dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: iloveds on December 11, 2011, 07:45:50 AM
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I woke up today and thought to myself if a lay Dorje Shugden Oracle were to manifest in today's environment what difficulties would she / he face.
We have a ban, we pro / anti groups, we have HHDL, CTA, a variety of DS groups.
Would it be life threatening?
Would it be beneficial?
What would the reaction be like?
Are there any lay oracles alive today?
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In my opinion, it will be very tough for a lay Dorje Shugden oracle to manifest in today's environment. Tough because the oracle's mind must be very very stable especially since the ban is still on. Besides with all the worldly distractions, its gonna be hard for the oracle to resist.
I believe the people at large will be able to accept a lay oracle, in fact it will inspire more people to aspire to be one.
iloveds, are you thinking of becoming one?
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It would depend where the lay oracle resided. If it was anywhere outside countries which Tibetan exile communities, it certainly wouldn't be as "dangerous" - the people imposing this silly ban (the Tibetan government etc) cannot touch anyone anywhere else, as people are protected by the laws of their own country, including the laws of freedom of religion.
I imagine that in some ways, it might be easier - it is not always easy for practitioners and members of a center to commit to taking monk vows. But these organisations may still need the help of an oracle to consult their protector. So one of their members could perhaps be trained as an oracle to suit the needs of the people in that area and within their Dharma centers. The challenges however, might present when the chosen person has to go through very extensive retreats (which may not be as easy if one is in a lay environment, without traditional monastic support) and also adopt certain lifestyle practices to keep their body clean, which may be more difficult to uphold given the many distractions of our modern world... but then again, this obstacle of worldly distractions is faced by anyone who is sincerely on the path in Dharma, not just an oracle!
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Yes I think it will be life threatening for the lay oracle, yes it would be beneficial as one it gives evidence to lay people that one of their own can also be a vessel for the Buddha.
Yes it would be surprising for lay people I think, considering the amount of training , discipline that the lay oracle has to undergo.
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Yeah but what do they say about activities of great benefit? Their always met by obstacles of equal measure. Its our own shitty karma manifesting against us. So balanced against the great obstacles that this oracle would face because of modern day distractions, you also have the immense benefits they could bring.
I think the reaction would be..interesting. The CTA would of course attempt to discredit the oracle (him? her?), and the oracle couldnt seek help or protection from the Chinese government because that would be seen as a political move. So I think the oracle and everyone connected to him/her would have to lay low. A pity because the oracle could do so much for so many people, but circumstances wouldnt allow them to accomplish their purpose.
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I think the threats would be similar to what high lamas who spreads/gives empowerment of Dorje Shugden practice experiences.
There are many high lamas today who practices Dorje Shugden and they are out an about their work all over the world.
Dorje Shugden monasteries are being built and growing.
Well, for me, it only goes to show that the ban is there, but it hasn't and will not stop the activities of Dorje Shugden.
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I think the threats would be similar to what high lamas who spreads/gives empowerment of Dorje Shugden practice experiences.
There are many high lamas today who practices Dorje Shugden and they are out an about their work all over the world.
Dorje Shugden monasteries are being built and growing.
Well, for me, it only goes to show that the ban is there, but it hasn't and will not stop the activities of Dorje Shugden.
My thoughts exactly... I find there would be more pros then cons. If there is an Oracle, it would definitely benefit, help and inspire more people... Would be good for people's practise and faith to grow even stronger (although all we really need is to listen to our guru).
Definitely it will give a great boost to the growth of the monastery/temple to spread Lama Tsongkhapa's doctrine.
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Whoever the lay person is chosen, he/she must have pure and strong guru devotion, or else it is very hard for him to te trained as an oracle.
Besides the intensive retreats, the strict diet and personal discipline that the lay person has to abide to, I heard that sometimes it may take 3 to5 years or even more for a lay person to be a suitable vehicle for Dorje Shugden or his entourage to enter. And during the training, when the lama prepare the lay person, there may be loud screams from the lay person as the channels of the person are being cleared. And this will go on and on until the lay person is "cleaned" enough to receive Dorje Shugden and/or his entourage.
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I think it also depends on the cultural background the lay oracle manifests in. If the lay oracle is in the west, it would be 'safer' as there are laws over here which protect the person, regardless of religion etc.
If the lay oracle was to manifest in the east, such as in India, it could be quite dangerous to the oracle on a physical level with anti-Shugden people who are misguided enough to think that the lay oracle is channeling an evil spirit and they might think that they will save the world by getting rid of the evil spirit via harm to the oracle.
If the lay oracle manifests in the west, he or she would also have more freedom to travel around as opposed to being in one of the Tibetan refugee camps where they are unlikely to get a passport because of their being Shugden practitioners.
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Would it be life threatening?
As of now, there are a lot of threats on high lamas who practice Dorje Shugden, for example Trijang Rinpoche, Gancheng Rinpoche etc. As such I would think that lay Oracle will have the similar threats.
Would it be beneficial?
Yes, any oracle will be beneficial!
What would the reaction be like?
Whose reaction?
Are there any lay oracles alive today?
I would certainly hope so :)
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I think it will be life threatening as the threats would be the same to what high lamas spreading Dorje Shugden practice are facing.
It would be beneficial as it would help and inspire more people into the practice. It also gives hope that even lay people can be an oracle if trained up correctly.
And as usual, the reaction of the CTA is to discredit and condemn DS lay oracle.
I certainly hope so that lay oracles are alive today and that they are keeping a low profile until the ban is lifted.
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There used to be a lay oracle of Dorje Shugden which I have heard of, but he was "fired" for making use of the trance to make money. I heard the guru ordered the protector to stop entering him, and since then, he is just a normal lay person.
I don't think "life-threatening" is a relevant point of discussion, if a Dorje Shugden oracle were to take trance in Dharamsala, of course it is life-threatening, if he were to take trance in China or USA, I don't see any danger, the CTA is definitely not rich and not smart enough to send assassin all the way there to kill the oracle.
Definitely an oracle of Dorje Shugden is beneficial, nothing better than to meet the King himself in person, not an ounce of negativity about this. If there is any problem, it is the oracle's problem (like the example above), nothing to do with Dorje Shugden.
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There used to be a lay oracle of Dorje Shugden which I have heard of, but he was "fired" for making use of the trance to make money. I heard the guru ordered the protector to stop entering him, and since then, he is just a normal lay person.
I don't think "life-threatening" is a relevant point of discussion, if a Dorje Shugden oracle were to take trance in Dharamsala, of course it is life-threatening, if he were to take trance in China or USA, I don't see any danger, the CTA is definitely not rich and not smart enough to send assassin all the way there to kill the oracle.
Definitely an oracle of Dorje Shugden is beneficial, nothing better than to meet the King himself in person, not an ounce of negativity about this. If there is any problem, it is the oracle's problem (like the example above), nothing to do with Dorje Shugden.
Interesting story about the lay person who made use of the trance to make money. I think that is the biggest risk with lay oracles: they are not free from the 8 worldly concerns and may use Dharma for money. That is perhaps the biggest difficulty that they may have. Aside form being doubted by many people and having a shorter life. Although many cultures do have oracles, there is also many a chance that the lay person may not be able to hold the vows properly or having other lay people manipulate and misuse them.
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I share with WB that if the lay oracle resides in the West, he/she will have more protection.
Whether a lay oracle is beneficial to others will depend on his motivation. As a lay person, his moral discipline will have to be exemplary as he does not have the robe as a proof of his vows.
Have heard of a lay oracle who fathered a son to carry on his sacred duty. His son later took ordination as a monk. Not sure if there is any lay oracle alive now.
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Well, I think as a lay oracle residing outside of the Tibetan Cultural Sphere (Tibet, Parts of China, Northern India, Mongolia & Bhutan), would have a different set of challenges depending whether the oracle resides in the East or West.
In the East, people will hold more respect but they would not understand the difference between a Dorje Shugden oracle and the typical shamans and mediums of wayside shrines. So, education in that respect would be very important. I think the West would pose a little more of a challenge as they would see the oracle as nothing more than remnants of pre-Buddhist indigenous influence.
Skepticism would be a bigger hurdle in the West than in the East. However, both in both cultures, there is the further challenge of the initial retreats that the potential oracle would have to undergo. First, the oracle needs a qualified Lama to guide him and then the oracle needs to be in a secluded location. Others, the constant screaming induced by the trances by the entourage would cause a lot of trouble with the authorities.
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In the East, people will hold more respect but they would not understand the difference between a Dorje Shugden oracle and the typical shamans and mediums of wayside shrines. So, education in that respect would be very important.
I think the West would pose a little more of a challenge as they would see the oracle as nothing more than remnants of pre-Buddhist indigenous influence.
Skepticism would be a bigger hurdle in the West than in the East.
Indeed BU, the oracles would be seen as nothing less than "hocus-pocus" by most Western people.
But that is ok, because for those skeptical (or even cynical) minds over oracles and tulkus, that however still feel the urge to practice Buddhism, there is also NKT that do not entertain anything to do with tulkus and oracles.
And I always thought that the main reason for NKT not to do so was to accomodate the minds of Westerners that have not been exposed to oracles for centuries.
There were however oracles in Europe in the past. The most famous oracles were the oracles of Delphi.
extract from http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=8: (http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=8:)
Originally, the perfect candidate was considered to be a young virgin girl.
But after one of the virgins escaped with a young Thessalian it was decreed no prophetess (also called the Pythoness or the Pythia) would be appointed under 50 years of age.
A booming industry grew up around the Oracle.
Temples were built and rebuilt, priests were trained, rituals evolved and sacrifices were performed.
Priests interpreted the incoherent utterances of the Pythia.
Presents were brought to both placate the deity and in the hope of influencing a positive prophesy.
The Delphic temple itself became one of the largest "banks" in the world.
Delphi became a center for banking and commerce.
The divine nature and associated deity changed a few times over the course of several centuries.
When the profits of the Oracle began to decline it was declared that Poseidon was speaking through her.
Later this changed to the goddess Themis and, finally, Apollo was determined to be presiding over Delphi.
For over a millennia people traveled to the hill to consult the Oracle.
Farmers consulted the Oracle on matters as simple as planting and harvest.
Famous world leaders consulted on matters of conquest.
Sophocles, Alexander the Great, and Croesus of Lydia all consulted the Oracle at one time or another.
The priests' interpretations may have been more coherent than the Pythoness but they generally remained cryptic and ambiguous.
Croesus for example donated a fortune to the oracle to find out if he should invade a neighboring country.
He was told "If you go to war you will cause the destruction of a great empire".
He went to war and not only was defeated but was captured.
He sent word to the Oracle asking why he was misled.
The word came back that he wasn't misled, he had been told that there would be the destruction of a great empire and there was -- his.
The world famous Oracle of Delphi played an influential role in ancient history.
For fourteen centuries it helped determine the course of empires.
The prophesying was abolished in the 4th century as it conflicted with Christian beliefs that were at that time being embraced by Rome.
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The biggest obstacle for an oracle to manifest in today's environment would be doubt. There would be a lot of people who would doubt the authenticity of the oracle, and there will even be more people, especially Buddhists who would reject the existence of a Buddhist oracle, or the tradition of oracles in the Buddhist tradition because they are too afraid of being labelled as superstitious for believing in something that is hard to explain. And as a result of that, today's society will not accept Buddhist oracles so easily as many people who proclaim themselves to be Buddhists tend to be quite cynical. Being close minded is today's illiteracy.