dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on December 22, 2011, 09:53:46 AM
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Was just reading this article http://www.visionarylead.org/articles/dalai_lama.htm (http://www.visionarylead.org/articles/dalai_lama.htm) ... I quote:
As the reincarnated leader of Tibetan Buddhism, The Dalai Lama is revered around the world for his compassion and forgiveness, and is the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. He is remarkably forgiving of the Chinese, who have killed thousands of his people and destroyed the Tibetan culture. “Despite all that has happened to myself and my people,” he says, “I believe that human beings are basically good. It is only when we become confused or fearful or angry, that we do terrible things,” he said. “So we must watch ourselves very carefully, and not allow negative states to influence us.”
If His Holiness can forgive the Chinese who invaded his country, why cant the Dalai Lamas followers practice a little compassion for Dorje Shugden practitioners who are supposedly going to hell?
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Very well said DharmaDefender!
And it is great you brought this article up becasue everywhere HHDL is recognised as a peace keeper, an icon for great compassion and wisdom, if he could forgive the Chinese who invaded his country, killed thousands of his own people including monks and nuns, destroyed monasteries, burnt down scriptures and holy statues, I am sure he could easily forgive a handful of DS practitioners (compared to the Chinese population)
But instead he chose to allow the then TGIE(Tibetan Government In Exile, now called CTA- Central Tibetan Administration) to totally discriminate the DS followers from the non DS followers, and create so much pain and sufferings for the DS practitioners, it just seems to be very illogical.
I said this becasue HHDL has made many contradictions in his actions in relation to the DS ban, to name a few, HHDL allowed Trijang Rinpoche to continue his DS practice, so if DS is an evil spirit that can even harm the life of HHDL, then DS would certainly harm Trijang Rinpoche?? Why did HHDL allows this?
Also the throne of the 101th Gaden Tripa still remains in Gaden Monastery till today even after he openedly joined Shar Ganden after his tenure has finished.
The fact that the holy DS statue that used to be in Gaden Lachi main prayer hall was ordered to be moved into a separate chapel of his own but remain still in Ganden Monastery for worshippers to pay respect says a lot.
So what are all these contradictions telling us?? I believe HHDL is using his skillful means to bring DS out to the whole world, like it or not, it is because of this ban, that many DS websites have sprung up by devoted practitioners to clear the air, that I am even on this forum to voice my views and give testimonials of how DS has hleped my life, that DS practitioners have a platform to unite our voice together to make it louder.
So for me, I would definitely forgive HHDL, in fact, I had never held any anger or grudges against him, as all along I believe there is a much BIGGER picture from all of this fuss.
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i must agree with you there DharmaDefender. Just today i read that the Dalai Lama wept for the Japan earthquake victims (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-22/dalai-lama-weeps-for-japan-s-quake-victims-as-golfers-play-on-pico-iyer.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-22/dalai-lama-weeps-for-japan-s-quake-victims-as-golfers-play-on-pico-iyer.html)). Aside from the Dorje Shugden issue, the Dalai Lama is always compassionate, always kind. i am sure it pains him, behind the scenes, to see the schism in the Sangha and amongst the Tibetan diaspora because of the ban. It is so contradictory to his Chenrezig nature.
Of course before I came onto this website, i did think that the Dalai Lama was one fry short of a happy meal to institute the ban against Dorje Shugden practitioners. Now that I've read through quite a lot (and still reading and re-reading) i must say that the bigger picture hypothesis as mentioned by Triesa is the only logical way to look at the situations. Have faith in the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden!
If only the oft overzealous pro-Dalai Lama anti-Shugden clique can see this too.
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Personally i think the ban so far has exposed a number of issues with Tibetan Buddhist practitioners that otherwise would not be exposed. The main one would be how the other 3 traditions express their unhappiness against the gelugs by using the protector as an excuse.The other is how some students are gullible and do not do their own research before taking sides. It also exposes their fanatism to their "beliefs" which are not too different from blind faith just because they want to be on the side of the "good" Lama. Both issues are the real threat against Tibetan Buddhism as these actions directly halt or even destroy what took countless sages, scholars and luminaries to build.
I dont know but it looks more like a social experiment by HHDL to expose all of these issues before it rots Tibetan Buddhism and completely stops the creation of successful practitioners.
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An enlightened being like the Buddha, he has no enemies. How can be the path to enlightenment consist of making more enemies of certain groups of practitioners? If one cannot overcome the 'enemy' by logic perhaps there is a flaw in one's logic.
Anyways in our meditations we are supposed to put 'enemies' or people we do not like in front so how can the 'enemies' increase for us day by day. There should be decreasing right? Does the Buddha even have any trace of disliking certain beings, how could he have gained enlightenment? Hence actions that take us further from enlightenment like creating more 'enemies' I have much doubt about them.
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An enlightened being like the Buddha, he has no enemies. How can be the path to enlightenment consist of making more enemies of certain groups of practitioners? If one cannot overcome the 'enemy' by logic perhaps there is a flaw in one's logic.
Anyways in our meditations we are supposed to put 'enemies' or people we do not like in front so how can the 'enemies' increase for us day by day. There should be decreasing right? Does the Buddha even have any trace of disliking certain beings, how could he have gained enlightenment? Hence actions that take us further from enlightenment like creating more 'enemies' I have much doubt about them.
I would see it as something that needs to be done even though it seems contradictory to the teachings in order to purge the spiritual hypocrisy that is deeply embedded in today's practitioners. I dont believe HHDL truly sees Dorje Shugden as an enemy. If he did, he would be having monthly pujas and rituals with the other high lamas to destroy Dorje Shugden, just as the 5th Dalai Lama did (before he realized what he was doing). Or maybe, he is doing this to Shugden to show Shugden's real power and qualities.Because what HHDL is doing is very half hearted in his "ban". He could have done so much more and with a lot more intensity.
Create a few enemies and reveal the actual hidden issues, or dont create enemies and let these issues eat and rot Buddhism to the core, which would you choose? As we all know, Vajrayana is the last lineage that is untainted from the machinations of the laity. What is going to happen if we lose that?
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I always view H.H.D.L. as Avalokestivara for his great compassion. He is also Vajrapani who uses skillful methods to benefit people in a bigger picture. Hence, an enlightened being like H.H.D.L. has wisdom our minds cannot comprehend for his actions. Only the end result tells. Hope we live to see it.
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If HHDL can forgive the Chinese who invaded his country, why is it that HHDL is making a big issue about Dorje Shugden and not forgiving DS practitioners? Why is HHDL who is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara behave this way and create so much pain and suffering for DS practitioners? He has given permission for Trijang Rinpoche to continue DS practice and he even allow DS statue to be moved from Gaden Lachi prayer hall to a separate chapel for people to worship; he did not order the statue to be destroyed. From my point of view, it shows that HHDL has his reasons for creating all these confusions, pain and sufferings. He is using skilful methods to create more awareness for Dorje Shugden to spread. More websites and big monasteries are mushrooming every where and as what icy said...only the end results tells. Yes, I do hope that I will live to see it.
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HHDL has been contradictory in his actions and yet he is the emanation of Avalokiteshvara. Many times HHDL is being criticized for his unacceptable actions perceived by many. Why the precognitions? Why not see it in a bigger picture? We may not see it with our deluded mind but I am pretty sure HHDL has his reasons for creating all these fuss....hope to live long enough to see the result.
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As the reincarnated leader of Tibetan Buddhism, The Dalai Lama is revered around the world for his compassion and forgiveness, and is the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. He is remarkably forgiving of the Chinese, who have killed thousands of his people and destroyed the Tibetan culture. “Despite all that has happened to myself and my people,” he says, “I believe that human beings are basically good. It is only when we become confused or fearful or angry, that we do terrible things,” he said. “So we must watch ourselves very carefully, and not allow negative states to influence us.”
--When I read this short write up I can feel how compassion and tolerance Dalai Lama to all those who had hurt them. A high lama practice his eight verses compassion into big picture. Those that can benefit more and more sentient beings. A full compassion high lama, even can give up his reputation, but to benefit others they don't mind.---This is good evidence!
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We are living in degenerate times where more and more obstacles arise, disturbing the practice of pure Dharma. Our minds are easily distracted and, sad to say, it is dramatic and “negative” stories that have the power to attract and retain the attention of today’s society.
Therefore, in addition to all the postings already shared, the drama orchestrated between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama is also directly linked to our karma. Our collective karma has it that suffering must be created. It can also be viewed that this suffering is a form of purification and the sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners have the good karma to actually go through this purification and exhaust the negative karma they could have accumulated.
So, I pray that Dharma practitioners develop the wisdom to enable this purification to be swiftly completed by reviewing our own mind and create the progress towards mind transformation so that the practice of Dorje Shugden can further flourish and practitioners can practice without anymore suffering.
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Therefore, in addition to all the postings already shared, the drama orchestrated between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama is also directly linked to our karma. Our collective karma has it that suffering must be created. It can also be viewed that this suffering is a form of purification and the sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners have the good karma to actually go through this purification and exhaust the negative karma they could have accumulated.
Well said, shugdenprotect. Thank you for sharing with us this new perspective. It leads me to think deeper about the ban. There are too many conflicting points about this ban. So many things that even on a surface level seems to be very illogical. How can this come from a high lama like HHDL?
I do not doubt that HHDL is a highly attained being, if not he would not be so respected and admired by people all over the world. He must have a bigger plan. So what you said is logic "Our collective karma has it that suffering must be created".
Not easy for Buddhism to flourish in this degenerative era. Personally I always like to think that HHDL did all these out of great compassion. I don't want to lose hope in Buddhism.
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I wonder if his own government and people know that the Dalai Lama has forgiven the Chinese...
it's all very ironic and contradictory that while on the one hand the Dalai Lama is forgiving the Chinese, on the other, his own people are accusing Dorje Shugden practitioners everywhere of being Chinese spies!!
If being a Chinese spy is so bad, then shouldn't we have even more compassion towards them? To help them? If they are being so evil and bad, then as good Buddhists shouldn't we try to win them over with kindness and help to "change" their minds for the "better?"
pah! Chinese spies....!
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I wonder if his own government and people know that the Dalai Lama has forgiven the Chinese...
it's all very ironic and contradictory that while on the one hand the Dalai Lama is forgiving the Chinese, on the other, his own people are accusing Dorje Shugden practitioners everywhere of being Chinese spies!!
If being a Chinese spy is so bad, then shouldn't we have even more compassion towards them? To help them? If they are being so evil and bad, then as good Buddhists shouldn't we try to win them over with kindness and help to "change" their minds for the "better?"
pah! Chinese spies....!
not to mention very offensive and derogatory to chinese tibetan buddhists, who also happens to be one of the biggest sponsors of Tibetan Buddhism around the world (eg: Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore). So being chinese is a sin now? And chinese culture is also deeply ingrained in tibetan culture so they're essentially insulting their own roots and also their sponsors. I am quite perplexed at the stupidity and arrogance of these people.
So if i am chinese i cant visit Dharamsala because i will be discriminated against and attacked? and accused as chinese spy?!?!?!?!? :(
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Are the Tibetan officials sure and totally aware of His Holiness' policies and feelings towards the Chinese?
His Holiness has been talking about meaningful autonomy for Tibet through bilateral resolution process, and the purpose is to preserve its culture and religion. His Holiness himself has said that it was made clear to China that foreign affairs and defense are up to the Chinese central government if greater autonomy is granted. So why are they afraid of Chinese spies? What is there to lose?
A few months back, Dalai Lama himself also said that there was a shift within the intellectual class of China over the issue of Tibet, and that more and more Chinese people are now supporting the cause of Tibet and showing their solidarity with Tibetans. Isn't it time to educate the world, especially the Chinese, and stop labelling everyone a Chinese spy, when in reality, perhaps many who were labelled as such were actually doing a better job fostering relations than the officials?
I sometimes think, could it be that His Holiness' wish to "educate" the public about Dorje Shugden was misinterpreted by people who implemented/created the ban, hence causing misunderstandings and complications.
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Are the Tibetan officials sure and totally aware of His Holiness' policies and feelings towards the Chinese?
His Holiness has been talking about meaningful autonomy for Tibet through bilateral resolution process, and the purpose is to preserve its culture and religion. His Holiness himself has said that it was made clear to China that foreign affairs and defense are up to the Chinese central government if greater autonomy is granted. So why are they afraid of Chinese spies? What is there to lose?
A few months back, Dalai Lama himself also said that there was a shift within the intellectual class of China over the issue of Tibet, and that more and more Chinese people are now supporting the cause of Tibet and showing their solidarity with Tibetans. Isn't it time to educate the world, especially the Chinese, and stop labelling everyone a Chinese spy, when in reality, perhaps many who were labelled as such were actually doing a better job fostering relations than the officials?
I sometimes think, could it be that His Holiness' wish to "educate" the public about Dorje Shugden was misinterpreted by people who implemented/created the ban, hence causing misunderstandings and complications.
A friend has told me in the past that before the ban was in place, other schools have stated their discomfort with Shugden and have threatened HHDL to do something about it, or else he can forget about unity amongst the schools. So the ban was enforced to unite everyone. I have no idea how true this is, but the same friend had told me that antagonism against Shugden started with Sangye Gyatso and he has been reincarnating as govt officials to try to implement the ban. Again, this is what I heard and i have no idea how true this is, but it is an interesting theory nevertheless.
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A friend has told me in the past that before the ban was in place, other schools have stated their discomfort with Shugden and have threatened HHDL to do something about it, or else he can forget about unity amongst the schools.
What business is it of other schools to comment on ours? When Gelugs comment on their practices, they kick up a fuss and the CTA clamp down on us. But when theyre not happy, they get pissy and talk about their discomforts and the CTA support them.
And Gelugs are so strict on themselves, always saying that we cannot comment on other schools because we do not know enough about their practices and lineage. Maybe they should take a leaf out of our books...!
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What business is it of other schools to comment on ours? When Gelugs comment on their practices, they kick up a fuss and the CTA clamp down on us. But when theyre not happy, they get pissy and talk about their discomforts and the CTA support them.
And Gelugs are so strict on themselves, always saying that we cannot comment on other schools because we do not know enough about their practices and lineage. Maybe they should take a leaf out of our books...!
The CTA is not aware that they are being manipulated by others and they are stupid enough to do anything and everything without investigation. A normal government would do actual research and debates before something is done, but look what CTA does. And they call themselves a government? please! Gain independence and give suffering to MORE people? I dont think HHDL will allow that, even.
Tibetans are known to be very sneaky and manipulative. The way the other schools expressed discomfort with Dorje Shugden and Gelugpa was done in a very sneaky and subtle way where they do not dare criticize openly but did many implications out of jealousy because their own protectors did not work as fast as Dorje Shugden. I've seen them do this before and I feel disgusted. Of course, not every lama of other traditions do this but a majority do because before i joined my lama I did some research and i do notice this. So my friend may be right after all.
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I always view H.H.D.L. as Avalokestivara for his great compassion. He is also Vajrapani who uses skillful methods to benefit people in a bigger picture. Hence, an enlightened being like H.H.D.L. has wisdom our minds cannot comprehend for his actions. Only the end result tells. Hope we live to see it.
HHDL is well know Avalokestivara. Of course he'll have a lot deeper though.
We in this new age, we have a lot different thinking people , we all in the sea of Samsara. A lot of attachment ! May be after 10years. we will know why, HHDL make this BAN of Dorje Shugden !
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His Holiness is known worldwide as a peacekeeper but why can't he make peace with Dorje Shugden's practitioners? It actually makes him look stupid. He can forgive a country that has slaughtered his people and took his country away. He is Chenrezig. He can show such great compassion to the Chinese but why does he not show that type of compassion towards us? It really makes no sense.
All these contradictions are a sign. The sign is that His Holiness has a bigger picture in mind. We should not be so short-sighted. We must look ahead and think on how all the suffering that the CTA and the Dalai Lama is giving to the Shugden practitioners are actually opening gateways to those who do not practice Dorje Shugden yet! That is my belief on this subject matter.
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His Holiness is known worldwide as a peacekeeper but why can't he make peace with Dorje Shugden's practitioners? It actually makes him look stupid. He can forgive a country that has slaughtered his people and took his country away. He is Chenrezig. He can show such great compassion to the Chinese but why does he not show that type of compassion towards us? It really makes no sense.
All these contradictions are a sign. The sign is that His Holiness has a bigger picture in mind. We should not be so short-sighted. We must look ahead and think on how all the suffering that the CTA and the Dalai Lama is giving to the Shugden practitioners are actually opening gateways to those who do not practice Dorje Shugden yet! That is my belief on this subject matter.
If Trijang Rinpoche has predicted that HHDL and Shugden may appear to be against each other, but in reality its more of a play, then I am pretty sure its all part and parcel of something bigger that only people whose attainments have reach that level would know.
Shugden used to be a secret protector and he is practiced in a chapel or in an enclosed altar in the past. Now, it is openly practiced. This is also the effect of the ban in a way: it opened up the practice.
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For a long time, I was confused about the ban as it doesn't make sense to me why are things so contradictory. Thanks to this website, it made me think more, compare, and continue to have faith in both Dorje Shugden and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
For instant, something like this will definitely confuse everyone. In one instant, His Holiness said that the practise is wrong, and his Gurus are wrong: Dalai Lama Says Directly – His Guru is Wrong? - http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1478 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1478)
and then you see this,
Video: Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden -
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/trijangrinpoche.htm (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/trijangrinpoche.htm)
So is his Guru wrong, or right? ??? I don't think Dalai Lama who's a great scholar, and who had debated with great tsenshab (debate partner) can be so confused as to give opposing stand?
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For a long time, I was confused about the ban as it doesn't make sense to me why are things so contradictory. Thanks to this website, it made me think more, compare, and continue to have faith in both Dorje Shugden and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
For instant, something like this will definitely confuse everyone. In one instant, His Holiness said that the practise is wrong, and his Gurus are wrong: Dalai Lama Says Directly – His Guru is Wrong? - [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1478[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1478[/url])
and then you see this,
Video: Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden -
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/trijangrinpoche.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/trijangrinpoche.htm[/url])
So is his Guru wrong, or right? ??? I don't think Dalai Lama who's a great scholar, and who had debated with great tsenshab (debate partner) can be so confused as to give opposing stand?
That is why I keep saying that HHDL seems very half hearted with regards to the ban. He could have done so much more to eliminate the practice but he is not doing it, including recognizing emanations of Shugden. If he allows them to continue definitely there is something going on there.