamas, centres, nature and benefits on this forum to start the education of the new wave of dharma practitioners who will have heard of Dorje Shugden and want to know more. :)
Homage to Dorje Shugden who although intangible to the untrained perciever arising from Dharmakaya has become tangible by someone in rupakaya named Dalai Lama. It will be exciting times ahead. So let's keep working hard here to make it happen.
TK
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Thank you, TK for posting this.
I must admit that I did not start by coming into this website with warm fuzzy feelings of HHDL, but after reading many many articles and going through the forum, especially - I started developed a more peaceful method for myself to continue my own practice. One that does not "harm" my mind nor incur more bad karma for myself.
For this and much more, I do really appreciate and thank everyone who made this website and contribute to this website.
There is a certain "lightness" within me and I feel that I can truly practice without harbouring any ill thoughts or feelings towards anyone, especially HHDL.
I choose to focus on becoming a much better Dorje Shugden practitioner and help to promote Dorje Shugden to as many people as possible to dispel the misconception.
I agree, these are indeed very exciting times!
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Dear TK,
Thank you for your foresight. It makes what the Dalai Lama is doing right now even more clear to me. That is why the Dalai Lama pushes Dorje Shugden practitioners so much all over the world. I think Dorje Shugden is banned not because he is really harmful to the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan cause although that is what he says now but it is banned so every practitioner realise how precious and beneficial this practice is and work even harder to protect and promote it.
Inflamed by the seeming injustice of this ban, the Dalai Lama has made every single practitioner who are real practitioners to strive even harder, grow and spread this Protector far and wide. Hence, he is making us strong, purify our collective karma and prepare us for the time when he is not around and when Dorje Shugden will take over. It would be a meteoric rise especially in places like China where they are at the forefront of world economic and cultural dominance. Hence, I think the Dalai Lama will continue to push Dorje Shugden practitioners harder and harder in preparation for that time.
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Like the power of a ruler of a country, it comes and goes. Countries exist because we draw the boundries between them. Infact, we are all citizens of the Earth, we come and go too..........
If what TK shared with us comes true, it may not be bad at all. Imagine all the Tibetans are scattered around the world, they will inevitably strive to keep their culture, belief and religion. In this way, Buddhism will have even a better opportunity to spread far and wide and getting to all walks of lives in a big way, not to mention, the practice of Dorje Shugden.
I hope I live long enough to see what is unfolding for King Dorje Shugden!!!
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I just read this in TIME that resonate with what TK posted previously. Despite Karmapa's charisma, His Holiness the Karmapa is after all, NOT the Dalai Lama and will be not be respected or treated in the same way as Dalai Lama was.
I think it's quite obvious with the latest raid of His Holiness the Karmapa's office how the Indian view the Karmapa. Also, people are still divided between the 2 Karmapas.
But to his Indian critics, Dorje (His Holiness the Karmapa) is hardly the Pope. Unlike the Dalai Lama, who embarks on global tours and visits to remote monasteries every year, Dorje sees his movement tightly controlled and restricted by the Indian government. His only foreign trip to date was a swing through the U.S. in 2008. Because of challenges leveled by a couple of rival claimants to his holy position as the Karmapa Lama, he's barred from visiting the Rumtek monastery in the Indian state of Sikkim, one of the most important shrines of his Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhism and the abode of the Black Crown, one of the sect's most hallowed relics.
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As the Dalai Lama reaches his twilight years, a disenchanted, disgruntled population is the last legacy he wants to leave behind. It's unlikely Dorje would directly replace him — after all, he is supposedly the realized incarnation of a sect that's considerably older than the Dalai Lama's Gelugpa order. But in the power vacuum that may follow the Dalai Lama's death, no other spiritual leader could rival Dorje's charisma and prestige.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2046124,00.html
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With the current political situation in China, I agree with TK that Tibet will not gain independence or autonomy. With due respect, when HHDL passes, all Tibetan freedom cause will slowly be forgotten and all the opposition against the practice of Dorje Shugden will fade away. So what will happen to all the people who opposes the practice of Dorje Shugden? Most probably they will continue to be disgruntled but eventually fade into oblivion.
Before that happens, perhaps they should reflect upon the basis of their opposition. Is it due to sound basis or is it because they feel that their salvation lies in supporting HHDL whom they believe is Chenrezig and infallible. Whatever the reason, they should see for themselves whether their actions have brought good results of peace and harmony among fellow Buddhist. If not, then maybe they should reevaluate their actions.
During his lifetime, HHDL has created so much controversy in the practice of Dorje Shugden that has brought world wide media attention towards Dorje Shugden. Many people who would otherwise not even heard of Dorje Shugden begin to investigate and learn about Dorje Shugden due to this controversy. Could it be that the controversy was HHDL enlightened actions to bring the practice of Dorje Shugden world wide to many people in this degenerate age who so need this practice? We do not know for sure, but the end result seems to head towards this direction.
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I think the results will speak for themselves.
When more and more people begin to learn and practice Dorje Shugden, then even those who criticised the Dalai Lama for his harshness and those who disagreed with the view of a Bigger Picture may begin to appreciate that perhaps something was already planned for much earlier on.
However, whether people disagreed or agreed - either way, in time, many people who did not or could not practice Dorje Shugden will eventually be free to do so.
Especially after His Holiness's passing and after the collapse of the TGIE.
In fact, if I may be so bold to say - everyone will find that they will want to seek Dorje Shugden's help more and more.
From nothing, Tibetans In Exile flourished in India and Dharma spread into the world - all the high Lamas practised Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden is a true Protector - HE WILL NEVER ABANDON ANYONE even if some have abandoned HIM.
Those who have continued to practice Dorje Shugden and have even continued to survive and thrive outside of the ban or in spite of the ban are proofs that this magnificent Protector never stops, never rests and pauses. Dorje Shugden is always with us all.
Every road leads us to Dorje Shugden because Dorje Shugden is only interested in cultivating true Dharma in everyone.
In the end, Dharma will triumph. Dorje Shugden will triumph.
The sun will soon shine again.
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What TK has said is happening already. The Dalai Lama is still alive and yet one of the people that he is so close to, and which his government so openly promotes, is under investigation by the Indian government. There is no one listening to the TGIE and they have no weighting anywhere, not even in the country where they are residing in exile.
(see the further discussion on the thread about the recent karmapa issue)
Already people on the Dalai Lama's "side" are open to investigation and even criticism. his reputation is at risk of being forever stained now. Nothing the Dalai Lama says now has had any affect on the Indian government's investigation. If there is this kind of upheavel now, what more when the dalai lama passes away. It seems like the only one holding the tIbetans together, if at all.
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following what i said above, I wanted to add that this whole thing, what TK has said, lends all the more weight to the fact that we should really spend less time talking and talking about the dalai lama, pointing out his wrongdoings etc Focus on what we CAN DO instead, which is what TK has advised - promote DS, Dharma, lamrim, and all the things that Dalai Lama stood for in the first place which made Tibetan buddhism and practice so big everywhere in the world.
Isn't that what it's all about, after all?
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I am re-reading this thread and it does sends shivers down my spine. What is going to happen once the Dalai Lama passes on the honorable fields. Now, with the Karmapa issue, he is unlikely to succeed and the Panchen Lama in China is too linked with the Chinese government for him to be widely accepted within India. Perhaps another Lama or perhaps no Lama will ever fill the Dalai Lama's shoes. He has already set the groundwork for other great Lamas so now it is for Dorje Shugden to spread the teachings of these Lamas. I remember reading somewhere in this website that the previous Karmapa prophesied that all schools would have to pray to him eventually. I wonder how is that going to take place....
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If we believe in rebirths then the foremost important thing is knowing we are creating the right causes to be reborn in a good place to continue in the path. Why "kill" for a nation and find ourselves in the next life NOT in the place where we have given our lives for.
I like TK's thinking very much that it's Dorje Shugden who will help preserve what's most important which Tibet has to offer,...the Dharma. Yes, it is very exciting to see how Dorje Shugden will start to play more and more of a central role as the principle protector of the Yellow hat.
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Just curious if anyone knows - Before the ban, did all schools used to pray to Dorje Shugden?
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If I'm not mistaken, the schools of Buddhism that used to pray to Dorje Shugden was: Sakya, Gelug, and Drugpa Kagyu (from Bhutan). Those were the ones that had textual evidence.
Other than that, I'm not too sure...
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There's much speculation what and who comes after the Dalai Lama.
The question is what would it be for? To fulfill a gap as a Political Head or Spiritual Head, or are we looking at a combo.
If it's for political reason, Tibet no longer has their own nation. How will China play a role?
In the 50s, Dalai Lama wrote a poem to Chairman Mao, praising him :
O! Chairman Mao! Your brilliance and deeds are like those of Brahma and Mahasammata, creators of the world..
Source: http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/photos/dalai-lamas-hymn-to-mao/ (http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/photos/dalai-lamas-hymn-to-mao/)
What do you make out of this?
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I would not be the least surprised that the institution of the Dalai Lama will end with the current Dalai Lama, when His Holiness passes.
As people's memories are short - most things important today will be forgotten. New events, news and headlines will take over as they always do.
All the Tibetans In Exile will be more worried about their own personal security and welfare, and not about what TGIE wants or does not want.
After the Dalai Lama, there is nothing left for the TGIE to stay in power or control with.
Tibetans will scatter in all the directions of the globe, finding a place for them to start their lives over.
Some may even brave going back to Tibet, China. Who knows.
What's certain - only the Dharma will stay and Dorje Shugden.
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I remember seeing a thangka posted in this website featuring the Guru Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden together.
If all schools did practice Dorje Shugden and with the above thangka, it may include the Nyingmas as well - then, it would not be such a big surprise to later find that all schools will be practising Dorje Shugden again.
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Thank you, TK, for starting this thread of discussion. After the Dalai Lama passes on, there may be no successor. In an interview some time ago, when HH was asked about his successor, he had responded by saying that the Dalai Lama was a man-made institution. Hence, it can come to an end. It need not be continued.
When the Dalai Lama is no more and the whole of the rich Tibetan language, culture and tradition eventually fades away, what remains behind will only be Tibetan Buddhism as is being practiced and spread throughout the rest of the world. A most powerful catalyst for the growth of this Dharma is Dharmapala Dorje Shugden. This Protector of the precious lineage teachings of Je Tsongkhapa which are so vital for the people of this degenerate age, has , not surprisingly been promoted rather vigorously through the ‘skillful’ methods of the Dalai Lama.
Yes, now is the time to step up the promotion of Dorje Shugden’s practice, lineage, Lamas , centers, nature and benefits, and to educate the new Dharma practitioners of this age on this great Protector. As Dharma grows and spreads exponentially through the swift and powerful Protector’s peaceful, increasing, powerful and wrathful activities, more and more people will want to know about Him and do His practice to aid them in their Dharma growth. This forum will see exciting times ahead!
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China has already announced to the world that any reincarnation in the Tibetan lama system needs aproval from the Chinese government, in other words, we can be certain that China will choose their own 15th Dalai Lama.
As for the Tibetans in exile, if there is to be a 15th Dalai Lama, it will take years and decades before his has some influence.
In the world stage, the 15th Dalai Lama will never gain the same recognition, respect and international standing as the current Dalai Lama, even if he is to achieve the same level as the current Dalai Lama, it will take him at least 40-50 years, because 99.9% of the world do not believe in reincarnation, therefore the 15th Dalai Lama will have to prove himself to the world, thus age and maturity play a strong part, simply that nobody will listen to a boy/young man, so, 40-50 years is surely needed.
By then, the voice against Dorje Shugden from the 14th Dalai Lama will fade, and the voice, if any, from the 15th Dalai Lama in this matter will be too insignificant, not among Tibetans in exile, not in the rest of the world, not in China (maybe the China's 15th Dalai Lama will even promote Dorje Shugden, in line with the current China government's policy!)
Dorje Shugden practice by then will already be fluorishing in monasteries with the new lineage - the pure Gelugpa with Dorje Shugden lineage, it will be a RENAISSANCE!
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After the Dalai Lama = The Time of Dorje Shugden
Only Dorje Shugden can bring about the Renaissance that you so rightly wrote about.
This gives me great hope and joy.
Thank you for this, Mana.
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Just read this article below - the Dalai Lama is still declaring that he will see Tibet gain independence in his lifetime but he adds that it will be a win-win situation and that he jokingly says that he also wants to join the Chinese Communist party. A very complicated situation indeed... I don't think many Tibetans believe him anymore regarding independence since it's been too long that the Dalai Lama has said that independence will come and it hasn't...
http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/650-i-describe-indians-as-guru-we-chelas-learn-from-you-dalai-lama
I describe Indians as guru, we chelas learn from you: Dalai Lama
February 19th 2011
Mumbai, Maharashtra, India, 19 February 2011 (By Hemali Chhapia, TNN) - For a snow-shrouded Tibet, here's something that will thaw its heart.
"Yes, I will see a free Tibet in my lifetime. I am confident about that. More and more Chinese are supporting the Tibetan cause than ever before," the 14th Dalai Lama, who was in the city on Friday, told TOI.
The Nobel laureate spoke at the Gothic Cowasjee Jehangir Convocation Hall of the University of Mumbai as sun rays streamed in through the stained glass panel above. Before he started his talks, the university vice-chancellor, Rajan Welukar, honoured him with a garland that came all the way from Gujarat. More importantly, the environmentally friendly garland of cotton fibre was used by Mahatma Gandhi.
The University wanted to have the Dalai Lama here on October 2 to inaugurate a student-driven initiative to work for social causes.
After a lecture on "Ancient Wisdom and Modern Thoughts" and a discourse with students, the Dalai Lama had a conversation with TOI about the land that is long awaiting freedom. With more and more Chinese championing the cause of Tibetans, the movement will usher in the final chapter of the land's long struggle that will end soon, he said. "And so, it is my belief that it will not be a loss for one and triumph for another. It will be a victory for all." He also had a joke about a changed China: "I told the Chinese authorities that I want to join Chinese Communist Party."
"Now in China, genuine socialism is no longer there; a communist party without communist ideology. Capitalist communism: this is new. I heard that the life of some Indian communists and a few leaders of the Indian communist party is more bourgeois than socialist."
Praising India, he said it didn't need to look out for answers. "Indian civilization, when compared to the western and Chinese civilizations, is much more sophisticated. It is the world's treasure." He repeatedly described himself as a chela of Indian tradition. "I describe Indians as the guru, we (Tibetans) are chelas of Indian guru," he said. "Essentially we learn from you."
But as an honest friend, he said it was essential to rid all the systems of some evils: "Caste, dowry, discrimination, these may be a part of your tradition but they are outdated, and must change. The youth must change some of these! From your chela, this is constructive criticism. Sometimes, you are a little bit lazy. You must be more hard-working; work with full self-confidence."
DEEPER THOUGHTS:
Modern education system does not pay attention to wholeheartedness. Teaching ethics without touching the religious space is important
Life based on material wealth with no roots in affection is a delusion
Secularism does not mean disrespect of religion, but equal respect for all religions
Business people also come from society, we need a change at the fundamental level, and now in the west, some educationists are really questioning the educational system
Technology provides physical comfort and spiritual development mental comfort
The real change in India needs to happen in its rural areas, in its old villages
The desire for peace is very strong. People proudly joined when the World Wars broke out. That situation has changed. Before the Iraq crisis, think of how many people came out against using force. It's a sign of change: non-violence.
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I agree with TK that Tibet will never gain independence or autonomy.
With due respect, after HH Dalai Lama passes on and through time, the controversy will just fade away.
HH Dalai Lama has created such a big controversy that Dorje Shugden is so well known. Now more and more people are learning about Dorje Shugden from reliable website and understand the benefits of Dorje Shugden practice. Could it be HH plan to create the cause for Dorje Shugden practice to grow after he passes on? I am not sure, but time will tell.
In this degenerate times, we need Dorje Shugden to help preserve the Dharma. So as advised by TK, let us promote Dorje Shugden and the Dharma. Now is the time to make Tibetan Buddhism and Dorje Shugden practice grow big everywhere in the world! How? By educating the new practitioners on Dorje Shugden’s practice and its benefits, posting up reliable information on the website to share with others.
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Despite the recent appointment of a new Kalon Tripa, Lobsang Sangay, to head the TGIE, the cause and struggle for freedom of Tibet from Chinese rule does not seem likely to succeed. The new Kalon Tripa has announced that he will continue the policy of peaceful negotiations with the Chinese government for autonomy for Tibet. However, if the Chinese have refused to negotiate with the Dalai Lama, it is hard to imagine that the new Kalon Tripa, the new political leader of Tibet(in exile) will succeed with them. This shows that TK is correct in asserting that Tibet is unlikely to become an independent state or country in the near and distant future.
So we now have to recognize and accept the reality of Tibetan Buddhism as being practiced outside of Tibet by people in the rest of the world, as well as the reality of the arising of a new lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. Today, as far as we can see, the force behind the spread of Tibetan Buddhism outside of Tibet is the current Dalai Lama. What happens to Tibetan Buddhism when the Dalai Lama passes on?
Even if a new incarnate Dalai Lama were to be recognized( whether it be the one dictated by China as the successor or even the successor recognized and legitimized via the traditional oracle system and according to the conditions that the present Dalai Lama is going to put in place ) as the Fifteenth Dalai Lama, as Mana says, this young successor will need at least 40-50 years before he can even achieve the stature and international renown of the 14th Dalai Lama. So what will happen to the future of Tibetan Buddhism in this long interim period?
Fortunately, we have Dorje Shugden, the Protector of this degenerate age, whose time is now!
Dorje Shugden 's practice is spreading far and wide, despite the ban on his practice imposed by the Dalai Lama. True earnest practitioners of Dharma, who believe in Dorje Shugden as the Dharma Protector of this age , have and must continue to engage in his practice and spread the lineage of Je Tsongkapa's teachings, so very necessary for the people of this degenerate age.
When the Dalai Lama is no more, the voice against the practice of Dorje Shugden will be silenced. There will then be no holds barred in the spread of the pure complete Dharma teachings of Je Tsongkapa's and the Gelug lineage, and the practice of this lineage's Protector, Dorje Shugden.
But we must start now to educate people and to promote Dorje Shugden through this website and this forum. Instead of bashing anti-Shugdenists, we should talk about the Dorje Shugen practice and its benefits. We should focus on the lineage, the Lamas, the centers and monasteries practicing Dorje Shugden. Let us carry everyone on this irrepressible great wave of Dharma growth and spread and be ever ready to hail the dawn, which will come soon, of the Renaissance(as described by Mana)of a new Tibetan Buddhism lineage - a combined force of the pure Gelug Lineage with the Dorje Shugden Lineage!
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Promoting Dorje Shugden's practice now is very important. I understand wny there are pockets of people around the world coming up with new ideas such as giving away brochures, pendants, comic books and so on. Dfferent ideas attract different mind sets.
The focus is creating lots of awareness and making info regarding Dorje Shugden readily available in order to eradicate all false accusations. When people begin to experience the benefits of Dorje Shugden's blessings, they will become more convincing spokespersons. This will create many ripple effects.
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After the Dalai Lama, I believe that the ban will definitely be lifted after a short while. I believe that Tibetan Buddhism will spread far and wide because of the ban lifting. Thank you, TK, for making this article. I think that Tibetan Buddhism is not limited to Tibetans anymore. In fact, Tibetan Buddhism seems to be able to touch more non-Tibetans. Because of Dorje Shugden's practice, millions, if not billions, will benefit.
Anyways, I think that the Tibetan government will not last long. No offense but I think it will really go bye-bye after this Dalai Lama.
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Tibet will never get autonomy. Tibet will never gain independence. :( Only Dorje Shugden can give them a glimmer of hope toward preservation of Buddha Dharma in Tibet itself.
After this Dalai Lama passes, all the Tibetans in Tibet will become Chinese. Their voices for independence will fade. All the Tibetans in India who have money will make a scramble to countries outside of India. The Tibetans living abroad and outside of Tibet will lose their language, culture and become mixed into the mainstream culture of their adopted country like every other immigrant. The Tibetans in India will just worry about survival.
Tibetan Buddhism will ironically truly exist outside of most Tibetans. Dorje Shugden will grow in reputation and not any lama in the future will have the power to speak against him. The Dalai Lama did this. Watch as the 'show' unfolds. :(
So let's talk about everything related to Dorje Shugden's practice, lineage, lamas, centres, nature and benefits on this forum to start the education of the new wave of dharma practitioners who will have heard of Dorje Shugden and want to know more. :)
Homage to Dorje Shugden who although intangible to the untrained perciever arising from Dharmakaya has become tangible by someone in rupakaya named Dalai Lama. It will be exciting times ahead. So let's keep working hard here to make it happen.
TK
Thank you TK you always have good foresight and I believe what you said. Yes! Let us focus on Dorje Shugden and make Dorje Shugden a big hit and has a huge fanfare in the world. Life is worthless without being useful to Dorje Shugden.
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what i dont exactly understand is, it is very clear that Dorje Shugden does not belong to just the Gelugs, but to Buddhism in general and his practice has been found in all 4 traditions. He helped to perserve those traditions when propitiated, and then conveniently forgotten in place of more "powerful" protectors. When the Gelugs adopted him and Gelug got big and powerful, they got jealous and went against their old ally citing flimsy reasons to cover their jealousy.
In time they will rediscover him in the form of Termas, but it would be a bit too late then.
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Dear Ensapa
Are you saying that the other traditions became jealous of Dorje Shugden? I hadn't heard of that before although I had known of the acrimony towards Dorje Shugden by some Nyingmapas and that there were images of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. However i know that not all Nyingmapas were against Dorje Shugden and several high lamas of the Nyingma tradition, such as HH Penor Rinpoche, had been more than forthcoming in supporting monks who had been ostracised because of their sole 'crime' of being Dorje Shugden practitioners. I also read a story in the forum about the 16th Karmapa not being happy when he saw an image of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden.
Are there other instances of jealousy of Dorje Shugden?
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Dear Ensapa
Are you saying that the other traditions became jealous of Dorje Shugden? I hadn't heard of that before although I had known of the acrimony towards Dorje Shugden by some Nyingmapas and that there were images of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. However i know that not all Nyingmapas were against Dorje Shugden and several high lamas of the Nyingma tradition, such as HH Penor Rinpoche, had been more than forthcoming in supporting monks who had been ostracised because of their sole 'crime' of being Dorje Shugden practitioners. I also read a story in the forum about the 16th Karmapa not being happy when he saw an image of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden.
Are there other instances of jealousy of Dorje Shugden?
The most evident of them would be they being against Dorje Shugden citing reasons like "sectarianism". A Nygima lama i have met a long time ago told me "there are 2 Gelugs, one good and one bad. go for the good one" with obvious reference to this issue when i told him my affinity is with Gelug. But i am very happy to hear about how Penor Rinpoche and Karmapa showing their support for Shugden. They have not forgotten their old friend.
This is a certain protection amulet from a certain nyigma master. Notice how the "gyalpo" has a hat. they are normally not depicted this way. Why the hat? who is he made to resemble?
(http://budda.net.pl/images/DudjomTersar_protection%20amulet.jpg)
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More proof from wikipedia:
Views of non-Gelugpa Tibetan Buddhists
Dorje Shugden has traditionally been regarded as a protector especially of the Gelugpa tradition. The other schools of Tibetan Buddhism have therefore usually not worshipped him or even, in the historical context of (political) rivalry, have seen him as a potential threat.[citation needed]
Sakya Trizin, head of the Sakya lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, notes that at one time followers of his school did make offerings to Shugden but that, in this context, Shugden was regarded as a worldly deity. He also mentions two Lamas of pre-occupation Tibet, Dorjechang Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro and Ngor Kangchen Dorjechang, who limited the practice in their monasteries,[102] confirming the existence of the practice within that tradition up to that time.
Palpung Tai Situ Rinpoche, one of the most important Lamas in the Karma Kagyu tradition has said that the practice of Shugden "causes fear." He adds the practice is considered to create obstacles to spiritual practice.[103]
While traditionally, the relationship between Shugden and the Nyingma is one of enmity, there is some evidence of latter day Nyingma[104] practitioners in Nepal having received and propitiated Dorje Shugden via a patriarchal rather than politico-institutional lineage. Mumford writes based on his anthropological studies in Nepal in the late 1970s:
Tibetans in Kathmandu regard Shugs-ldan as a guardian honored by those who adhere to the Gelug sect, while members of the Nyingma sect think of Shug-ldan as an enemy, sent against them by the rival sect. But in the villages these sectarian differences are not well understood. In Gyasumdo the lamas are Nyingmapa, yet most of them honor Shugs-ldan as a lineage guardian picked up in Tibet in the past by their patriline.[105]
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu claims that Shugden can cause devotees to become "nervous, confused and upset."[106] Minling Trichen Rinpoche, late head of the Nyingma tradition,[107] said that "Shugden is a ghost. We Nyingma practitioner do not follow him. We propagate only those protectors that were bound by Padmasambhava. Shugden came after Padmasambhava."[108]