dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Namdrol on March 19, 2012, 04:24:37 PM
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After we congratulate the CTA a few weeks ago for their move on taking down all the articles against Dorje Shugden (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12288 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12288)), today on a random check, those articles are back up again, it is too much of a coincidence that CTA put back up the articles at this point of time, the reasons are negative of course: out of spite, don't want to lose face, pressured by Dalai Lama etc.
Shame, shame, shame on CTA (again) for going backwards, shame on the Prime Minister Dr Lobsang Sangay (some more a Harvard Law School graduate) for allowing this, which advance government on this world put on their official website statements persecuting practitioners of a certain belief?
Back to the slogan: No wonder you lost your country CTA!!!
see here: http://tibet.net/?s=shugden&x=0&y=0 (http://tibet.net/?s=shugden&x=0&y=0)
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OH NO... Shameless really!!!! They truly do not deserve their tagline "restoring freedom for tibetans". It should read "Central Tibetan Administration - where we will chain you to submission!"
I am speechless but at the same time I felt it was too good to be true. I would like to see how Lobsang Sangay response to this reverting at a time where they are changing their political policies to include the people!
Shame Shame Shame CTA!!!!
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Thank you Namdrol. This is truly disappointing to know that Dr Lobsang Sangay has fallen back to allowing articles on ban to be back on their website! Again just weeks ago we have congratulated him for taking the stance for the benefit of all Tibetans and to rally for support towards CTA and now this?!!! Why the change of stance?
What ever it is, the ban has to be lifted fast for the benefit of all the monks and high lamas whom has been ostracized and treated unfairly. They deserve to be treated the same with all other Tibetans and need not be discriminated at all.
May the ban be lifted soon!
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This is unfortunate but at the same time I feel that Dr Lobsang should continue to receive support (for now). The Kalon Tripa faces a Parliament filled with the same old people and it will take some time for him to exert his own influence on the Parliament to effect changes.
The ban has to be lifted by the CTA and the decision for any lift of the ban must be done from the inside and at the moment, I feel that Dr Lobsang is the most likely to move the wheels of change. To attack Dr Lobsang now won't do any good and may even undermine his efforts.
Having said all that, I hope that Dr Lobsang is aware that there are a lot of people within Tibet and in the international community who are watching him and waiting to see of he will make good of the image that he portrays i.e. that of a progressive defender of true democracy and universal human rights.
What has been reinstalled in the CTA are old anti-Shugden articles. What is important to monitor is that there are no fresh ones being put up.
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You don't need to wonder why how come Tibetan Govt lost their country in the first place. You don't need to think too hard why they cannot secure it back and it's been 50 years already. Shame.
Since they have nothing to fall back on, they have to target a scapegoat for their failures on a national scale. Of course that is Dorje Shugden. He is the reason according to them for:
Dalai Lama's lack of success in getting Tibet back
Threat to Dalai Lama's life
Monks and nuns disrobing
Obstruction to the independence of Tibet and the talks
obstacles to crops
Lack of Success with the Chinese govt
The above is not what I am saying but what CTA has advertised for years as the reasons to abandon Shugden.
Well in their estimation, many have 'abandoned' Shugden. So if let say 80% have abandoned Shugden, then they should have 80% success in their works and talks by right correct? Since that is not the case, by logic abandoning Shugden 100% would not bring the desired results either. So Shugden is not the cause for any problems they have encountered. Shugden is the scapegoat of a failed nation governed by a outdated archaic group of ministers.
They may put negative remarks on their website against Shugden which shows clearly their lack of democratic freedom for their own people. The sad thing is they are slowly choking themelves to death with the proverbial Khata as they did to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen 350 years ago.
We will continue with our struggle against the ban.
Mana
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Indeed, it is very disappointing on their decision by putting up back article against Dorje Shugden. With this action, it shows how uncertain their mind are, something so simple and yet, they can change again and again. What confident they can give to their citizen that they can bring their country to be better?
With this unprofessional way of managing a country, it is worrying, Tibet is very far behind already, if this type of attitude, aren’t they indirectly pushing their country further to death? A leader of a country should be very sharp and firm with their decision, they should look into the welfare of citizen, the growth of the country.
I understand that everyone does mistake, we are not Buddha, we do make mistake, but as a leader of a country, as a graduate of Harvard, I hope he realize what brings best benefit to their country, I am concern about Dorje Shugden practitioner and I’m concern for Tibet also, there is no war now, no more fighting, it is the time everyone live together and harmony, so please lift the ban.
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How very disappointing to read about this news!
Why put back the articles which do not serve the CTA any good? Instead of moving forward and be progressive, Dr Lobsang Sangay and CTA are moving backwards!
Honestly speaking, has Dorje Shugden caused you CTA any harm at all? Why do you hate Dorje Shugden so much? Why continue to bring inconvenience and suffering to the pro-Dorje Shugden practitioners?
His Holiness Dalai Lama is no longer at the helm of the ship, why are you CTA afraid to execute a change and to remove the ban? How to be progressive in the competitive world of today if you still remain closed-minded on spiritual freedom? Why don’t you just let the religious groups manage the spiritual affairs while you focus on running the country on other pressing issues like raising the standard of living, economy, education, and etc of Tibet in Exile?
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CTA you are really so ignorant. By putting all the articles on banning Dorje Shugden shows your kind of mind set which is of narrow peasant view that is still so superstitious! Using Dorje Shugden as an excuse of your own failure in getting your independence! So totally not a Buddhist way of thinking/acting and definitely shows there is no democracy and no democratic govt... it is all a fake. No democratic govt in our world today ever talks about another religion let alone banning a religion on their official websire... it is unheard of and definitely a weird govt!
What you CTA just did is a huge slap on your own face, your beliefs, your own religion, your own govt. Last I heard, HHDL is Chenrezig and we all learnt that Buddhas cannot be harmed and that all your pujas are just another sham? Because well... news flash!... all the DS monasteries in China and other parts of the entire world is growing!!! Such a silly thing you have done by just proving to the world how undemocratic you are and everything that is on this website is confirmed true about your actions. I hope the new PM a so called educated person realises how foolish this action and the consequences to come from it.
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Shame. They should have taken down any "Dolgyal" related article and stop putting down their own culture & religion. I came across an interesting section about Issues facing Tibet Today (http://tibet.net/about-tibet/issues-facing-tibet-today/ (http://tibet.net/about-tibet/issues-facing-tibet-today/)) and thought about the basic teachings of Tibetan Buddhism of cause and effect;
Tibet lost over 6,000 monasteries and countless religious artefacts.
But they are now destroying their own "monasteries" with the ban, what's the difference?
In 2006, it was reported that there were116 known political prisoners (TCHRD, Annual Report 2006) in Chinese prisons and detention centres across the Tibetan plateau. 51 of them, are serving 10 or more years of prison terms on account of their political, religious or nationalistic views.
Many monks and laypeople are serving life-sentence of being separated with their families, being treated as outcasts and in-exile in their own communities. Who do they talk to and appeal to if the highest authorities ignore their plea?
Forced to denounce His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama recognised by him, Tibetans must pledge their allegiance to the Chinese government. Failure to do so can result in imprisonment or other forms of punishment. Possessing an image of His Holiness the Dalai Lama is today illegal in Tibet.
Well, possessing an image of Dorje Shugden is "illegal", and now the Tibetans are forved to pledge their allegiance to the CTA.
In July 2007 a new regulation was introduced, according to which all incarnate lamas or tulkus must have state approval. As well as usurping the power to recognise the Tibetan spiritual figures, Beijing hopes — through the implementation of this regulation — to rule the land and people of Tibet through state-sponsored lamas or tulkus.
Not much difference I see, nowadays the Tibetan Buddhist circle is confused with Tulkus or incarnations that are "recognised by the Dalai Lama", and "the other one" that is not recognised by the Dalai Lama or CTA.
The Central Tibetan Administration solemnly maintains that the Chinese government’s treatment of Tibetans in Tibet is in breach of the rights to life, liberty and security and the freedom of expression, religion, culture and education.
I think the CTA should first stop the breach to the rights to life, liberty and security and the freedom of expression, religion, culture and education in their own community first, before appealing to the world.
Please stop mistreating your own people and stop being hypocrites, then perhaps the causes for real freedom will arise.
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By putting back the articles against Dorje Shugden, it is like saying "Restoring Freedom for Tibetans" but only within our terms. We tell you what is good. What your Guru tells you is wrong! You don't have rights! We fight for your freedom without success for 50 years but this "spirit" is the problem, not us. Well, after so many years of banning the "spirit", how come still no success???
The CTA is a secular government. But is it a people's government, by the people, for the people? I doubt it. It is a puppet government. Worse than dictatorial government. At least, with dictators, we can still blame the dictators. Puppets just do the dirty work.
What a shame! Dr Lobsang, what have you learned about human rights at Harvard? I am human, I am right. You are not human, you are not right? So you basically saying Dorje Shugden practitioners are not human??!!
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I really would like to know their motive behind putting the articles back up. Seeing as they has removed them before they must have consciously put them back up, from the orders of someone. I wonder if they got pressure from someone? It is is step backwards, and there obviously must be some explanation behind their actions.
For me the CTA are a gone case, they really have not don't much of purpose. In fact recently all they are doing is blaming China for all the self immolations that seem to be occurring. Maybe they should really look into the root of the problem, rather that blaming. I really hope Lobsang Sangay turns around, and changes something, because he is in the position to make a political stand, and perhaps start one of the most controversial political turnarounds.
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This is bad and disappointed.
Dr Lobsang Sangay has not fully control the situation yet and CTA is still with their old set of mind and action.
We have mistaken the situation but I still believe in Dr Lobsang Sangay. He might still face the problem with the old timer in CTA. By saying so, something still needs to be done. Time just passes.
People still watching for the result. Dr Lobsang Sangay needs to come up with something! There are people still suffering and needed help and hope to continue their lives. Dr Lobsang Sangay needs to push further for a change!
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CTA has stil not grown up yet despite everything that the Dalai Lama has done for them and despite whatever changes that they have been implementing to improve or whatsoever, but it seems that they are reverting to their old ways of superstition and mixing state politics with administration and governmental functions. They will not be able to do their work efficiently.
I don't see the indian parliament use superstition from the hindu religion dictate how they control and manage the country. And CTA is supposed to adopt the ways and workings of the indian government? How? they are not even following the first step correctly. They're just adopting parts of the system…but since it is a system, if it is not followed correctly and one component fails, the system will surely break down and not work as expected.
There is nothing wrong with mixing religion and state politics - provided if it does not affect the state of the people and also that the government is not biased against a certain minority of people that are within the country and persecute them. Governments who this sort of thing do not deserve to even exist because they are making a mockery of their own religion and also inflicting suffering on their own people.
China, by far is so much better than the CTA. First of all, the Chinese do not discriminate against their citizens, but they do have some harsh measures that are implemented to maintain the peace of the nation and everyone receives the same punishment if they are doing the same crime. I think this is fair compared to what the CTA is doing now…persecuting others based on their beliefs..
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This is very disappointing news. I had been so encouraged that the CTA were moving on with the times and being progressive and all that. I do recognise the difficult position which Dr Lobsang Sangay is in – I am sure there is internal pressure from the Dalai Lama’s office on this. Giving Dr Lobsang Sangay the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he was trying to be progressive but the Dalai Lama or the Dalai Lama’s office put pressure on him to put the articles back.
Unfortunately, if Dr Lobsang Sangay wants to be taken seriously by the international community, he has to make a stand for the people – for Tibetans and that INCLUDES Dorje Shugden practitioners. How can he be a Kalon Tripa JUST for non-DS practitioners?
Saying that, I am reminded of a fantastic post by TK awhile back, which is called “Why Dorje Shugden has to be the bad guy” – it makes a lot of sense.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0)
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Thank you for this post, Namdrol. This is disappointing news. What is the reason for putting the articles back? Not too long ago Dr Lobsang Sangay was praised for his stance for the Tibetans and now he allows the articles back. Why can't he make a firm decision. As a graduate from the Harvard Law School, his actions and thinking are not better than the CTA. Shame on you Dr. Lobsang Sangay, your people are suffering and need help yet you have no control of the situation. How to unite your country if you are such a weak leader?
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Well, what do you expect from an archaic government who lives on false hope and that attempts to fool the Tibetans and international crowd by appearing to take on the modern garb of democracy. But in reality, nothing really had changed. Nobody in the CTA is truly concern for average Tibetan man and woman. They are just concerned whether they are in league with the Dalai Lama or not.
It is just too bad for CTA. No wonder the downgrade and its no wonder that the CTA will slide down the path of degeneration and slowly and surely, all hopes for Tibetan liberation will be snuffed out. Eventually, all that is left of the Tibetans overseas would be a slow but steady assimilation into mainstream Indian society. The wealthier Tibetans will run overseas and all that is left of the CTA will be no more.
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I really would like to know their motive behind putting the articles back up. Seeing as they has removed them before they must have consciously put them back up, from the orders of someone. I wonder if they got pressure from someone? It is is step backwards, and there obviously must be some explanation behind their actions.
For me the CTA are a gone case, they really have not don't much of purpose. In fact recently all they are doing is blaming China for all the self immolations that seem to be occurring. Maybe they should really look into the root of the problem, rather that blaming. I really hope Lobsang Sangay turns around, and changes something, because he is in the position to make a political stand, and perhaps start one of the most controversial political turnarounds.
Jeremyg, to answer your question, their motiovs of putting up the anti-shugden articles again is simple.....Dr Lobsang Sangay is under "pressure" again. You are absolutely right, CTA is a gone case, if Dr Lobsang Sangay can not make change and mixes politics with religion again in CTA, then CTA is just another puppet, with strings held closely to the Dalai Lama's hand.
I would tell Dr Lobsang Sangay, once you bow down to this, you are also just another puppet, and to be honest, we are not really interested in any puppet show from a Harvard Graduate.
Such as shame indeed!!!!
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You move a step forward, then you move ten step backwards, CTA! You give hope, then you crush it. By taking down the articles in the first place, and now, by putting it back up again, what are you trying to say, what is it that you're proving?
It shows how fickled you are, and that maybe there's a little bit of pressure on your government, and you get scared and chose to stay where you are. How will the nation progress as one, with such a fickled government? How can you fight for the rights and freedom for the People when you don't even fight for the rights of the People? silly silly.
Maybe the forum post/article that was posted about the articles being removed from the CTA webiste (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1739.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1739.0)), garnered too much attention and the alerted CTA was afraid it would backfire, so they put it back up. It is time you stood up for the good of the people and not be dictated by face, and ego.
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Ha! My euphoria lasted shorter than the seasonal weather, just as I thought that those people in CTA have decided to garner their effort and work for the plight of Tibetans and not infringe on the religious rights of others practicing Dorje Shugden, then WHAM! It just shows their ego is more important than anything and anybody else.
It does not matter if one has the intelligence of a genius, but it is the correct attitude plus compassion that counts.
Dr Lobsang Sangay: how do you sleep at night, sir?
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Looks like the new Prime Minister, Dr Lobsang Sangay's education overseas didn't do much good for Tibetans. Any educated person would know that Governments do not get involved in religious matters. What happened to human rights and religious freedom?
Posting messages against the practice of Dorje Shugden on CTA's website is an open invitation for more bad publicity. It only shows that Dr Lobsang Sangay is just like the rest of CTA, narrow minded and does not look after the welfare of his citizens. There are so many pressing issues and yet, CTA chooses to create more problems to their citizens who practice Dorje Shugden. This is a form of prejudice. Perhaps the CTA should be sued for no religious freedom!
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Now Im thinking of Dr. Lobsang Sangay's otherwise. Instant lost of respect. I really thought he would be different after all it has been proven that spiritual and politics don't mix well all these years. With so much big international level news coverage on the ban created so much bad reputation to the Tibetans and Buddhism; I thought he would reevaluate the situation and take care of his people and most important what Tibet represents, peace, harmony and spirituality. Now he is really pushing it. What else can CTA do after His Holiness's passing? No offense, this won't make any difference except for the separation among their own people and fighting points about a deity whether is a demon or not. Just so silly.
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I did a check on the tibet.net again, and yes, the articles seem to be back up again.
However, the articles do not talk much about Shugden at all. Most of them are just 1 line of "mentioning" the word Shugden. Also, the articles are quite old (you can check the date of the articles).
When comparing the tone of voice of HH Dalai Lama on Shugden matters a few years ago, and the latest initiation, His talk on this matter has toned down very much. As such, I still see it as a good sign.
To me, I am not sad or anything. It just mean we need to work harder :)
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reading this news the first thing which came to mind is that there sure's a lot happening in the CTA! I am sure Dr Lobsang Sangay and the entire cabitnet has been discussing and debating furiously in their meetings. On one hand you might think that Dr lobsang is a yes-man to the Dalai Lama and on the other, his upbringing and education at Harvard would have somehow influenced his leadership in the CTA!
I take it as a sign of struggle for change within the CTA. Much as I hope they'll take the entire protector issue down from their site and issue forth a different statement altogether on their stance of the issue, I think it will take time before that happens. While that's in the pipeline, let's focus here on raising awareness of the issue and bring the entire CTA's ignorrance to an end!
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No matter what, one thing is clear, the reason why CTA put up anti-shugden articles again at this time is not a coincidence, it is exactly because dorjeshugden.com people highlighted it and "congratulated" them.
It is really ridiculous, that any government will actually change their policy overnight, but this is exactly what is happening here, just because somebody decided to email them about the missing articles, then overnight they put it up again, a government policy that changed overnight, literally.
So it shows you how childish and flippant the whole CTA is, a kangaroo court, so again we come back to this: this is exactly why they lost their country, and furthermore being downgraded from a "government-in-exile" to a mere "administration".
Although I must say I do sympathize with Dr Lobsang Sangya's dilemma, but I am sure his Harvard education will do him good eventually.
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Well let's hope Dr. LS can live up to his good education and as a Havard graduate, not put Havard reputation in a bad light as people will naturally look at these sort of worldly labels. They will wonder and question in insult of such a Havard produce?
If you are reading this forum Dr. Lobsang which I believe you are... you should be wise and really exercise the democratic philosophy of the world that is ethical and gives freedom to all equally... without prejudices to what they believe. Lift the inhuman ban of your own people and unit them in harmony if you wish your community and voice to heard strongly. If you are a REAL LEADER for you "people"!
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I dont understand. Why put something that has been removed? Why put something that is outdated? Is the mighty CTA being threatened by some unknown party to put up the articles for whatever reason, but the people managing the website does not wish that it be put in the website? If it is, why is it being threatened at the moment? is it because the government and the people there are already very screwed up by now?
Lets have a look at the situation. In the al-jazerra video which covers the discrimination against Dorje Shugden practitioners (which, plenty of anti Shugden crusaders would be shocked to re-examine their stance), it is very clearly that all of the Tibetan related societies amongst the exiles are against Dorje Shugden because they are merely political tools to control the people. If someone says very much as "I want to be president", they will be taken away for plotting against the government.
Threats, blackmail and all kinds of political machinations are not new in Tibet. And they carried it over to them when they went into exile, hoping that a system that worked 500 years ago still works now. But it does not work now anymore and yet they want to continue. Governments these days operate in a more transparent manner and these methods that has caused CTA to fail for so long must change.
So, why is the current, new and improved CTA giving in to threats and the like? That is they are, and it does seem that they are under threat…from who? what? perhaps they should just say no and fight back or else they cannot grow anymore..
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What were they thinking of? Is it because they could not take the acknowledgment that was given to them by so many people especially from this forum? Or was there pressure from the Dalai Lama to put them up again because of the acknowledgment from people. The Dalai Lama is losing face and could not take it and therefore instructed Mr. Lobsang Sangay to put them up again.
If that is so, you are just a puppet, Mr. Kalon Tripa. Where are your policies which are people oriented and fight for the freedom of all Tibetans? Even the content of a website, you cannot control! What about other policies to bring your country (or people) growth and stability? That is what all Tibetans are looking forward to each day!
No wonder nothing gets done when you go back and forth on the same issues!
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I guess they took it off just to deceive us and then quietly put it up again expecting us not to know. They miscalculated, not realizing we are not as dumb as they are. Sorry for the rude word but i really do not know of any other words to describe them.
Nothing they say are based on facts. But here at dorjeshugden.com everything has factual support. I got to know about dorje shugden here and have been hooked on since. No other places have so much information about dorje shugden. I remember going to other dorje shugden websites and found out most of their info are extracted from here!
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I understand everyone’s feeling here, but by shooting fire to CTA again and again, is this necessary? If CTA does operate from Ego and Face as what you all mentioned, so, by shooting at them, do you think they will follow or going all the way to prove themselves right.
The earlier removal of Dorje Shugden content might be an attempt that they slowly putting it down, but when they are trying to do so, people start to put a lot of attention to them, due to the ego and face, that’s why they put it up?
Have we ever tried by giving support to them? Not shouting at them from the other side, but to show them care, Dorje Shugden is aligning with them. Action speaks louder than words, if we all (Dorje Shugden Practitioner) act and speaks the same, bring peace, spread Dharma teaching, etc. Since now scolding doesn’t seems to bring any positive response, so should we show our care and to encourage them to do the right thing?
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I thought I would do a check on the CTA website and found two interesting points I would like to share with everyone?
1) I did a quick check and noticed no articles on DS? and wondered whether I am just seeing things???
2) HHDL won a peace medal from San Diego University in his acceptance speech he mentions two commitments he will keep for the rest of his life see below:
On the issue of promoting inner values, His Holiness pointed to the theme of his visit to San Diego (that was printed on a banner behind the stage) and said there was the need for people to cultivate compassion without borders. He said compassion with borders was at the biological level and related to one’s concern for one’s family, etc. However, this type of compassion could be taken as the seed and using human intelligence and applying scientific findings people could strive for compassion without borders,
He said one could generate this feeling by having the mindset that just as one wanted happiness and love for oneself others, too, have the same desire. Through this show of concern for the wellbeing of others one can eventually expand to concern for even one’s enemy.
On the commitment to promote religious harmony, His Holiness said this was a level of him being a Buddhist. He said in India, beside the homegrown religions many other religious traditions co-exist. Therefore, India is a living example of the ability of different religious communities living together with mutual respect and for mutual benefit.
His Holiness said he would remain committed to these two commitments till his death. He explained that the reason why he was expanding on these points was because the media too had a role in promoting awareness of these. People need to realize that the real source of happiness was within them and not depended on power or money. His Holiness said that while the media ought to report on negative developments, they also needed to talk about the above issues, particularly since in a democracy the media had an important role.
If this is truly the case not seeing DS articles on the website? increased awareness regarding DS issues by DS.com and media also plays a role in promoting awareness that the actions and words of religious traditions can exist together can also include DS practitioners inside and outside of Tibet.
Anyways I pray that this is the beginning of better things to come?
xo
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Dear CTA,
I know you are reading this and you must be wondering what to do now. Poor things.
First you got so much flak for putting up nasty and untrue things about Dorje Shugden. So much so that you decided to out your tail between your legs and remove the offending section in hopes that the noise would quiet down.
Sadly for you, then came an outpouring of congratulations and praises for your having done the right thing, and you must have felt small and insignificant and perhaps conned into doing so. As the comments continued, you felt more and more unsure of yourself and one day, during one of your oh so significant meetings, you all decided the next best thing to do was to renege on your previous decisions and put the offending content up again in hopes that all the talking would stop!!
Imagine your despair when you realised your actions are being tracked and followed all over the world with hope, that became disgust when we all realised you are a sham of a government hiding behind the coattails of your predecessor the Dalai Lama who at least had the balls (excuse my English) to make a stand for what he felt was right, regardless of whether it was right or not. But you, if you realise deep in your hearts that the ban on Dorje Shugden is wrong, and you have the decency to do something about it, then DO IT and stop going back and forth like a confused grandmother who pretends to know what she is doing.
Come on CTA. Take the flak for the last time and remove the section on Dorje Shugden because you know it is the right thing to do and you are a progressive government and you realise you are no longer living in the middle ages.
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This is what they do best, it's like they have nothing else better to do in life LOL. The CTAs are so lame and all they do is making up stories and twisting facts around. I'm truly speechless of their actions, so malicious.
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It is unfortunate but it is the nature of samsara that is contaminated with world concerns like politics. In this case, even Dharma is affected by politics. In samsara everything is driven dependently by karma and merits. It is the karma of our age to have the CTA manipulating the Protector practice to cover for their failures and it is the merit for many to benefit from being introduced to the Protector practice.
So the same events can have different results for different people because everyone have different karma.