dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DSFriend on February 25, 2011, 08:23:12 AM
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The following is extracted from :
Source : http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5878
Dorje Shugden in 3,211 words or less
One of the vows associated with the initiation into Dorje Shugden practice is that the practitioner will only study the Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa, and will not study or practice philosophy or ritual from any of the other three schools of Buddhism. One can easily see how this would be interpreted as Sectarianism.
Dorje Shugden is being blamed and practitioners accused of being sectarian just because we focus on the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa! I do get this remark ones in awhile and holding back from firing off a sarcastic remark sure can be a test of patience!
Where is the logic in this?! To start with, Je Tsongkhapa is an Enlightened being, prophesied by Buddha Shakyamuni that he will come to revive Dharma in this degenerate times. If anyone's a Buddhist, we would know of the 84000 methods to obtain happiness and liberation.
Now, let's then focus on all 84000 methods, in order to not be sectarian?? It's totally illogical.
And who says whatever else we are NOT practicing is considered bad. It doesn't mean just because we are Gelugpas, then the Kagyus/Sakyas/Ningmas are wrong or bad. Why should it be viewed that way?
View of duality at play?
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I thought that a Dorje Shugden practitioner may study the philosophy and rituals from the other three schools of Buddhism, BUT should focus more energy into the Gelug school??
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Sorry another question: If someone was from the Sakya lineage but had read up on Dorje Shugden, felt some connection and wanted to practice His practice - would he/she have to change schools... or like I wrote above, focus more energy into the Gelug school instead?
Thanks.
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I thought that a Dorje Shugden practitioner may study the philosophy and rituals from the other three schools of Buddhism, BUT should focus more energy into the Gelug school??
That's what I thought too ??? I read about this from the transcript of a video of Zong Rinpoche, giving explanation before conferring Dorje Shugden initiations. (Video: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7106 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7106) )
After receiving this Dorje Shugden initiation, you have to do puja once a month. Also, it is necessary to follow the commitment, and you have to make a commitment with the lineage and with the order.
So that means, for example you [might] receive teachings from different traditions but mainly, your practice, your focus, your energy [should be put] into this lineage, the Gelugpa lineage.
From: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1062.0
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I think it is not right to say that committing towards a tradition is sectarian. I believe that the initiation (sogtae) text was probably written and composed with Gelug practitioners in mind. If other traditions like the Sakyas had embraced Dorje Shugden in the past, I am sure their commitments would be to their lineage as well. So, the High Lamas of respective traditions just have to composed their own text to authenticate the initiation of Dorje Shugden within their own traditions. I believe that will one day happen and Dorje Shugden will become a truly universal Dharma Protector.
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Yes, I've heard this accusation many times and read many things about Dorje Shugden practitioners (or somethings even Gelugpa practitioners in general) being sectarian because they do not study /practice the teachings of other schools.
This is completely illogical. Just because you focus on the teachings of your school it does not mean in any way that it is at the expense of another school. Yes, gelugpas may focus on the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa, but it does not mean that they put down, criticise, attack or do anything to the teachings or practitioners of other schools.
This is the same across the board in all schools. Sakya practitioners focus on the sakya teachings, and it would not be wrong for them if they choose not to take teachings from any of the other three schools. It is the same for the Nyingmas and for the Kagyus. There are so many sub-sects within the Kagyus - I am quite sure that many would focus on their own teachings and lineage and not take teachings from ALL the sects of the kagyus - does this make them sectarian too? I don't think so.
It is like, if you study in Harvard, you don't also need to go for teachings at Stanford, Princeton, NYU and UCLA. If you stayed only in Harvard and focused your entire study there, you aren't labelled an exclusivist or sectarian! Maybe, after you have graduated and you want to pursue further study, you might choose to go to another college to study. It is the same in the buddhist schools. If you are qualified, stable in your learning and of a high level of learning, then your teachers may advise that you take certain teachings from teachers of other schools. This is all very dependent on the student, his level of learning and what his teacher feels would be most beneficial for his learning. There is nothing sectarian about a student who chooses to stay with one teacher in his one monastery following only one lineage.
Believe it or not - many practitioners want to just PRACTICE and are not interested in the politics! It looks like the only ones being sectarian are the ones making the accusation.
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Sorry another question: If someone was from the Sakya lineage but had read up on Dorje Shugden, felt some connection and wanted to practice His practice - would he/she have to change schools... or like I wrote above, focus more energy into the Gelug school instead?
Thanks.
That is actually a good question indeed...
Dorje Shugden has obvious and strong connections with the sakyas, that is for sure.
Perhaps, we can see it like this, the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa countains ALL of the Buddha's teaching, therefore it would not make sense to label it a sectarian doctrine, it should actually be the contrary. Shouldn't it???
How can ANY buddhist school be sectarian anyway, it does not sound "buddhist" to be sectarian, in the sense of sectarian as "dogmatic or narrow-minded", two things that buddhist teachings are working against.
I like a lot what beggar just posted:
"It looks like the only ones being sectarian are the ones making the accusation."
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Personally, it has nothing to do with sectarianism.
As it is, just studying or learning from one school is hard enough. Just mastering one simple practice from our Guru is already so challenging - how can we truly master when we do not concentrate or focus on one.
I do not think a lineage can be passed on from one generation to another if everyone becomes a "Jack of all trades but Master of None".
While we are still learning, it can get confusing and very challenging. If we keep hopping from one school or practice or path to another, how will we ever truly progress?
I think there is a real danger when we haven't mastered anything and we are so busy in picking up other practices.
Hence, following one path from beginning to the end would help us become masters of our path - whichever it is that we choose.
If Sakya-pa is the one for you, then great. Devote yourself to it and master it.
If Gelug-pa is the one for you, then do the same and may you truly transform.
In every school, a lama or Guru is sole responsible for the student.
If the student moves from one to another, then who is ultimately responsible for this student?
I believe, at the end of the day, it is really for the benefit of the student's spiritual progress and well-being to have one Guru, one path and go all the way until we reach Enlightenment.
That is the whole point, right?
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I do not think a lineage can be passed on from one generation to another if everyone becomes a "Jack of all trades but Master of None".
:) certainly true for us who are controlled by the Monkey mind!
If Sakya-pa is the one for you, then great. Devote yourself to it and master it.
If Gelug-pa is the one for you, then do the same and may you truly transform.
In every school, a lama or Guru is sole responsible for the student.
If the student moves from one to another, then who is ultimately responsible for this student?
I believe, at the end of the day, it is really for the benefit of the student's spiritual progress and well-being to have one Guru, one path and go all the way until we reach Enlightenment.
That is the whole point, right?
Absolutely. The key is Guru Devotion...without it, where can we gain attainments.
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Sectarianism is defined in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism) as "according to one definition, is bigotry, discrimination or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or factions of a political movement.
The ideological underpinnings of attitudes and behaviors labeled as sectarian are extraordinarily varied. Members of a religious or political group may believe that their own salvation, or the success of their particular objectives, requires aggressively seeking converts from other groups; adherents of a given faction may believe that for the achievement of their own political or religious project their internal opponents must be purged."
From the above, my interpretation of sectarianism is that it only occurs if it creates any form of negative emotion about another group. As far as i can tell, personally i have not heard of a Dorje Shugden practitioner criticise another Buddhist school. The most virulent and frequently expressed criticism is aimed squarely at the most famous Gelugpa Lama in the world, HH the 14th Dalai Lama.
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The most virulent and frequently expressed criticism is aimed squarely at the most famous Gelugpa Lama in the world, HH the 14th Dalai Lama.
Interestingly also, and this is something I often talk about, if you look at the most influential, beneficial and "famous" Dorje Shugden practitioners and teachers in the world, they are NOT uttering a single bad word or criticism against the Dalai Lama or any other school or lama. They are loyal to their own lineage practices and teachings but NOT at the expense of other schools/teachers/teachings. You will notice that no matter what abuse and obstacles are hurled at them for their practice of Dorje Shugden, it has not spurred them on in any way to react and speak negatively against any other lama or even any individual who has harmed them. And these are the very people that are accused of being sectarian? I don't see how this can logically be so.
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Interestingly also, and this is something I often talk about, if you look at the most influential, beneficial and "famous" Dorje Shugden practitioners and teachers in the world, they are NOT uttering a single bad word or criticism against the Dalai Lama or any other school or lama. They are loyal to their own lineage practices and teachings but NOT at the expense of other schools/teachers/teachings. You will notice that no matter what abuse and obstacles are hurled at them for their practice of Dorje Shugden, it has not spurred them on in any way to react and speak negatively against any other lama or even any individual who has harmed them. And these are the very people that are accused of being sectarian? I don't see how this can logically be so.
Can't agree with you more Beggar. Sure does show the Buddhist way of teachings and living. It is the 14th Dalai Lama now, getting all the negative press. Who will be next to put on the "shooting range". There is no stopping ones we start going down this path of bashing lamas.
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Interestingly also, and this is something I often talk about, if you look at the most influential, beneficial and "famous" Dorje Shugden practitioners and teachers in the world, they are NOT uttering a single bad word or criticism against the Dalai Lama or any other school or lama. They are loyal to their own lineage practices and teachings but NOT at the expense of other schools/teachers/teachings. You will notice that no matter what abuse and obstacles are hurled at them for their practice of Dorje Shugden, it has not spurred them on in any way to react and speak negatively against any other lama or even any individual who has harmed them. And these are the very people that are accused of being sectarian? I don't see how this can logically be so.
That is really true - completely agree with you!
That's what I thought too ??? I read about this from the transcript of a video of Zong Rinpoche, giving explanation before conferring Dorje Shugden initiations. (Video: [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7106[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7106[/url]) )
After receiving this Dorje Shugden initiation, you have to do puja once a month. Also, it is necessary to follow the commitment, and you have to make a commitment with the lineage and with the order.
So that means, for example you [might] receive teachings from different traditions but mainly, your practice, your focus, your energy [should be put] into this lineage, the Gelugpa lineage.
From: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1062.0[/url]
What Zong Rinpoche advised seems to be quite apt then. Considering what beggar said about how if you studied at Harvard, you can hop around different universities to listen to guest lectures here and there, but your main study will be at that university - it's seems to be the same. It is at that university where you'll attain results and where you will graduate from. One school keeps you on a steady and progressive path, and also so that you stay unconfused in your practice.
I find it hard enough to practice teachings within my school, I can't imagine learning things from other schools on top of what I'm learning now!!
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Actually, I read that if one were to go from one teacher to the next, that would mean that we have already mastered all the teachings the first teacher gave you. Hence, if we were to go from one lineage to the next, it would mean that we have mastered all the teachings within that tradition. Now, that would be quite impossible unless we are the determination and merits of Lama Tsongkhapa, Atisha or someone as great. If we are not at their level, it would be good to stick to one tradition and one Lama or just a minimal few. No point jumping from Lama to Lama because it would just make our spiritual practice a very superficial one.
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Sectarian or not is a matter of how one interprets the subject. When one says the other is sectarian, one has already associated himself to be different. And that is one of the problem In this world now, we are actually all the same, we all want the same thing,,....happiness, don't we?
In the religious world,I believe all religions teach their practitioners to have the same basic good human qualities.......kindness, loving, compassion,forgiving, patience, tolerence, acceptance, peace, harmony..................and so on and so on. Whichever religion suits you, that is the path and way you choose and hope that it will lead you to develope those qualities to true happiness.
Buddha Shakyamuni teaches 84000 methods to achieve liberation, because Buddha Shakyamuni already knows the diversities of our human delusions. So it is like all roads lead to Rome, you choose which one you find suitable. I don't see any sectarianism in achieving happiness and liberations, it is just different methods to suit our diversities of appetites. We will all have a full stomach at the end of the meal, and likewise, true happiness at the end of our spiritual journey.
All problems lie in the fact that we think we are right.............and you are wrong, we are better........ and you are worse.
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Believe it or not - many practitioners want to just PRACTICE and are not interested in the politics! It looks like the only ones being sectarian are the ones making the accusation.
Totally! Tibetan Buddhism is a huge dose of what seems to be political... knowing about it was confusing and caused uneasiness to my mind. However, I find the more I read and try to understand what all these politics are about, ironically... it becomes less confusing. I think politics in Tibetan Buddhism could be a method in itself...
Politics and religion is not something i am comfortable with, but am keeping an open mind without letting it affect my practice.
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I'd say this short and sweet:
BEING SECTARIAN IS AT THE OPPOSITE END OF BEING SPIRITUAL
*sectarian in the sense of having attachment to one's "group" and aversion to another
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I'd say this short and sweet:
BEING SECTARIAN IS AT THE OPPOSITE END OF BEING SPIRITUAL
*sectarian in the sense of having attachment to one's "group" and aversion to another
Exactly, "EQUANIMITY" is what all spiritual seekers should try to practise. One way to achieve it is to think of ways we are similiar rather than ways we are different.
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I'd say this short and sweet:
BEING SECTARIAN IS AT THE OPPOSITE END OF BEING SPIRITUAL
*sectarian in the sense of having attachment to one's "group" and aversion to another
Isn't it sad how we fall into the trap that by showing loyalty or devotion to one is often seen as being negative towards the other.
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The following is extracted from :
Source : [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5878[/url]
Dorje Shugden in 3,211 words or less
One of the vows associated with the initiation into Dorje Shugden practice is that the practitioner will only study the Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa, and will not study or practice philosophy or ritual from any of the other three schools of Buddhism. One can easily see how this would be interpreted as Sectarianism.
Dorje Shugden is being blamed and practitioners accused of being sectarian just because we focus on the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa! I do get this remark ones in awhile and holding back from firing off a sarcastic remark sure can be a test of patience!
Where is the logic in this?! To start with, Je Tsongkhapa is an Enlightened being, prophesied by Buddha Shakyamuni that he will come to revive Dharma in this degenerate times. If anyone's a Buddhist, we would know of the 84000 methods to obtain happiness and liberation.
Now, let's then focus on all 84000 methods, in order to not be sectarian?? It's totally illogical.
And who says whatever else we are NOT practicing is considered bad. It doesn't mean just because we are Gelugpas, then the Kagyus/Sakyas/Ningmas are wrong or bad. Why should it be viewed that way?
View of duality at play?
The vows associated with practising only Je Tsongkapa Dharma after receiving initiation of DS is not meant to be sectarian but rather to be of benefit to the practitioners. All valid buddhist traditions are paths to enlightenment just as different routes to the top of the mountain. Ultimately the goal is the same.
However, if we put all our energy into how to progress along one tradition, we will definitely progress faster than if we were to disperse our energy trying to figure out how to progress along a few other traditions. It is more of a question of efficiency in practice that this vow is given I believe. Since DS is specifically the protector of the Je Tsongkapa tradition, definitely if we concentrate on Je Tsongkapa Dharma, he will be able to help us faster. We would progress faster this way rather than switching back and forth different traditions and not moving forward.
Just like climbing a mountain, if we keep switching our routes, we will never get to the top of the mountain. However, if we choose one route and go all the way with it, plus if we know for sure someone or something along that particular route can help us, we will definitely reach the top faster. Hence, the vow of only studying the Je Tsongkapa Dharma after receiving DS initiation. This is my own little theory, Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Sectarian or not is a matter of how one interprets the subject. When one says the other is sectarian, one has already associated himself to be different. And that is one of the problem In this world now, we are actually all the same, we all want the same thing,,....happiness, don't we?
In the religious world,I believe all religions teach their practitioners to have the same basic good human qualities.......kindness, loving, compassion,forgiving, patience, tolerence, acceptance, peace, harmony..................and so on and so on. Whichever religion suits you, that is the path and way you choose and hope that it will lead you to develope those qualities to true happiness.
Buddha Shakyamuni teaches 84000 methods to achieve liberation, because Buddha Shakyamuni already knows the diversities of our human delusions. So it is like all roads lead to Rome, you choose which one you find suitable. I don't see any sectarianism in achieving happiness and liberations, it is just different methods to suit our diversities of appetites. We will all have a full stomach at the end of the meal, and likewise, true happiness at the end of our spiritual journey.
All problems lie in the fact that we think we are right.............and you are wrong, we are better........ and you are worse.
@Triesa You express yourself really well. I whole-heartedly agree with what you have said.
Buddhism has 84,000 paths to enlightenment - so being on "one path" cannot be considered as encouraging sectarianism. It's like if my housemate and I drove to university - she took one route and I took another, one drives a Honda and the other a Ford. We will still arrive at the same destination. Neither one is wrong to take a different route.
Again like what Triesa wrote, even when considering all religions being in Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity - we all want the same thing: happiness.
Politics and religion is not something i am comfortable with, but am keeping an open mind without letting it affect my practice.
@DSFriend In this day and age, you cannot be involved in anything that is free from politics anymore. We cannot even practice the great Dorje Shugden's practice openly. I'm sure people out there are getting restless and agitated as to when the time comes when Dorje Shugden is openly propitiated!
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@DSFriend In this day and age, you cannot be involved in anything that is free from politics anymore. We cannot even practice the great Dorje Shugden's practice openly. I'm sure people out there are getting restless and agitated as to when the time comes when Dorje Shugden is openly propitiated!
Oh yes Jessicajameson!! Count me in as one of those restless, agitated folks! I'm restless and anxious with excitement looking forward to the day when Dorje Shugden can be propitiated and practiced without persecutions. My simple logic tells me that much harmony will come about at that time too.
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I wish we could stop seeing the difference between us. Between different faiths, different lineages etc.
Especially when we are in the same lineage - we are Dorje Shugden practitioners - and yet instead of looking at how we can be harmonious and support each other, there are those who love to judge us, mock us, criticise us and curse us. And that to me, is really what being sectarian means. Very sad. :(
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I wish we could stop seeing the difference between us. Between different faiths, different lineages etc.
Especially when we are in the same lineage - we are Dorje Shugden practitioners - and yet instead of looking at how we can be harmonious and support each other, there are those who love to judge us, mock us, criticise us and curse us. And that to me, is really what being sectarian means. Very sad. :(
The only way I know of to clear wrong views is to develop ourselves with qualities Dorje Shugden practitioners should have...irregardless of the persecutions, mockeries, etc... That'll be a reflection of our beloved Dharma King Dorje Shugden. May our protector clear obstacles that we will have realizations and attainments to be of true benefit to others.
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Just like climbing a mountain, if we keep switching our routes, we will never get to the top of the mountain. However, if we choose one route and go all the way with it, plus if we know for sure someone or something along that particular route can help us, we will definitely reach the top faster. Hence, the vow of only studying the Je Tsongkapa Dharma after receiving DS initiation.
A path is only a path, it is not the result.
Many paths of many sorts can seem to go different directions and end up to the same result.
If we keep focused on the result, we won't develop attachment to our path and harmful intents to other's paths.
All of the Buddha's teachings lead to enlightenment.
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I wish we could stop seeing the difference between us. Between different faiths, different lineages etc.
Especially when we are in the same lineage - we are Dorje Shugden practitioners - and yet instead of looking at how we can be harmonious and support each other, there are those who love to judge us, mock us, criticise us and curse us. And that to me, is really what being sectarian means. Very sad. :(
Well said, WB! I heartily agree!
When we cannot even get along well within the already ostracized small Shugden community, we are so busy pointing fingers at other groups and communities telling them to be respectful and harmonious? It is a joke, really.
Stop the internal bickering first and foremost, then become a good example of what it means NOT TO BE SECTARIAN by doing everything that our Lord Protector has done all his entire lineage of incarnations no matter how badly and harshly he has been treated - and yet, Dorje Shugden criticizes no one, not even those who have so-called hurt him and tried to kill him many times over. Dorje Shugden does not exclude anyone, nor does he ever abandon anyone.
Can we just follow the foot-steps of our great Protector?
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It is always the case for all of us. We only see fault, problems and negativities in everything no matter how pure the object is. That is the nature of Samsara and the way our ego works. We don't wanna see that following a single path is actually an excellent way to release ourselves from Samsara.
This is especially true for the path of Tantra and since our mind is so unstable, having several Gurus already is very bad and if we dare to mix lineages, we would be lost in the confusion of presentation. Each sect presents the path differently and how are we to gain anything from our practice. This is actually extremely dangerous and I see the logic in just stick to one Lama and practice.
We are not Lama Tsongkhapa or any high Lama, in which we can discern the path ourselves. So being a stickler to one path is an excellent way achieve something in our practice. I don't see anything wrong with committing to one sect upon receiving Dorje Shugden initiation. It is actually a very wise and well-thought out commitment to make.
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I wish we could stop seeing the difference between us. Between different faiths, different lineages etc.
I do agree...differences are not necessarily bad, but how our negative critical mind works is bad.
In the initial scope of the Lamrim, the teachings are presented to us in that it is the best. We do know that there are other lineages, with practices which are different but all leads to similar result, liberation. It is taught to us that the Lamrim which we have been so fortunate to come in contact with is the best,.. and the reason is to help us gain faith in the teachings. If we do not think it is the best, then why should we study and accept the instructions. Aren't we wasting our time when we should study and practice what we think is the best then.
There will always be differences, and each will say that theirs is the best....and that should be the way. It doesn't mean others' are bad just because we think ours is the best and vice versa.
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One of the vows associated with the initiation into Dorje Shugden practice is that the practitioner will only study the Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa, and will not study or practice philosophy or ritual from any of the other three schools of Buddhism. One can easily see how this would be interpreted as Sectarianism.]
The vows associated with only studying the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa for those with initation of Dorje Shugden practice is so that practitioners can concentrate on learning and mastering one school of Buddhism in order that results from the study and practice can be achieve quickly. Every school of Buddhism has their own unique style of presentation but ultimately all of it will lead to the same goal which is enlightenment.
It is only logical that we concentrate our study and practice within one school as that is the most efficient way of achieving results. For eg if we were to climb a mountain, there are several routes to the top. If we climb up one route and half way we decide to climb down and use another route, we would waste a lot of time and can even get lost. Similarly, if we follow one school of practice all the way, it would be the fastest way to achieve our intended results without wasting time and getting confused.
The vow associated with studying only Je Tsongkapa Dharma for Dorje Shugden initiates is natural as Dorje Shugden is the protector of Je Tsongkapa's doctrine. It is not meant to be sectarian, but for practitioner to achieve results in their practice the fastest and most efficient way.
Furthermore, like other schools of Buddhism, Je Tsongkapa Dharma has a proven track record and there many practitioners and Lamas within this tradition who have achieved great results in their practice.
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Every school if Buddhism is legitimate and valid. However different they appear to be. The difference becomes poignant and even important because people like us make it so. Due to our own personal preferences and experiences, we choose to accept or not accept something or someone. Many a times, it is very personal. However, when we put a group of people with similar preferences and experiences, they start to think that they are right and they begin to dictate what they perceive as absolute. But in truth, everyone is already flawed in their own perception. Because it is still governed by their own personal motives, desires, expectations and etc.
I have come to realise that the more people act in an in secure manner, the more personal interests they have in that object or issue. They need as much support and help as they can get so that what they want to believe in or achieve gets accomplished. Most people have personal interests in something or someone. Some even stand to gain on a personal level. Hence, they have a stronger desire or reason to maintain a certain view or issue or even rule/policy.
If following one path is considered Sectarian, then let's see how all schools of Tibetan Buddhism would react if HHDL asked every head of each school to abdicate having a head of their respective school. There would be no need for a Karmapa or a Sakya Trizin, etc. We do not need all these heads propagating over-looking one particular school then. We can immediately dissolve all of them and give all power to HHDL or the Prime Minister.
Truth is, we know it will not be done and cannot be done. There will be a serious chaos, if it indeed happen.
Each school stands as a method or path for people of the like minds to enter the spiritual journey. It is not the one path which presents the sectarian attitude and mindset. It is the people of a certain path which makes it sectarian. Again, it is politics. Games people play to bring about what they wish to accomplish for their own personal interests or the goals of their group.
For the rest of us, it is really up to all the different individuals to wake up and open their eyes to all this political games or not. And if we do open our eyes and minds, it is truly with the Dharma and not without.
The only way to end a conflict that enables everyone to benefit equally is the Dharma way.
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Where is the logic in this?! To start with, Je Tsongkhapa is an Enlightened being, prophesied by Buddha Shakyamuni that he will come to revive Dharma in this degenerate times. If anyone's a Buddhist, we would know of the 84000 methods to obtain happiness and liberation.
Now, let's then focus on all 84000 methods, in order to not be sectarian?? It's totally illogical.
And who says whatever else we are NOT practicing is considered bad. It doesn't mean just because we are Gelugpas, then the Kagyus/Sakyas/Ningmas are wrong or bad. Why should it be viewed that way?
View of duality at play?
If Buddha Shakyamuni has 84000 methods to enlightenment, does it mean practitioner of one method views the others as sectarian?
Like DS Friend said, totally illogical. I agree.
Example : We go to an international buffet, we are all hungry, and we want our stomach to be full. You like noodles, he likes pasta, she like fried rice and I like potatoes. We are all happy and full when we come out. Why push the other to eat what they dont like when they can have other foods that will equally serve the same purpose.....a full stomach at the end.
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Much criticism has been leveled at dorje shugden practitioners unfairly as being sectarian. To quote an incident in the past was during the escape from India many monks, lamas of all traditions congregated at Buxaduar, there were about 1500 monks and there were no sign or any inter sect tension despite many of the gelug monks were strong practitioners of Dorje Shugden. In fact the harmony among the monks at Buxaduar was very well known.
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What a load of nonsense. Im only just about regular with my sadhana and my commitments to my guru, and now they want me to do MORE, to prove to THEM something I already know I am not (and that is Im not sectarian)? Sorry but Id rather be a master of one thing, than a jack of all trades.
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Focusing one's energy on the teachings and practices of one lineage(in this case the Gelug or Je Tsongkapa's Lineage), as a requirement or commitment in receiving initiations into the practice of Dorje Shugden, is perfectly and logically alright. It is not sectarian when one does not, at the same time, engage in negative sectarian activities like criticizing, putting down and attacking other lineages and traditions. Indeed, we see how many high Gelug Lamas or realized Masters, who are Dorje Shugden practitioners, go about their practice with great dignity and without retaliating back at those who condemn or criticize or attack them, not even the Dalai Lama who had imposed the ban on Dorje Shugden practice.
Being sectarian implies being narrow or selective in one's practice of the Dharma. The practitioners of the Gelug or Je Tsongkapa's pure Lineage cannot be accused of being sectarian. Why so? It's because if we examine Je Tsongkapa's teachings as contained in the Lamrim (the Graduated Stages of the Path to Enlightenment)we can see clearly that they contain all of the 84000 teachings of Lord Buddha. These teachings are passed down through an unbroken lineage from Buddha Shakyamuni; it is hence complete as well as authentic.
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before we go further in to the whole idea of sectarianism, we need to examine what happened that gave people the idea that being exclusive to a certain tradition as being sectarian. During the 19th century, there was a movement known as Rime. This movement was started by Jamgon Kongtrul and emphasizes on not taking sides when taking teachings, as the word Rime means:
Ris or Phyog-ris in Tibetan means "one-sided", "partisan" or "sectarian". Med means "No". Ris-med (Wylie), or Rimé, therefore means "no sides", "non-partisan" or "non-sectarian".
This "movement" caused the Nyingma and Kagyu traditions to fuse together into what we know them as today. It encouraged all the Tibetan Buddhist schools to study each other and to not just stick to one tradition.Which is fine, but many people these days get the wrong idea of Rime and use it as a basis and excuse that it is okay to practice other traditions.
The movement's name is derived from two Tibetan words: Ris (bias, side) and Med (lack), which combined expresses the idea of openness to other Tibetan Buddhist traditions, as opposed to sectarianism. The Rimé movement therefore is often misunderstood as trying to unite the various sects through their similarities, which was not the case. Rimé was intended to recognize the differences between traditions and appreciate them, while also establishing a dialogue which would create common ground. It is considered important that variety be preserved, and therefore Rimé teachers are generally quite careful to emphasize differences in thought, giving students many options as to how to proceed in their spiritual training.
With this quote, I find it very confusing as to why would people use this as an excuse to skirt around different traditions and claim that they base it on the rime movement, and that mixing traditions is okay for them. In other words, even if this tradition was not intended to have that effect, the end result was that a lot of people felt that anything that was not within this movement as sectarian. On wikipedia also, it is mentioned:
The movement began within a large context of increasing domination by the Gelug lineage. Beginning in the 17th century, the Gelug view and politics increasingly dominated in Tibet and the minority lineages were at risk for losing their traditions.[14] At its founding, the Rimé movement was primarily non-Gelugpa teachers and at times the movement has appeared critical of Gelug views. Professor Georges Dreyfus suggests this argumentation was less to create further division but was to bolster minority views that had been marginalized by Gelug supremacy. Nonetheless, philosophic commentaries by early Rimé writers tend to criticize Gelugpa tenets.
In other words, the rime movement somehow had the effect of making the Gelug seem sectarian when they were just minding their own business. The idea that being exclusive to one tradition is sectarian stemmed from this movement even though "it was not intended to be that way"...hmm. But that aside, the Gelugs do respect and hold in high esteem other traditions, just that they do not practice their teachings. So Gelug conforms to the Rime ideology from the start, but why did the early rime writers criticize Gelug from the start? hmm
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Early Rime Started as a political-spiritual stick with which to beat the Gelugpa's with and now it is being used in its full capacity to beat Gelugs who wish to follow their spiritual guides advise without bowing to the political influence of the Dalai lama, We all know the Dalai lama's reasoning's are ridiculous whats more is that in the early 60's when all the Lama's first congregated in India there where attempts back then by the Dalai lama and the Gaden Phodrang to use the Rime Philosophy to unite all the schools and teachers under the Dalai lama's central authority (something that they had been unable to do in Tibet because of regional loyalties and a disconnection between the Dalai lama and the people) where unsuccessful because of various reasons, Dorje Shugden was the ideal sacrifice to make this political ambition become a reality after all if you can't make schools unite naturally then unite them under the banner of hatred right ? Just as so many politicians have done in the past point the finger at a certain section of the population as the cause of all their problems.
Fortunately the more exposing we do the weaker their argument becomes and the more ridiculous they look
The Dalai lama will have no choice in the future but to remove this ban because of the increasing strength of Shugden practitioners and their supporters around the world. The Basis of this division is upon political grounds+dodgy spiritual reasoning's and it will be no doubt a cause for the decline and befall of serious misfortune upon all those who persecute Shugden practitioners now or who create incorrect statues or practices based upon this Ignorance, In the future it will be their practices that are banned because they have been the main cause of sectarianism and suffering of their spiritual brothers and sisters and for not following actual Buddhist tenets...Who would seriously need to create practices that guard against a particular so called spirit ? Either they have no actual refuge or they believe this spirit to be more powerful then the Buddha's. Both ridiculous and Non Buddhist points that shall be removed in the future.
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To be honest, I did find it weird that the rime movement excluded the Gelugs in the first place, and isnt it that the Gelug school is actually Rime from the start, since Tsongkhapa actually took teachings from all the traditions of his time? It didint really occurred to me that Rime was actually created in response to the popularity of the Gelug, where Tsongkhapa has always emphasized on following the system where the Buddha has taught - focus on ethics, Guru devotion and on preparing the ground well before entering the path of Tantra, something that was not emphasized during his time. So, in other words, Gelug is a more systematic way of rime. No doubt that the movement united other schools, but it also caused them to be jealous of Gelug and they also spread a very dangerous and poisonous mentality that being just with one tradition means that you are sectarian. In fact, the Rime movement sounds very good at first, until we discover how and what are they doing to the Gelugpas.
I do not think that it is "wrong" to seek teachings from other traditions if we are Gelugpa, but it is wrong if we do not have a stable foundation in our own tradition before we explore another, or do it without the permission of our own Gurus. I am sure it is not an issue at all if we have mastered the Gelug lineage and all the teachings in it and then we seek teachings from Sakya, Kagyu and Nyingma, but so far how many people is able to do that? As a Gelug, I do learn up on other lineages such as their histories and a summary of their practices, but I do not see the need to partake in their teachings simply because I already have a lot of teachings and practices I have yet to study and practice in my own tradition, so why do I need to seek other teachings when I cant finish my own?
The current idea of nonsectarianism actually originates with Rime, and perhaps people misinterpreted it, or perhaps it is an idea that stems from insecurity, as the quote below shows?
In the West, where so many different Buddhist traditions exist side by side, one needs to be constantly on one's guard against the danger of sectarianism. Such a divisive attitude is often the result of failing to understand or appreciate anything outside one's own tradition. Teachers from all schools would therefore benefit greatly from studying and gaining some practical experience of the teachings of other traditions.[16]
Does anyone here fail to appreciate Dzogchen or Mahamudra? Or the masters from other tradition? I dont think so. we just dont do any of their practices. thats all.