Setrap Chen is deeply connected with Dorje Shugden as he was one of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen's main Protectors; this is why we see him and Amithaba in the thankas of Dharmapalas mansion. I love Alexis's story about Lord Dulzin being asked whether Setrap should be painted below or above - no competition in the enlightened mind, only care and clarity! The same with Lord Setrap - he often recommends propitiation of Dorje Shugden, Kalarupa, etc. I have heard that Setrap unleashed a storm on Sera monastery when the public anti-Dorje Shugden campaign started, and told the Sangha next morning through an oracle that he wasn't amused at all! We can also see many shrines with Lords Setrap and Shugden next to each other in Tibetan monasteries.
Ensapa,
I don't think DS, an enlightened being, need to be saved by Setrap, another enlightened being. Strange isn't it?
Actually, when it comes to Dharma protectors... sry it's a little off topic but I need to clear some questions.
For example, Buddhas, we have Manjushri, the Buddha that is excellent for wisdom... and then we have Medicine Buddha, that is excellent for wellbeing and health.
Dharma protectors on the other hand (referring to enlightened Dharma protectors) only have one function.
I can understand that Buddha emanates in a variety of qualities so there are many... but if Dharma protectors only have a single function, then why are there so many Dharma protectors? shouldn't having only 1 is sufficient?
Ensapa,
I don't think DS, an enlightened being, need to be saved by Setrap, another enlightened being. Strange isn't it?
Actually, when it comes to Dharma protectors... sry it's a little off topic but I need to clear some questions.
For example, Buddhas, we have Manjushri, the Buddha that is excellent for wisdom... and then we have Medicine Buddha, that is excellent for wellbeing and health.
Dharma protectors on the other hand (referring to enlightened Dharma protectors) only have one function.
I can understand that Buddha emanates in a variety of qualities so there are many... but if Dharma protectors only have a single function, then why are there so many Dharma protectors? shouldn't having only 1 is sufficient?
It is said that some protectors are more "powerful" than others.
For instance, Dorje Shugden is a "protector of our time".
This does not mean that the protectors or the Buddhas are different from their own side, they are different from our side. How we project them. So when they appear to "specialize", it is because we need this "simplification" from our side.
Also, we have a karmic connection with Dorje Shugden that is stronger than to another protector, and this is why Dorje Shugden is more "powerful". Again, it comes from us, not from the side of the Buddhas.
All Buddhas have achieved excellence in ALL aspects of buddhahood.
All enlightened Dharma protectors are Buddhas, and are not different from their own side, whether we call them Manjushri, Maitreya, Chenrezig or Dorje Shugden.
We make the differences, in how we project them and with our karmic affinities.
Thank you for the explanation.
I understand now. So it is due to our flaws that the Buddhas appear differently and some more powerful to us. When in actuality they all are equal in their ability to bless and protect us.
When you mention karmic affinity, does it refer to our imprints? Also, if a Buddha for example Dorje Shugden and Setrap resting in the same mandala, shouldn't we have equal affinity towards both of these protectors for that very reason?
Ensapa,
I don't think DS, an enlightened being, need to be saved by Setrap, another enlightened being. Strange isn't it?
Why do high lamas do protector practice then? Many high lamas like the Karmapa and Dalai Lama have their own personal protectors, why do they still need to be protected?
the reason why is not because they need the help, but rather they manifest in a human form and although they are enlightened but their conditions and environment, and the people they want to reach out to and help are not. also they will need help to overcome obstacles that arise due to the very reason that they are human. It might also be that they are doing this to show us an example of the benefits of holding your Dharmapala close to you.
Nothing will change the fact that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen practiced Setrap till the very end.
After he had died because of these sudden circumstances, his holy relics were cremated in the courtyard of Drepung's Tantric College. When the incense smoke from the cremation rose, as if intentionally, straight upward in
three streams of smoke, his attendant, saying, 'Such pretending, even now, after such evil deeds of others' jealousy and bad intentions have befallen you!' whipped his zen robe at the fire, at which time the smoke divided such that two streams still went into the sky but one stream wound down to earth in the direction of the village of Dän Bag and went to Sang Pung while, in actuality, his transcendent wisdom requested Setrab's support at Sang Pung, and arose in a wrathful form.
The Fifth Dalai Lama performed the ritual activity but as he was doing it Sangpu Setrab emanated a monastery on top of Bumpa Ri, Vase Mountain, where none had been before and rocked the Potala Palace back and forth, which caused the Great Fifth's concentration to waver just slightly; and also by the power of Dragpa Gyaltsen, himself, having singlepointedly practised glorious Guyasamaja while he was alive and attained high experiential realizations of its two stages, the fire puja was not successful.
When Mingling Terchen performed wrathful fire puja and Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle, when he was about to put him in the fire, Setrab emanated a celestial mansion in the sky until Terchen's mind was distracted and he lost him from the ladle. The ritual monks saw a pigeon fly away.
Ensapa,
I don't think DS, an enlightened being, need to be saved by Setrap, another enlightened being. Strange isn't it?
Why do high lamas do protector practice then? Many high lamas like the Karmapa and Dalai Lama have their own personal protectors, why do they still need to be protected?
the reason why is not because they need the help, but rather they manifest in a human form and although they are enlightened but their conditions and environment, and the people they want to reach out to and help are not. also they will need help to overcome obstacles that arise due to the very reason that they are human. It might also be that they are doing this to show us an example of the benefits of holding your Dharmapala close to you.
Nothing will change the fact that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen practiced Setrap till the very end.
Dear Michaela,
perhaps not as strange as some may think. The concept is similar to what Ensapa is saying, that enlightened beings manifest in various forms, some human, some worldly deities, some as enlightened beings in order to achieve a certain purpose.
This can be seen in the Dalai Lama's example as well, where His Holiness consults Nechung for divination and oracular pronouncements. Why would chenrezig need a worldly deity to foretell the future when he himself has clairvoyance? Surely not. Therefore, another conclusion has to be drawn. As explained by my great and wise lama, Dalai Lama is merely setting an example for others to follow - to have faith in the protectors, to have faith in their advice and pronouncements, and perhaps to have faith in the power of lamas to harness worldly deities to do their bidding. It is also an example of humility - in the Dalai Lama's own words "I am just a simple monk". That is of course not the truth but like any true Gelug, humility is key thus the Dalai Lama pretends to rely on the advice of oracles and such. Who knows, the Dalai Lama surely has greater clairvoyance than Nechung and perhaps is even telling Nechung what to say. Not inconceivable.
The only reason why HHDL would consult nechung is to more or less convince the more stubborn ministers about his direction and his policies. It would also be to unite the Tibetans who are very scattered, and especially to appease the Nyingmas who were very insecure about the Gelugs being in power.
As to the relationship between Shugden and Setrab, they are as brothers in the same mandala, and I too have heard it said that when one calls upon Shugden, Setrab comes along. And vice versa. So much so that in Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang's great work Music Delighting, the relationship between Setrab and Shugden is mentioned many times. I quote some below:
They actually reside in the same mandala. In many Dorje Shugden Sadhanas, this is very clearly mentioned.
First was during the funeral of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, whose primary protectors were Setrab and Four Face Mahakala.QuoteAfter he had died because of these sudden circumstances, his holy relics were cremated in the courtyard of Drepung's Tantric College. When the incense smoke from the cremation rose, as if intentionally, straight upward in
three streams of smoke, his attendant, saying, 'Such pretending, even now, after such evil deeds of others' jealousy and bad intentions have befallen you!' whipped his zen robe at the fire, at which time the smoke divided such that two streams still went into the sky but one stream wound down to earth in the direction of the village of Dän Bag and went to Sang Pung while, in actuality, his transcendent wisdom requested Setrab's support at Sang Pung, and arose in a wrathful form.
The second when the 5th Dalai Lama and several great tulkus were doing fire puja to subdue Dorje Shugden, who was supposedly causing great disturbances in Lhasa. In the words of Trijang Dorjechang himself, Setrab helped to distract the 5th Dalai Lama but Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was equally attained and the fire puja had no effect.QuoteThe Fifth Dalai Lama performed the ritual activity but as he was doing it Sangpu Setrab emanated a monastery on top of Bumpa Ri, Vase Mountain, where none had been before and rocked the Potala Palace back and forth, which caused the Great Fifth's concentration to waver just slightly; and also by the power of Dragpa Gyaltsen, himself, having singlepointedly practised glorious Guyasamaja while he was alive and attained high experiential realizations of its two stages, the fire puja was not successful.
And the third and final mention of Setrab is when another fire puja to subdue Dorje Shugden was being done by Mingling Terchen and once again, Setrab manifested to assist.QuoteWhen Mingling Terchen performed wrathful fire puja and Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle, when he was about to put him in the fire, Setrab emanated a celestial mansion in the sky until Terchen's mind was distracted and he lost him from the ladle. The ritual monks saw a pigeon fly away.
So why would an enlightened protector come to assist a supposedly worldly protector against the wishes of an enlightened master the 5th Dalai Lama? Why would Setrab go against Chenrezig? It doesnt make sense and a logical explanation must exist.
Unless it is all nothing but a play of sorts by these enlightened beings to help tame and distract the people of Tibet from doing something disastrous.
I conclude that Setrab is showing his support of Dorje Shugden, not because Shugden needs his help, but because we need to see logical examples and proof that Shugden is not worldly but enlightened and this is just one of the bases of examining the situation.
If you are a practitioner of Setrap you are also calling Dorje Shugden Indirectly 8)
What a cheeky maneuver to avoid the ban... :P
If you are a practitioner of Setrap you are also calling Dorje Shugden Indirectly 8)
What a cheeky maneuver to avoid the ban... :P
Hi Zach,
I would like to know more on how you came up with this conclusion. Is there any historical proof or a certain passage in Setrap's sadhana that proves this? I'm not asking to challenge, but it is interesting information if it is true, because it adds a brand new dimension to the whole Dorje Shugden issue and practice because Setrap is a Dharma protector that is widely accepted by the Nyingma, Sakya and Gelug traditions and it would be very exciting if this was true because it would have a lot of implications that come along with it, but if it happens to be not true and there is no proof of this, it is tantamount to slander. This is the same as saying that 2 men who are room mates are automatically homosexuals because they stay in the same room together, although there is no proof that they are homosexual lovers, and it could be that they are straight and have spouses but due to circumstance, they have to stay together. Would that not be slander or gossip? Having clear information with backing is important in the Gelug tradition as we do not wish to mislead others and send them the wrong way.
Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap may reside in the same mandala, and they do have an extremely close relationship with each other, but I just cannot see how is it that when you invoke Setrap, Dorje Shugden comes along because they are two distinct beings and its not possible for Dorje Shugden to come if he was not invoked. And nowhere in Setrap's short and medium length sadhana does it say it invokes Dorje Shugden in any way, so I'd like to know how you came up with the conclusion so that there is a basis for this when I explain to people.
The Basis is simple, I have been told by my teachers that when we practice Dharma sincerely and even if we don't call upon Buddha's and Dharmapala's they come with their retinues to support our practice. In the Same way when we Invoke our Dharmapala and If we are a sincere practitioner we shall receive the blessings and protection of all the other Dharmapala's. It is not far of to see that if one calls on Dorje Setrap one shall also receive the protection of Dorje Shugden to boot.
Think about it on our lineage tree's we have all the depictions of Buddha, Bodhisattva's, Lineage masters, Yidams, Daka's and Dakinis and Dharmapala's and they all come from the Heart of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorje Chang Indicating they are all actually manifestations of our kind Guru. On these lineages Tree's you can see certain Dharmapala's residing together and they always come and protect faithful practitioners even when they are not individually called upon. What more can be said of beings who reside within the same Mandala ?
The Basis is simple, I have been told by my teachers that when we practice Dharma sincerely and even if we don't call upon Buddha's and Dharmapala's they come with their retinues to support our practice. In the Same way when we Invoke our Dharmapala and If we are a sincere practitioner we shall receive the blessings and protection of all the other Dharmapala's. It is not far of to see that if one calls on Dorje Setrap one shall also receive the protection of Dorje Shugden to boot.
Think about it on our lineage tree's we have all the depictions of Buddha, Bodhisattva's, Lineage masters, Yidams, Daka's and Dakinis and Dharmapala's and they all come from the Heart of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorje Chang Indicating they are all actually manifestations of our kind Guru. On these lineages Tree's you can see certain Dharmapala's residing together and they always come and protect faithful practitioners even when they are not individually called upon. What more can be said of beings who reside within the same Mandala ?
Hmm, but does that not mean that anyone at all, irregardless or not they practice Setrap will still receive assistance from Dorje Shugden if they hold Guru devotion and study and put into practices the teachings of Gelug, and even people of other lineages will still receive his help as long as they hold on to their vows and their teachings? I have read this somewhere before, and it is a valid point of argument, but why is it that you are limiting it to Setrap only? The reasoning you gave here was to any Dharma protector at all. I was just wondering why did you mention Setrap specifically, thats all, when people could have been practicing Mahakala, Palden Lhamo or Kalarupa but due to their delusions, those higher level Dharmapalas could not help them but since Dorje Shugden has a stronger affinity with us, he can because he is able to due to the way he manifested and due to his vows, attainments and compassion.
Even though Dorje Shugden manifests specifically for the Gelugs, he also protects and assists those who hold their vows and apply the teachings. This is a known fact amongst all Dorje Shugden practitioners, because by any means, Dorje Shugden has never been sectarian. It is only due to wrong views that people would see it that way and also through lack of understanding. Therefore, it is very important for us to find out and share with others, our knowledge so that they can learn and not share the wrong ideas or concepts but something that has been proven because we do not want to end up like those people with wrong views. :) but of course we have to make sure that our ideas are stable first and that they have a source.