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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: hope rainbow on February 08, 2012, 05:22:23 PM
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Sometimes I hear people telling me: "but I do nothing wrong, I have killed no one, I am faithful to my wife, I don't cheat taxes, I don't get angry...". And yet, some of the same people also do not engage in any activity to create white karma neither.
Their karma is grey, not creating white karma, not creating black karma.
Grey karma.
What kind of rebirth does one get from grey karma?
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Gray karma leads to a rebirth in any of the six realms because one who does nothing does nothing to purify our negative karma. To purely exist as a human is due to our previous life's negative karma such as our selfishness, attachment, chasing after wealth, laziness to think beyond benefitting others but ourselves.
So even if one does not commit anything "wrong", pure attachments to the self keeps us remaining in samsara.
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As in our daily prayers - it is by the virtue of giving and other perfections that we can take rebirth in the human realm.
However, if we don't do any virtues in this human life; it's just a matter of time that the results of our black karma will ripen without the balancing input of white karma.
Only human have the great opportunity to practice virtues. To not do any virtuous deeds is as good as throwing away a gold nugget !
Grey karma is just a nice way of labelling the negative karma of not taking responsibility or not caring. It is the manifestation of our selfish mind . Hitler could kill millions of Jews because the rest of the world allowed him to do so by not doing anything about the situation.
Personally, I think if one claims he/she has not done any non virtues but by NOT doing anything good for others[/b] at all will result in rebirth in any of the 3 lower realms.
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While the practice of the paramitas will lead us to human rebirth and beyond, the main cause of human rebirth is moral discipline.if we did not practice giving, even if we are born human , we will be poor as a church mouse or never be able to hold on to any wealth even when we have it.
Grey karma means we did not accumulate merit to top up whatever we had used up. In addition it means we also never do any purification of old karma which will lead us to continue our bad ways and more demerits.
hence although the speed of being reborn in the lower realms may be slower and the depths of hell less deep, compared to those with black karma nevertheless we go down just them.
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As in our daily prayers - it is by the virtue of giving and other perfections that we can take rebirth in the human realm.
However, if we don't do any virtues in this human life; it's just a matter of time that the results of our black karma will ripen without the balancing input of white karma.
Only human have the great opportunity to practice virtues. To not do any virtuous deeds is as good as throwing away a gold nugget !
Grey karma is just a nice way of labelling the negative karma of not taking responsibility or not caring. It is the manifestation of our selfish mind . Hitler could kill millions of Jews because the rest of the world allowed him to do so by not doing anything about the situation.
Personally, I think if one claims he/she has not done any non virtues but by NOT doing anything good for others[/b] at all will result in rebirth in any of the 3 lower realms.
Thank you for sharing KG.
I read you, however, I understand that by following the refuge vows, one ensures a human rebirth.
Correct?
And yet, the refuge vows make us refrain from non virtuous actions,
they are not vows that makes us engage in virtuous actions creating white karma...
We don't do evil, yet we don't do virtuous.
Thus it is grey karma that is created created, right?
Can you help me understand this point?
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if you would to aware of 6th chan patriarch huineng, he was living together with the bandit to optimise towards the fairly supreme enlightenment. he could have travel to the monastery instead, but did not. refuge vow is enlightenment. one ought to realize enlightenment and harness it to a high level. as for grey karma mentioned above, this the category of ignornce beings who does not know innate refuge vow and will follow the last breath. basically, if you cause harm to livimg beings like non vegetarianism is in itself not a wise karmic. it depends on their last breath, usually there will be karmic debtors to collect debt in its last breath as the mind in last breath is usually filmsy losting their awareness. hope its helpful. amitabha
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How fortunate to be born as a human in a conducive environment where dharma can be heard. Yet to be born as a human and not doing anything to collect merits for future lives is a waste of this precious human body.
In previous lives, we collect positive and negative karma. If we do nothing to purify our previous negative karma in this live and accumulate merits to replenish what we have used up to take this human rebirth to learn the dharma than our negative karma will be more than our positive karma which will keep accumulating and bring us down to the three lower realms.
By not doing anything good for others due to our laziness, ego, attachment, selfishness, laid back attitude is negative karma so this will bring us down to the three lower realms.
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Yes HR , as KG said if we don't do non virtues following the refuge vows it will be a matter of time that our positive karma be all used up and results of the negative actions done in previous life times ripen. So accumulating grey karma alone in this life time is NOT a guarantee that one will not fall into any one of the 3 lower realms in the next life !
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Sometimes I hear people telling me: "but I do nothing wrong, I have killed no one, I am faithful to my wife, I don't cheat taxes, I don't get angry...". And yet, some of the same people also do not engage in any activity to create white karma neither.
Their karma is grey, not creating white karma, not creating black karma.
Grey karma.
What kind of rebirth does one get from grey karma?
Well, if any one truly does what is stated in the above (ie., do nothing wrong, etc etc... don't get angry) this person would have been quite highly evolved and attained. If this person were to be able to do this, logically this person would have some realization on karma thus, have stopped creating negative karma.
Unfortunately, most of us "think" we are doing no wrong, etc.. because the society's standard where we grew up in is totally off! The best measuring tool is to use the Lamrim or if one is fortunate to be close to a qualified Guru, then the blessings will be tremendous in mirroring back on how we are doing.
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Yes HR , as KG said if we don't do non virtues following the refuge vows it will be a matter of time that our positive karma be all used up and results of the negative actions done in previous life times ripen. So accumulating grey karma alone in this life time is NOT a guarantee that one will not fall into any one of the 3 lower realms in the next life !
You are right Kurava. I label "Grey Karma" as neutral karma. When we engage in activities that only generate grey karma, we are not adding "bonus points" to our merit bank, while everyday we live, we uses up the "bonus points" in our merit bank, as a result, these bonus points are fastly depleting.
Then there will come a situation that the negative karma , I label it as " interests due" will catch up on us. Then it is pay back time!
The function of negative karma is to bring us down....to the 3 lower realms.
So to answer the question, if we only create grey karma during our life, we will be shooting down to the 3 lower realms sooner or later.
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Yes HR , as KG said if we don't do non virtues following the refuge vows it will be a matter of time that our positive karma be all used up and results of the negative actions done in previous life times ripen. So accumulating grey karma alone in this life time is NOT a guarantee that one will not fall into any one of the 3 lower realms in the next life !
You are right Kurava. I label "Grey Karma" as neutral karma. When we engage in activities that only generate grey karma, we are not adding "bonus points" to our merit bank, while everyday we live, we uses up the "bonus points" in our merit bank, as a result, these bonus points are fastly depleting.
Then there will come a situation that the negative karma , I label it as " interests due" will catch up on us. Then it is pay back time!
The function of negative karma is to bring us down....to the 3 lower realms.
So to answer the question, if we only create grey karma during our life, we will be shooting down to the 3 lower realms sooner or later.
Hmmm... interesting thread. One could summarize the following then:
White Karma = Fixed Deposit
Black Karma = Overdraft
Grey Karma = Keeping cash in our pillows (we will run out sooner or later)
I do like the analogy of Karma being like a bank account. Whereby we will inevitably use it up unless we continue to "deposit" (white karma)... we do not ever want our bank account to be overdrawn (black karma ripening). And the thing is, karma exist whether we believe it so, if you ask me, lets play it safe and keep depositing! ;)
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I like the analogy of our karma as a Bank Account and would like to take it a step further:
At birth - was are carrying our karma with us like a Balance Sheet (an accounting term)
Balance Sheet contain the following (in a simplified form):
(A) Long Term Assets - White karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(B) Current Assets - White karma that would ripen in this life time
(C) Long Term Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(D) Current Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen in this life time
Each of us were born with a NET balance of either black karma (A+B) < (C+D) or
white karma (A+B)>(C+D)
If we have a huge amount of B, we will have a very comfortable life - but the catch is this -> it will be depleted, by enjoying the result of white karma, we also using it like money in a bank !!! Hence if we don't accumulate white karma in this life time (even though we do not collect Black karma), the white karma will eventually be depleted and very soon, we will face rebirths with net black karma and suffering with begin, let alone progressing in spiritual path.
Conclusion - do good deeds, practice giving and generosity, collect white karma while we can, in all our lives from now on and at the same time avoid bad deeds, engage in dharma work and prayers to purify accumulated black karma - work on our karma balance sheet!!
I hope i did not confuse anyone :-p
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I like the analogy of our karma as a Bank Account and would like to take it a step further:
At birth - was are carrying our karma with us like a Balance Sheet (an accounting term)
Balance Sheet contain the following (in a simplified form):
(A) Long Term Assets - White karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(B) Current Assets - White karma that would ripen in this life time
(C) Long Term Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(D) Current Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen in this life time
Each of us were born with a NET balance of either black karma (A+B) < (C+D) or
white karma (A+B)>(C+D)
If we have a huge amount of B, we will have a very comfortable life - but the catch is this -> it will be depleted, by enjoying the result of white karma, we also using it like money in a bank !!! Hence if we don't accumulate white karma in this life time (even though we do not collect Black karma), the white karma will eventually be depleted and very soon, we will face rebirths with net black karma and suffering with begin, let alone progressing in spiritual path.
Conclusion - do good deeds, practice giving and generosity, collect white karma while we can, in all our lives from now on and at the same time avoid bad deeds, engage in dharma work and prayers to purify accumulated black karma - work on our karma balance sheet!!
I hope i did not confuse anyone :-p
I love how you did indeed take it a notch better... I may use this if I may to explain Karma to some of my non-believing friends and relatives... :P Life is about a balance, why should Karma be any different!
So in your opinion what are the White Karma that ends up being Long Term Assets and Current Assets? And same goes for Black Karma. What are the causes or triggers that makes them open in this life or another and is there a way of "preventing" Black Karma from ripening?
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I like the analogy of our karma as a Bank Account and would like to take it a step further:
At birth - was are carrying our karma with us like a Balance Sheet (an accounting term)
Balance Sheet contain the following (in a simplified form):
(A) Long Term Assets - White karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(B) Current Assets - White karma that would ripen in this life time
(C) Long Term Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(D) Current Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen in this life time
Each of us were born with a NET balance of either black karma (A+B) < (C+D) or
white karma (A+B)>(C+D)
If we have a huge amount of B, we will have a very comfortable life - but the catch is this -> it will be depleted, by enjoying the result of white karma, we also using it like money in a bank !!! Hence if we don't accumulate white karma in this life time (even though we do not collect Black karma), the white karma will eventually be depleted and very soon, we will face rebirths with net black karma and suffering with begin, let alone progressing in spiritual path.
Conclusion - do good deeds, practice giving and generosity, collect white karma while we can, in all our lives from now on and at the same time avoid bad deeds, engage in dharma work and prayers to purify accumulated black karma - work on our karma balance sheet!!
I hope i did not confuse anyone :-p
I love how you did indeed take it a notch better... I may use this if I may to explain Karma to some of my non-believing friends and relatives... :P Life is about a balance, why should Karma be any different!
So in your opinion what are the White Karma that ends up being Long Term Assets and Current Assets? And same goes for Black Karma. What are the causes or triggers that makes them open in this life or another and is there a way of "preventing" Black Karma from ripening?
Actually, there is no way to avoid black karma (or any karma) from ripening.
The good news is this though: karma is impermanent, it changes and so we can modify the effect of black karma even if we can't avoid it.
In the same logic, we can "prevent" black karma from ripening within circumstances that are not beneficial for our spiritual practice and create conditions for the karma to ripen in conditions that are beneficial for our practice.
Often I have seen that people doing retreat see a "worsening" of their situation, "bad things" happen, obstacles arise. To surmount obstacles during a retreat is purifying the black karma and turning it into experiences that benefit our spiritual journey.
When black karma opens when we are not in retreat or not even within a spiritual journey, it's basically unpleasant and that's it... That's it...
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Yes, agree with HR.
With spiritual training, we change our views and thereby changing the experience of black karma. The examples of monks with their spirits held high no matter what tortures they endured, ordinary people born with severe disability but excelled against all odds and become a shinning beacon to many, etc. Karma is a very dynamic force, there are so many factors and conditions involved that only an enlightened mind can see clearly and unmistakenly the karma of an individual at a particular instance.
During one of the teachings by my Guru, he said something that changes my view of what is good and bad karma.
He said "what we ordinary folks consider as BAD karma is actually our good karma ripening " because most often we seek spirituality when we meet the result of our negative karma. Through spiritual training we gain knowledge on the right causes for true happiness. Thus "bad" karma turns out to be good one.
On the other hand , some one born with a silver spoon who from a worldly perception is enjoying the fruit of his good karma ; if he does not use his good condition to benefit others will most certainly exhaust all his good karma and this will be the condition for him to open up his bad karma potentiality.
To sum up, there is fixed "bad" or "good" karmas. It depends on how we use our conditions to improve , develop and explore our potentiality to its fullest.
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I read you, however, I understand that by following the refuge vows, one ensures a human rebirth.
Correct?
And yet, the refuge vows make us refrain from non virtuous actions,
they are not vows that makes us engage in virtuous actions creating white karma...
We don't do evil, yet we don't do virtuous.
Thus it is grey karma that is created created, right?
Can you help me understand this point? ( from HR )
Simply taking refuge and following the vows will only protect us from lower realm rebirths for a few lifetimes. It is not a guarantee.
The real protection comes from practicing moral discipline understanding the laws of karma after taking refuge. Why? , Without deep conviction in karma , we will continue to break our vows even if we have them, we will not be able to generate correct motivations to fully potentialize whatever positive actions we are doing. Observing the laws of our country does not necessarily make one a moral person because it is not coming from one's own wisdom about the faults of negative behaviour but rather from the fear of punishment.
HR, your understanding of grey karma here is pretty sound ! Grey of neutral karma can also be actions like coughing , sneezing, breathing which have no consequences as they are involuntary actions. Actions which are very mild can also be placed under the grey karma category, whether they are positive or negative.They are too weak to produce any results - like diluted medicine.
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Actually, there is no way to avoid black karma (or any karma) from ripening.
The good news is this though: karma is impermanent, it changes and so we can modify the effect of black karma even if we can't avoid it.
In the same logic, we can "prevent" black karma from ripening within circumstances that are not beneficial for our spiritual practice and create conditions for the karma to ripen in conditions that are beneficial for our practice.
Often I have seen that people doing retreat see a "worsening" of their situation, "bad things" happen, obstacles arise. To surmount obstacles during a retreat is purifying the black karma and turning it into experiences that benefit our spiritual journey.
When black karma opens when we are not in retreat or not even within a spiritual journey, it's basically unpleasant and that's it... That's it...
Veru true HR... It reminds me of a teaching by my Lama who describes Black Karma (Negative Karma) and how to "avoid" it in the following way:
Negative Karma will ripen and is inevitable! This we have to face. However it does not mean we cannot "avoid" it. Take for example a village in the valley of the mountains. There is a river that runs right through the village providing it the sustenance it needs, however this very river will also bring disaster (flooding) in the event of heavy snow or downpour in the mountains as the banks will surely overflow and a flood will ensue. This is inevitable and many people will suffer.
How do we stop this? We cannot stop the heavy deluge that will come down on the mountains but we can certainly divert the river. At this point my Lama draws the village the the foothills of the valley and a river that runs through it. Then my Lama proceeds to draw two lines on either side of the river at the start of the village indicating the trenches one could create to lessen the force of the river and also redirect it somewhat when the inevitable comes. (diagram shown below)
This clearly indicates we cannot stop the karma from ripening but we can take measures to lessen the impact by "creating" circumstances that "cushions" the effects of the negative karma. It still happens with the intensity that is has but the results are lesser when we are prepared!
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Negative Karma will ripen and is inevitable! This we have to face. However it does not mean we cannot "avoid" it. Take for example a village in the valley of the mountains. There is a river that runs right through the village providing it the sustenance it needs, however this very river will also bring disaster (flooding) in the event of heavy snow or downpour in the mountains as the banks will surely overflow and a flood will ensue. This is inevitable and many people will suffer.
How do we stop this? We cannot stop the heavy deluge that will come down on the mountains but we can certainly divert the river. At this point my Lama draws the village the the foothills of the valley and a river that runs through it. Then my Lama proceeds to draw two lines on either side of the river at the start of the village indicating the trenches one could create to lessen the force of the river and also redirect it somewhat when the inevitable comes. (diagram shown below)
Dear Positive Change
I appreciate the illustration of the river. How skillful. You are very fortunate to have such a lama to teach you.
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During one of the teachings by my Guru, he said something that changes my view of what is good and bad karma.
He said "what we ordinary folks consider as BAD karma is actually our good karma ripening " because most often we seek spirituality when we meet the result of our negative karma. Through spiritual training we gain knowledge on the right causes for true happiness. Thus "bad" karma turns out to be good one.
On the other hand , some one born with a silver spoon who from a worldly perception is enjoying the fruit of his good karma ; if he does not use his good condition to benefit others will most certainly exhaust all his good karma and this will be the condition for him to open up his bad karma potentiality.
Thanks Kurava,
On the same line of thoughts, this is what my Teacher told me:
"you were born in a rich country, in a rich family, you endured no hardship, you got all the things you needed and all the things you wanted, you have had heating when it was cold, you have had air-conditioning when it was hot, never did a meal not manifest for you, at least three times a day, you had a comfortable bed and your own bedroom, you had a doctor, 2 doctors, 3 specialists whenever you fell ill, you had education, you had university, you had the pubs and the parties, you had the girls, you had the social friends, you have money easily, you had insurances for everything, you were born in hell because none of this made you a better person."
So what is positive and negative karma indeed?
Whether we impute the karmic results to be at the service of worldly pursuits or at the service of spirituality, the "definition" changes.
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During one of the teachings by my Guru, he said something that changes my view of what is good and bad karma.
He said "what we ordinary folks consider as BAD karma is actually our good karma ripening " because most often we seek spirituality when we meet the result of our negative karma. Through spiritual training we gain knowledge on the right causes for true happiness. Thus "bad" karma turns out to be good one.
On the other hand , some one born with a silver spoon who from a worldly perception is enjoying the fruit of his good karma ; if he does not use his good condition to benefit others will most certainly exhaust all his good karma and this will be the condition for him to open up his bad karma potentiality.
Thanks Kurava,
On the same line of thoughts, this is what my Teacher told me:
"you were born in a rich country, in a rich family, you endured no hardship, you got all the things you needed and all the things you wanted, you have had heating when it was cold, you have had air-conditioning when it was hot, never did a meal not manifest for you, at least three times a day, you had a comfortable bed and your own bedroom, you had a doctor, 2 doctors, 3 specialists whenever you fell ill, you had education, you had university, you had the pubs and the parties, you had the girls, you had the social friends, you have money easily, you had insurances for everything, you were born in hell because none of this made you a better person."
So what is positive and negative karma indeed?
Whether we impute the karmic results to be at the service of worldly pursuits or at the service of spirituality, the "definition" changes.
How true! It clearly illustrates the point of one's perception based only from one's own perspective. And in line with what has been said above, poverty in a sense may not be so bad after all. Is it really suffering? We who are privileged may find it to be suffering but for those who have a roof over their heads (whether or not it is shack) and ample food, they may not need the so called "comforts" of modern society.
We have perhaps created our own hell... thus we are deemed to be in the degenerate time! However it does not mean being rich is bad altogether either. It could be the result of positive karma if the wealth leads us to a betterment of our spiritual goals and life in general. Using the wealth as a tool to help the Dharma. Then that is truly positive karma ripening as it will propel us further in merit making.
Whatever my hell is, I must have done something right in my previous lives to be in an opportune condition to practice and have a Guru.
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Logically there is no grey karma. Positive actions create white karma and at the same time suppress the ripening of negative karma.
Negative actions create new negative karma or enhances negative karma and suppresses the opening of positive karma.
So doing nothing with this life only means, we are self absorbed and will sit around protecting our self creating indifference, don't care attitude and not lifting our hands to either help ourselves and others.
Would such a situation create duress to people around us and we become energy sucking beings who will take from everyone and every space. Even breathing the air, though free is a valuable commodity for survival of the sentient beings on this earth, are we not depleting what can be better used by another person who will go out to help others to be better off.
With the above thoughts, it is my point of view that grey karma equates negative karma. Sorry to say!!!!
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Logically there is no grey karma. Positive actions create white karma and at the same time suppress the ripening of negative karma.
Negative actions create new negative karma or enhances negative karma and suppresses the opening of positive karma.
So doing nothing with this life only means, we are self absorbed and will sit around protecting our self creating indifference, don't care attitude and not lifting our hands to either help ourselves and others.
Would such a situation create duress to people around us and we become energy sucking beings who will take from everyone and every space. Even breathing the air, though free is a valuable commodity for survival of the sentient beings on this earth, are we not depleting what can be better used by another person who will go out to help others to be better off.
With the above thoughts, it is my point of view that grey karma equates negative karma. Sorry to say!!!!
I agreed with your points. We may not harm other people directly but how we use our lives definitely affect others. As an example when we use air conditioning we are contributing to the demand of more energy. Petrol and coal are burned as a result of this demand contributing to global warming. The warm weather is affecting quality of life of other sentient beings. Isn't this causing suffering to others?
As long as we live in samsara and just simply living we are continually affecting others' life unknowingly. Therefore actions that seems neutral could be negative karma.