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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thor on April 07, 2012, 05:29:42 AM
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Don't you love it? There are texts galore about Guru Devotion, how to apply it, how important it is, and why it is the fundamental pillar of Vajrayana Buddhism. Then comes along the Dalai Lama, and explains to you HOW TO QUESTION YOUR GURU!.
Extracted from: http://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_Advice_of_Guru_Dalai_Lama.html (http://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_Advice_of_Guru_Dalai_Lama.html)
Questioning the Advice of the Guru
by H.H. the XIV. Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso
You should do everything your guru tells you to do, even if it seems strange, right? Wrong. According to His Holiness the Dalai Lama every student is responsible for checking the guru’s instructions against reason and Dharma. The rationalizations that many students tell themselves in the face of odd guru behaviours – »It must be a teaching« or »It’s crazy wisdom that you can’t question« or »It’s a test« - serve only to damage students who don’t understand that even powerful teachers have personalities that sometimes have blind spots and make mistakes.
H.H. the Dalai Lama speaks strongly on this topic in this excerpt adapted from The Path to Enlightenment.¹
The offering of practice means always to live by the teachings of one’s guru. But what happens when the guru gives us advice that we do not wish to follow or that contradicts Dharma and reason? The yardstick must always be logical reasoning and Dharma reason. Any advice that contradicts these is to be rejected. This was said by Buddha himself. If one doubts the validity of what is being said, one should gently push the point and clear all doubts. This task becomes somewhat more sensitive in Highest Tantra, where total surrender to the guru is a prerequisite; but even here this surrender must be made only in a particular sense. If the guru points to the east and tells you to go west, there is little alternative for the student but to make a complaint. This should be done with respect and humility, however, for to show any negativity towards a teacher is not a noble way of repaying his or her kindness.
Perception of faults in the guru should not cause us to feel disrespect, for by demonstrating faults to us the guru is actually showing us what we should abandon. At least, this is the most useful attitude for us to take. An important point here is that the disciple must have a spirit of sincere inquiry and must have clear, rather than blind, devotion.
It is frequently said that the essence of the training in guru yoga is to cultivate the art of seeing everything the guru does as perfect. Personally I myself do not like this to be taken too far. Often we see written in the scriptures, »Every action seen as perfect.« However, this phrase must be seen in the light of Buddha Shakyamuni’s own words: »Accept my teachings only after examining them as an analyst buys gold. Accept nothing out of mere faith in me.« The problem with the practice of seeing everything the guru does as perfect is that it very easily turns to poison for both the guru and the disciple. Therefore, whenever I teach this practice, I always advocate that the tradition of »every action seen as perfect« not be stressed. Should the guru manifest unDharmic qualities or give teachings contradicting Dharma, the instruction on seeing the spiritual master as perfect must give way to reason and Dharma wisdom.
Take myself, for example. Because many of the previous Dalai Lamas were great sages and I am said to be their reincarnation, and also because in this lifetime I give frequent religious discourses, many people place much faith in me, and in their guru yoga practice they visualize me as being a Buddha - I am also regarded by these people as their secular leader. Therefore, this teaching of »every action seen as perfect« can easily become poison for me in my relationship with my people and in my effective administration. I could think to myself, »They all see me as a buddha, and therefore will accept anything I tell them.« Too much faith and imputed purity of perception can quite easily turn things rotten. I always recommend that the teaching on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should not be stressed in the lives of ordinary practitioners. It would be an unfortunate affair if the Buddhadharma, which is established by profound reasoning, were to have to take second place to it.
Perhaps you will think: »The Dalai Lama has not read the Lam Rim scriptures. He does not know that there is no practice of Dharma without the guru.« I am not being disrespectful of the Lam Rim teachings. A student of the spiritual path should rely upon a teacher and should meditate on that teacher’s kindness and good qualities; but the teaching on seeing his or her actions as perfect can only be applied within the context of the Dharma as a whole and the rational approach to knowledge that it advocates. As the teachings on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect is borrowed from Highest Tantra and appears in the Lam Rim mainly to prepare the trainee for tantric practice, beginners must treat it with caution. As for spiritual teachers, if they misrepresent this precept of guru yoga in order to take advantage of naive disciples, their actions are like pouring the liquid fires of hell directly into their stomachs.
The disciple must always keep reason and knowledge of Dharma as principal guidelines. Without this approach it is difficult to digest one’s Dharma experiences. Make a thorough examination before accepting someone as a guru, and even then follow that teacher within the conventions of reason as presented by Buddha. The teachings on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should largely be left for the practice of Highest Tantra, wherein they take on a new meaning. One of the principal yogas in the tantric vehicle is to see the world as a mandala of great bliss and to see oneself and all others as Buddhas. Under these circumstances it becomes absurd to think that you and everyone else are Buddhas, but your guru is not!
Actually, the more respect one is given the more humble one should become, but sometimes this principle becomes reversed. A spiritual teacher must guard himself or herself carefully and should remember the words of Lama Drom Tonpa, »Use respect shown to you as a cause for humility.« This is the teacher’s responsibility. The student has the responsibility of using wisdom in his or her demonstration of faith and respect.
A problem is that we usually only observe those teachings that feed our delusions and ignore those that would overcome them. This leniency can easily lead to one’s downfall. This is why I say that the teaching on seeing all the guru’s actions as perfect can be a poison. Many sectarian problems in Tibet were born and nourished by it.
The First Dalai Lama wrote, »The true spiritual master looks upon all living beings with thoughts of love and shows respect to teachers of all traditions alike. Such a one only harms delusion, the enemy within.« The different traditions have arisen principally as branches of skillful methods for trainees of varying capacities. If we take an aspect of their teachings, such as the precept of »all actions seen as perfect,« and use it for sectarian purposes, how have we repaid the past masters for their kindness in giving and transmitting Dharma? Have we not disgraced them? If we misunderstand and mispractice their teachings, it will hardly please them. Similarly, it is meritorious for a lama to perform rituals or give initiations to benefit people, but if his or her motivation is only material benefit, that person would be better off going into business instead. Using the mask of Dharma to exploit people is a great harm.
We erect elaborate altars and make extensive pilgrimages, but better than these is to remember Buddha’s teachings: »Never create any negative action; always create goodness; aim all practices at cultivating the mind.« When our practice increases delusion, negativity and disturbed states of mind, we know that something is wrong.
It is sometimes said that a major cause of the decline of Buddhism in India eight hundred years ago was the practice of Vajrayana by unqualified people, and sectarianism caused by corruption within the Sangha. Anyone teaching Tibetan Buddhism should keep this in mind when they refer to the precept, »every action of the guru is to be seen as perfect.« This is an extremely dangerous teaching, particularly for beginners.
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Autentic teachers delight in sharing the source of their own realization with the students.This often involves giving students an awarenss practice,along with pointing out instructions that help them directly recognize their own nature.This kind of guidance sharpens students perceptions so that they can better discern whether the teacher's words are true.Without a practice or method that gives them direct knowledge of what is true,students are totally dependent on the teacher to define their reality for them.The more the students' discrimination and discernment grow,the more they can appreciate the teacher's mastery;just as when we study and practice any art,we recognize the skill of an accomplish master.The teachings leads to a deeper connection to one's own being,this appreciation often grows into natural feelings of love,respect and devotion
"There are no real good or bad Gurus,there are only poor and serious students"This is so true!!Therefore if you have a Guru,,never doubt him and follow his instructions all the way.I have found mine,have you?
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If this teaching by the Dalai Lama was given with the hidden intention the question our gurus who practise Dorje Shugden, then we just simply turn it around and QUESTION THE ADVICE OF THE DALAI LAMA HIMSELF.
"The disciple must always keep reason and knowledge of Dharma as principal guidelines" - Dalai Lama
The Dalai Lama's advice is that Dorje Shugde is an evil spirit - unreasonable and not logical acording to Dharma knoweldge, so let's QUESTION THAT
The Dalai Lama says Dorje Shugden practise harms his life - - unreasonable and not logical acording to Dharma knoweldge, so let's QUESTION THAT
The Dalai Lama says Dorje Shugden.... - - unreasonable and not logical acording to Dharma knoweldge, so let's QUESTION THAT
The Dalai Lama says Dorje Shugden.... - - unreasonable and not logical acording to Dharma knoweldge, so let's QUESTION THAT
The Dalai Lama says Dorje Shugden.... - - unreasonable and not logical acording to Dharma knoweldge, so let's QUESTION THAT
The list can go on and on, and since the Dalai Lama is now opening the floodgate for students to question their gurus if the gurus' advice do not "keep reason and knowledge of Dharma as principal guidelines", then we question the Dalai Lama respectfully all the illogical advice about Dorje Shugden.
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If this is the case, then perhaps we should also tell all the four-year-olds in the world that they should check their parents'/ guardians' and schoolteachers' advice against their own logic and reasoning. So if a four-year-old feels that they do should stay up all night because they want to and it feels "right", and eat sweets all day because it feels most logical and pleasing, we should let them.
What I mean to say is that in terms of a spiritual path, almost all of us are like infants threading the Dharma journey. We may be grown men and women, but in terms of the spiritual journey, we could well be more immature and "younger" than a four-year-old.
A teacher's instructions will sometimes seem illogical and distorted to us - this is mostly because they come from a much larger perception that views things in the broadest possible sense, to incorporate the highest benefit across past, present and future. We view things from a very limited view which will not see this wider perspective and reasoning so we will of course think it is illogical and unreasonable. It's like trying to teach calculus to a kindergarten kid - they would think you're crazy!
What is important however, is to check a teacher BEFORE we take him on as a teacher. This can be done and achieved through logical, graduated methods and criteria which are clearly laid out in the scriptures (such as in 50 verses of guru devotion). We exercise some questioning and logic here, but once we decide on a teacher, we study with and commit to him fully. If not, why even take him as a teacher or receive his teachings in the first place?
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A real guru or spiritual guide’s sole purpose is to benefit others. A guru will do whatever it takes to help his students to transform their minds from a negative state to a positive state. Just like all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who cherish all sentient beings, a real guru will not harm his students in anyway as he genuinely care for them. In fact gurus will take on the sufferings of their students even if the students were being disrespectful of their gurus.
The reasons we follow a guru is because the guru is more knowledgeable, experienced and qualified in Dharma than us. Having checked thoroughly and then followed a guru, we should have no doubt on our guru’s advice. If we still have doubt, then why have we chosen to follow him in the first place?
Buddha Vajradhara had said in the Tantras that he will manifest as spiritual guides in degenerate times. Hence our gurus or spiritual guides are emanations of Buddha Vajradhara! Buddha Vajradhara’s words are completely non-deceptive and reliable. So if we have faith in Buddha Vajradhara, why do we not heed his emanations’ advice?
Does it mean that we cannot question our guru’s advice? No. We should politely check with our gurus if we have questions on the advice. No real gurus are unreasonale.
Our lack of experience, limited Dharma knowledge, and perceptions always cast doubts on our guru’s advice. We will need to trust our guru’s foresights to help us. If we can’t even trust our gurus who only want to benefit us, then whom do we trust?
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There is questioning for the sake of learning, where you genuinely do not understand the subject matter and have done your homework and it is something that is baffling you, something that escapes your comprehension that you cannot explain or know what is going on, and therefore you ask the teacher why. Sometimes it is okay to ask in that way especially when sometimes the teacher does some actions that are too radical to certain new students and the teacher will gladly explain.
However, if the student is asking for the sake of asking because it is cute to do so, or because the student is too lazy to do his or her own studies, this is obviously not a good thing. This only creates the causes for more doubt and confusion to be embedded into the students mind and cause the mind to be harder and harder towards the Dharma and more and more unable to understand the more advanced teachings.
With that said, a real teacher will always allow the students to question him, an even more compassionate teacher will also explain his every moves to his students, pre-empting their questions so that they do not do not create unfortunate results for themselves. I think, if anyone has found a teacher that is kind enough to go that way, they should never ever leave the teacher and be very thankful.
Up to now, i am very sure most of us know whether or not to ask questions just to challenge and act cute, or that we genuinely are stuck at a difficult (or simple point, depending on the level of our understanding). One is done with improper motivation and creates unfortunate results for us to experience, while the other promotes the development of intelligence and wisdom. The whole questioning the Guru is general knowledge anyway...so why do people still need to "ask?"
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I really like this teaching by Dalai Lama. Examining what the guru taught prior to accepting it and apply it in your life is a very good concept. I developed great faith in my own lama after examining his teachings and his conducts and could not find any fault with them. That is how I developed faith in him. Seeing my Lama as a Buddha has become easier as time goes by.
I personally think H.H. Dalai Lama has been so kind for giving this teaching. It is the same as saying that "please examine me whether my instruction to ban DS practice is correct." It brings to things to a whole new level. If a little effort is put out to learn about DS, one can see whether DS is a true protector or not.
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I really like this teaching by Dalai Lama. Examining what the guru taught prior to accepting it and apply it in your life is a very good concept. I developed great faith in my own lama after examining his teachings and his conducts and could not find any fault with them. That is how I developed faith in him. Seeing my Lama as a Buddha has become easier as time goes by.
I personally think H.H. Dalai Lama has been so kind for giving this teaching. It is the same as saying that "please examine me whether my instruction to ban DS practice is correct." It brings to things to a whole new level. If a little effort is put out to learn about DS, one can see whether DS is a true protector or not.
The whole ban itself seems to be done in such a way where it raises more questions than answers. The reasons he has given for the ban are not substantial and are basically statements that go against logical thinking, or merely just logical loopholes that does not really apply if you really think about it or really study and is not just caught in the personality cult that is the Dalai Lama.
Of course the Dalai Lama wants you to examine Dorje Shugden, then choose to accept or reject him based on your own understanding of the subject. That is why alongside with his criticism against Dorje Shugden, he always pairs it by asking people to investigate the teachings, including his before accepting them. Isnt that odd? why would you want to pair that teaching while speaking out against Dorje Shugden?
It is almost like a very subtle hint for people to actually see beyond his words and read between his lines with regards to the ban and to really examine and research about the statements that are being made if it is true, or if it is really as harmful as people want to believe. There will always be people who do not like Dorje Shugden for whatever reason but to take in their input entirely that Dorje Shugden is evil is kind of a no-brainer, right?
I am glad that I am not the only person who realizes that HHDL is really subverting people and more or less directly promoting Dorje Shugden in this way but yet a lot of people still choose to take his words on a surface level mainly because it is easier and that it requires less "work"... while conveniently ignoring the more critical advice.
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Questioning the Advice of the Guru
by H.H. the XIV. Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso
We erect elaborate altars and make extensive pilgrimages, but better than these is to remember Buddha’s teachings: »Never create any negative action; always create goodness; aim all practices at cultivating the mind.« When our practice increases delusion, negativity and disturbed states of mind, we know that something is wrong.
It is sometimes said that a major cause of the decline of Buddhism in India eight hundred years ago was the practice of Vajrayana by unqualified people, and sectarianism caused by corruption within the Sangha. Anyone teaching Tibetan Buddhism should keep this in mind when they refer to the precept, »every action of the guru is to be seen as perfect.« This is an extremely dangerous teaching, particularly for beginners.
That's right! This is just the right advice for those who are anti-shugden practitioners out there who zealously go against the very core of Buddhist teachings in the name of the ban. On top of that, they don't think it deeply of what the Dalai Lama is trying to create with the ban. Why can't everyone just practice real Buddhism instead of trying to look good or trying to curry favor with the so-called authorities? As Buddhists, we should have compassion for all including the spirit worshippers.
It is so blatantly obvious that Dorje Shugden is not a spirit but an emanation of Manjushri. How can Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche be wrong? How can? Otherwise, they must have been mistaken about the Lamrim and all the Tantric lineage teachings as well. Therefore, this part of the Dalai Lama's teaching is a call for everyone to practice real Buddhism and come to terms with the facts and not split the lineage apart. Monasteries have already split but it doesn't need to happen with the practitioners outside. We of the same lineage, regardless of whether we practice Dorje Shugden or not should understand the facts and not be prejudiced. Once we become prejudiced, we are deviated from the lineage and the true spirit of Buddhism.
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Thank you Thor for posting this interesting article. In the Lamrim, it is said that we must check out the Guru before we take refuge. Checking out not but the actions, but the results (whether Dharma grows) with him being around.
What HH Dalai Lama said is very valid, however, there are times where some Lama really give "crazy" instructions which does not quite make sense that the time when we receive the instruction. This is further "cluttered" when we are not in the right mind frame (such as angry, jealous, etc). Also, at times, when Guru give the instructions, He may not have the time to explain the whole meaning behind the instruction/assignment.
So, my question is, how do we draw a line? I think the key here is "clarify with humility". When we ask clarifying questions, we are not doing so to challenge, but to seek clarification, and the attitude is that we should humble and with humility.
I think the problem is not so much about the instruction is "crazy" or "does not make sense". Many of us know the reason behind the instructions, and yet, out of laziness and other reasons (such as don't want to go out of comfort zone), we don't carry out the instructions. I think this is the key of the problem.
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Thank you Thor for posting this interesting article. In the Lamrim, it is said that we must check out the Guru before we take refuge. Checking out not but the actions, but the results (whether Dharma grows) with him being around.
What HH Dalai Lama said is very valid, however, there are times where some Lama really give "crazy" instructions which does not quite make sense that the time when we receive the instruction. This is further "cluttered" when we are not in the right mind frame (such as angry, jealous, etc). Also, at times, when Guru give the instructions, He may not have the time to explain the whole meaning behind the instruction/assignment.
So, my question is, how do we draw a line? I think the key here is "clarify with humility". When we ask clarifying questions, we are not doing so to challenge, but to seek clarification, and the attitude is that we should humble and with humility.
I think the problem is not so much about the instruction is "crazy" or "does not make sense". Many of us know the reason behind the instructions, and yet, out of laziness and other reasons (such as don't want to go out of comfort zone), we don't carry out the instructions. I think this is the key of the problem.
Personally, one of the problems that especially western practitioners are facing is lack of Guru devotion and trust/faith towards the Guru. They are quick to give up on a teacher that they do not feel comfortable or happy with, merely due to the fact that they have too many teachings and too many different teachers to choose from and that they lack the proper motivation to engage in Dharma practice.
Society has dictated many things that can sometimes be harmful or non beneficial for spiritual development and unfortunately for some people these are embedded in too deep and when the lama attempts to uproot these imprints, they react very violently and negatively against the Lama and leave the Lama even though the Lama acted out of their best interests. These people start to form their own brand of Buddhism.
Worst part being, they end up advising others to do the same if their Guru pushes them too hard. I remember one case that was posted in esangha a long time ago, about a man who had aspergers and his Guru told him to do something he did not want to. He then posted it on the forum that his guru is insensitive towards his condition and the instruction hurt him very badly. The other forum members were quick to tell him to leave his own Guru in favor for their own Gurus.
I was thinking, if the man had bear with the instruction even though it was very painful in whatever way he was experiencing, perhaps he can finally overcome aspergers (which is a disability, meaning it is a lifelong condition) and become a better person. Thanks to the people in the forum, this man left his own guru with the thinking that his Guru wanted to hurt him instead of help him.
This is a very real problem in relations with what kris had mentioned.
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Timely that this thread resurrects! I have just been in an interesting discussion about Guru devotion and following the instructions and advice of the teacher.
First, I think it is important to distinguish that questioning, when done properly, can be helpful in strengthening our understanding and our faith. Questioning for understanding and to deepen our knowledge can be very beneficial. If not for questions asked by his audience, there would be many things that the Buddha had not taught. however, we must be clear that we are asking questions to gain knowledge and understanding and not simply to be belligerent, defiant, challenging or arrogant, to show that we know more than the teacher.
I was further explained this: often, we act in ways contrary to our teacher's advice, guidance or teachings. This could be something direct such as criticising him (or any other Lama), or more subtle by not following his advice, doing the opposite to what he has advised, or questioning in an arrogant way, simply to prove ourselves right and bring him down.
When this happens, we are contributing to a situation where the lama's works may be slowed down or hindered. We intimate that the teacher is not capable, not correct and therefore that we don't need to follow his instructions or that there is always room for error, for us to not follow through. in this way, whatever the teacher tries to accomplish for his students, for his organisation or for the growth of Dharma in general will correspondingly slow down. Or he will meet with obstacles - mostly created by the students, directly or indirectly - to what he needs to accomplish for beings.
In contributing to a situation like this, we each collect our own type of karmas. Then, when we DO try to accomplish something big, either as a group or individually, that karma will stop us from being able to achieve it, or there will be many, many obstacles that arise to slow down our progress. It is logical - we hinder the growth of something good, so when we try to accomplish something similar for ourselves, we also become hindered. Or we can't achieve it at all.
Similarly, the converse will therefore also be true. If acting negatively towards the teacher can create this kind of karma, then doing the opposite will reap the opposite effect. If we support our teachers' work, follow his instructions to achieve what he wishes to accomplish for us - on both an individual and group level - then we will collect a type of karma that will also flourish when we are trying to do something good, and we accomplish it easily.
So our actions towards our Lama are never just about the Lama or about him being offended, upset or pleased, happy etc If he really was so easily upset by our silly behaviours, he wouldn't be a real Lama. We have this wrong idea that guru devotion or "behaving" well in front of and in relations to our teacher is some kind of cult following. This isn't true. Ultimately, it is about the effects that it will create back on ourselves and what we hope to accomplish as individual practitioners and as a group within our Dharma communities.
In the context of Shugden practice, this should remind us as ever of the important of not simply criticising or trying to bring down the Dalai Lama. It doesn't mean we condone it either, but when we do criticise, we also destroy the faith of his students, we start to create cracks in the faith of other practitioners who may have the potential to make his good works grow in the world. When we do this, we create that same corresponding karma for our own Dharma work or even the work of our own teachers to be stunted. Is it really worth it then?
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Sounds like HHDL is opening the flood gates for people to start criticizing HIM as a GURU too... and is this deliberate??? Surely an enlightened Bodhisattva like himself would have weigh the pros and cons. There is definitely two sides of this and it is interesting to see what reactions would be created from this kind of advice.
So what happens when we start questioning HHDL i.e. as clearly pointed out by Namdrol? When we just simply turn it around and QUESTION THE ADVICE OF THE DALAI LAMA HIMSELF.
So in other words... we can dismiss everything HHDL says about Dorje Shugden because is does not make any sense and does not follow logic in accord to Dharma right? Plus to some of us HHDL is not even our root GURU hence the more we can reject. So therefore... the BAN can also be REJECTED RIGHT???
So will happen is a door is opened for the BAN to be rejected I feel and basically since HHDL has retired from politics, so it seems, and that he has been claiming that there will not be a 15th Dalai Lama.... is this final attempt to stir up the controversy of the Ban and created more waves for Dorje Shugden. This also allows Dorje Shugden practitioners to gain their freedom to practice FREELY and OPENLY back. Because we can say, "well we are just following the advice of HHDL to Question the Guru" :)
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This is a very profound teaching on Guru-Student relationship. The teaching is for both beginners and tantric practitioners. It is dangerous if we do not understand what it means by guru devotion and follow with blind faith.
For beginners:
1. There should not be blind faith. A student should examine the behaviour of a teacher in Dharma context, a guru's responsibility is on the spiritual advancement not anything beyond this scope for instance, involvement in political issues. HHDL mentions some people will make use of 'guru devotion to achieve personal interest. This is rather common in our degenerated age.
2. HHDL emphasises the importance of knowledge and experience. It is through studying and experiencing that we learn and gain realisation.
For tantric practitioners:
1. For tantric practitioners to gain attainment and realisation, students have to have complete guru devotion. There should not be doubts anymore. We have to see our guru as Buddha and everything he does is perfect, no flaws at all.
In a way, HHDL is telling us as far as spiritual practice is concerned, his political stance is not what should be followed by his student. He was forced to take on the secular works because historically since the 5th Dalai Lama he was made the political leader in Tibet. He is also delivering the message that a religious person should not take on secular works.
In short HHDL is telling us as a spiritual practitioner, it is more important to listen to one's guru.
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Personally I think a lot depends on the level of our spiritual maturity and the level of relationship we have developed with our Guru. Any doubts and questioning of the Guru should be done up front and early on in the relationship.
I think the most sound answer came from Beggar i.e to check out the Guru before we accept him or her. But once we have established a relationship with the Guru and we fully accept the Guru, then it is correct and wise to follow the Guru's instructions to the letter. Time and time again in the past, I have "analysed" my Guru's logic for doing something or giving a specific instructions...and I found none. But as things turned out I realized that, that simply meant the Guru's spiritual reason or motive is way beyond my mundane perception and worldly logic.
As for HHDL's advice re Dorje Shugden, if my Guru were to be HHDL and he instructs me to cease a particular practice then I will probably follow the instructions no matter how much I object to it and no matter how illogical it appears to me. Even if HHDL were to be wrong, he would have good spiritual reasons for it.
Similarly, if the Guru tells us to embrace a practice that has been banned.
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I may not be a completely holy and pious Buddhist practitioner but from what I have learnt and to put it simply, Guru Devotion does not equal Blind Faith. I was told by a great Teacher once to check things out before committing to one's Lama. It is like when we want to invest in a company's stocks, we will do a due diligence of the company right? I take this as a analogy which is only common sense.
In clause 6) of the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion it says, "In order for the words of honor of neither the Guru nor the disciple to degenerate, there must be a mutual examination beforehand (to determine if each can) brave a Guru-disciple relationship."
This only makes sense as when we commit to a Guru, it is not a simple act of pleasure you know? It is a commitment to take a spiritual relationship to gain attainments and learn. And this should not be taken lightly. This relationship becomes more intense when higher tantric vows and teachings are taken. It is crucial that before this time, we as students must learn thoroughly and completely from our Guru of choice. And it is only common sense that in learning we all have questions. Questions can only be answered by asking. However, like Beggar puts it eloquently, in seeking answers from the Guru we do not do so with motivation to be defiant and to find "loopholes" to do the opposite. We ask with respect and sincere motivation to learn and perform our duties so that we can collect the merits for attainments.
Please read this:
http://www.bodhicitta.net/FIFTY%20STANZAS%20OF%20GURU%20DEVOTION.htm (http://www.bodhicitta.net/FIFTY%20STANZAS%20OF%20GURU%20DEVOTION.htm)
Therefore, in this text extracted by Thor, I do not read the teaching of HHDL as negative. In fact if the advise is taken one can realize a beautiful and longterm relationship with a Guru which will last a life time and many more. In asking questions it means that we are in pursuit of knowledge, and I am very sure that any Guru would be most please to know that his students are hungry for knowledge.
As for the context of the Dorje Shugden, we can interpret it to relate. I see it as if HHDL can say to question then his students can question him on this. But question with respect and with the intent of harmony. I will not take it aggressively.
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It is very important to check out the teacher that we are about to take refuge in or accept as our teacher, tutor and guide. The Guru guides us not only in this life but in all future lives as well which is why we have to check very carefully to see if the teacher is qualified to guide us or not. Many people these days take Guru devotion very lightly and think that they can just abort their current Guru if their Guru stops saying words that please their ears or challenges the a little for another one, since there are so many. Nobody really bothers to check anymore these days. According to the 50 verses, the criteria of a proper teacher are:
7. A disciple with sense should not accept as his Guru someone who lacks compassion or who is angersome, vicious or arrogant, possessive, undisciplined or boasts of his knowledge.
8. (A Guru should be) stable (in his actions), cultivated (in his speech), wise, patient and honest. He should neither conceal his shortcomings, nor pretend to possess qualities he lacks. He should be an expert in the meanings (of tantra) and in its ritual procedures (of medicine and turning back obstacles). Also he should have loving compassion and a complete knowledge of the scriptures.
9. He should have full experience in both ten fields, skill in the drawing of mandalas, full knowledge of how to explain the tantras, supreme faith and his senses fully under control.
you can have a very fierce teacher, a very quiet one, a famous one, an unrecognized one, but no matter what he or she needs to have the qualities listed in these 3 verses. If they have, it means they are qualified. It is not a technical thing per se, but something that we have to put our effort in to get close to the teacher and observe, or observe via his teachings and going through them and see. Another way is to observe the students.
There is nothing wrong with questioning the Guru to understand more about him but it is not right to question the Guru to challenge him or to avoid his assignments, or to discredit his Dharma, or even to hurt him. People these days are no longer aware of what is a fine line between questioning for knowledge or questioning to put down or undermine. If it is the former, the Guru will always be happy to answer but if it is the latter, one just creates the causes to never have a teacher, ever.
I have seen and met people who walk into the center, demanding to meet the Lama and the questioning the Lama all kinds of questions, and then when the answer is different than what the person expects, they will ask the question again until they get the answer they WANT to hear, not the real answer. If they dont get what they want to hear, they literally scorn the lama and put him down, either in front of the lama or behind his back. That is the kind of questioning that is "not allowed" in this context. Questioning like "Dear Lama, why do you act in such a way? I do not understand and to prevent myself from misunderstanding you, please in all kindness, explain" is obviously permissible. If the lama does not respond to that, or responds in an aggressive way, something is up with him.
This is just very, very basic logic. Not too hard to know if we are questioning to learn or to question to put down our Lama. Not rocket science, but glad that the Dalai Lama explained about it anyway.
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I really like this teaching by Dalai Lama. Examining what the guru taught prior to accepting it and apply it in your life is a very good concept. I developed great faith in my own lama after examining his teachings and his conducts and could not find any fault with them. That is how I developed faith in him. Seeing my Lama as a Buddha has become easier as time goes by.
I personally think H.H. Dalai Lama has been so kind for giving this teaching. It is the same as saying that "please examine me whether my instruction to ban DS practice is correct." It brings to things to a whole new level. If a little effort is put out to learn about DS, one can see whether DS is a true protector or not.
The whole ban itself seems to be done in such a way where it raises more questions than answers. The reasons he has given for the ban are not substantial and are basically statements that go against logical thinking, or merely just logical loopholes that does not really apply if you really think about it or really study and is not just caught in the personality cult that is the Dalai Lama.
Of course the Dalai Lama wants you to examine Dorje Shugden, then choose to accept or reject him based on your own understanding of the subject. That is why alongside with his criticism against Dorje Shugden, he always pairs it by asking people to investigate the teachings, including his before accepting them. Isnt that odd? why would you want to pair that teaching while speaking out against Dorje Shugden?
It is almost like a very subtle hint for people to actually see beyond his words and read between his lines with regards to the ban and to really examine and research about the statements that are being made if it is true, or if it is really as harmful as people want to believe. There will always be people who do not like Dorje Shugden for whatever reason but to take in their input entirely that Dorje Shugden is evil is kind of a no-brainer, right?
I am glad that I am not the only person who realizes that HHDL is really subverting people and more or less directly promoting Dorje Shugden in this way but yet a lot of people still choose to take his words on a surface level mainly because it is easier and that it requires less "work"... while conveniently ignoring the more critical advice.
Yes I agree with what have been said by both of you. It is, I feel personally a method HHDL is using for us to look inside ourselves, inside our minds. To examine for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. Because the very foundations of our faith in Dorje Shugden has to be erected based on that and not based on what someone told you.
Yes we have the guidance of our kind and compassionate Guru/Gurus, but take for example the issue of the ban... how many "fall wayside" because they merely were told what to do and not doing it because they truly want to or have faith in. Such is the true strength of a believer and sincere practitioner.
As much as we asked Dorje Shugden to never waver when it comes to our "problems", we too must stand steadfast in support of our King.
Hence to recap, what I sincerely believe is HHDL instilling in us and teaching us the true value of contemplation and self analysis in order for us to come to our own conclusions as to what we have to do. If HHDL were to say today... I was "wrong" everybody HAS to propitiate Droje Shugden, you think everyone will? Certainly NOT the Chinese! So on that same logic, perhaps it really is best to give the world the "forbidden fruit" and let them make their own minds up about the practice.
If that is not true compassion, I do not know what is!
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Well, following the 50 stanzas verse 46 onwards... it clearly states that you do not question anymore when you checked and seal a relationship with your Guru... basically you had ample time to check before making a decision to brave a Guru Disciple relationship.
46. What need is there to say much more. Do whatever pleases your Guru and avoid doing anything he would not like. Be diligent in both of these.
47. “Powerful attainments follow from (doing what) your Guru (likes).” This has been said by (the Buddha) Vajradhara himself. Knowing this, try to please your Guru fully with all the actions (of your body, speech and mind).
48. After a disciple has taken refuge in the Triple Gem and developed a pure (Enlightened) motive, he should be given this (text) to take to his heart (how to abandon his own arrogant self-will and) follow in his Guru’s footsteps (along the Graded Path to Enlightenment).
49. (By studying the prerequisite trainings of Guru-devotion and the Graded Path, common to both the Sutra and Tantra,) you will become a (suitable) vessel (to hold) the pure Dharma. You may then be given such teachings as Tantra. (After receiving the proper initiations,) recite out loud the fourteen root vows and take them sincerely to your heart.
Hence no more questioning the Guru and what the Guru tells you to do. Of course no questioning here means no more doubting and just basically trust.
...I sincerely believe is HHDL instilling in us and teaching us the true value of contemplation and self analysis in order for us to come to our own conclusions as to what we have to do. If HHDL were to say today... I was "wrong" everybody HAS to propitiate Droje Shugden, you think everyone will? Certainly NOT the Chinese! So on that same logic, perhaps it really is best to give the world the "forbidden fruit" and let them make their own minds up about the practice.
However the different perspective presented here sure is interesting... and I do think Positive Change your perspective is most likely what is happening. I mean, it sure is a huge test to the world as HHDL could be rooting out and exposing those who are not loyal, not sincere and well have no Guru Devotion and those who do. Imagine after His Holiness passes... how many of them would be lost and have no more voice, when that happens we can identify the back stabbers and disloyal ones.
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Yes I agree with what have been said by both of you. It is, I feel personally a method HHDL is using for us to look inside ourselves, inside our minds. To examine for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. Because the very foundations of our faith in Dorje Shugden has to be erected based on that and not based on what someone told you.
Yes we have the guidance of our kind and compassionate Guru/Gurus, but take for example the issue of the ban... how many "fall wayside" because they merely were told what to do and not doing it because they truly want to or have faith in. Such is the true strength of a believer and sincere practitioner.
As much as we asked Dorje Shugden to never waver when it comes to our "problems", we too must stand steadfast in support of our King.
Hence to recap, what I sincerely believe is HHDL instilling in us and teaching us the true value of contemplation and self analysis in order for us to come to our own conclusions as to what we have to do. If HHDL were to say today... I was "wrong" everybody HAS to propitiate Droje Shugden, you think everyone will? Certainly NOT the Chinese! So on that same logic, perhaps it really is best to give the world the "forbidden fruit" and let them make their own minds up about the practice.
If that is not true compassion, I do not know what is!
In my opinion, those who fall "wayside" due to the ban would create even more negativities for themselves in the long run if they were in Dharma. They would eventually misrepresent Buddhism, and destroy the Dharma from the inside. Remember that mara told the Buddha that he will destroy Buddhism from the inside by posing as disciples who will twist and control the teachings right before the Buddha passed away. Having wayward disciples who do not practice and who misrepresent the teachings or misinterpret them and then spread that misinterpretation is the fastest way to destroy the teachings. So, if these people are kept away from the actual training, at least they have the imprints for their next life but if they are giving the full training despite their shortcomings, the damage that they do to others and themselves will be much more and it might even destroy whatever seeds of Dharma they have in their minds.
Obviously, HHDL cannot say "Sincere people, step this way" so the ban was a perfect way of separating the better quality practitioners from the lower quality practitioners. And I believe it is working in more ways than one as the lesser practitioners just give up and abandon Buddhism but still retain some imprints, or some who still hang on to be "Buddhist" will only do the practices on the surface but do not get the higher teachings and distort them and somehow they will not be able to get near the higher teachings...the ban basically combed out the political, unstable and immature practitioners from the Dharma centers, and only the serious practitioners will hold on to their Guru's samaya and instructions, irregardless of the ban or not.
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Don't you love it? There are texts galore about Guru Devotion, how to apply it, how important it is, and why it is the fundamental pillar of Vajrayana Buddhism. Then comes along the Dalai Lama, and explains to you HOW TO QUESTION YOUR GURU!.
Extracted from: [url]http://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_Advice_of_Guru_Dalai_Lama.html[/url] ([url]http://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_Advice_of_Guru_Dalai_Lama.html[/url])
Questioning the Advice of the Guru
by H.H. the XIV. Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso
You should do everything your guru tells you to do, even if it seems strange, right? Wrong. According to His Holiness the Dalai Lama every student is responsible for checking the guru’s instructions against reason and Dharma. The rationalizations that many students tell themselves in the face of odd guru behaviours – »It must be a teaching« or »It’s crazy wisdom that you can’t question« or »It’s a test« - serve only to damage students who don’t understand that even powerful teachers have personalities that sometimes have blind spots and make mistakes.
H.H. the Dalai Lama speaks strongly on this topic in this excerpt adapted from The Path to Enlightenment.¹
The offering of practice means always to live by the teachings of one’s guru. But what happens when the guru gives us advice that we do not wish to follow or that contradicts Dharma and reason? The yardstick must always be logical reasoning and Dharma reason. Any advice that contradicts these is to be rejected. This was said by Buddha himself. If one doubts the validity of what is being said, one should gently push the point and clear all doubts. This task becomes somewhat more sensitive in Highest Tantra, where total surrender to the guru is a prerequisite; but even here this surrender must be made only in a particular sense. If the guru points to the east and tells you to go west, there is little alternative for the student but to make a complaint. This should be done with respect and humility, however, for to show any negativity towards a teacher is not a noble way of repaying his or her kindness.
Perception of faults in the guru should not cause us to feel disrespect, for by demonstrating faults to us the guru is actually showing us what we should abandon. At least, this is the most useful attitude for us to take. An important point here is that the disciple must have a spirit of sincere inquiry and must have clear, rather than blind, devotion.
It is frequently said that the essence of the training in guru yoga is to cultivate the art of seeing everything the guru does as perfect. Personally I myself do not like this to be taken too far. Often we see written in the scriptures, »Every action seen as perfect.« However, this phrase must be seen in the light of Buddha Shakyamuni’s own words: »Accept my teachings only after examining them as an analyst buys gold. Accept nothing out of mere faith in me.« The problem with the practice of seeing everything the guru does as perfect is that it very easily turns to poison for both the guru and the disciple. Therefore, whenever I teach this practice, I always advocate that the tradition of »every action seen as perfect« not be stressed. Should the guru manifest unDharmic qualities or give teachings contradicting Dharma, the instruction on seeing the spiritual master as perfect must give way to reason and Dharma wisdom.
Take myself, for example. Because many of the previous Dalai Lamas were great sages and I am said to be their reincarnation, and also because in this lifetime I give frequent religious discourses, many people place much faith in me, and in their guru yoga practice they visualize me as being a Buddha - I am also regarded by these people as their secular leader. Therefore, this teaching of »every action seen as perfect« can easily become poison for me in my relationship with my people and in my effective administration. I could think to myself, »They all see me as a buddha, and therefore will accept anything I tell them.« Too much faith and imputed purity of perception can quite easily turn things rotten. I always recommend that the teaching on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should not be stressed in the lives of ordinary practitioners. It would be an unfortunate affair if the Buddhadharma, which is established by profound reasoning, were to have to take second place to it.
Perhaps you will think: »The Dalai Lama has not read the Lam Rim scriptures. He does not know that there is no practice of Dharma without the guru.« I am not being disrespectful of the Lam Rim teachings. A student of the spiritual path should rely upon a teacher and should meditate on that teacher’s kindness and good qualities; but the teaching on seeing his or her actions as perfect can only be applied within the context of the Dharma as a whole and the rational approach to knowledge that it advocates. As the teachings on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect is borrowed from Highest Tantra and appears in the Lam Rim mainly to prepare the trainee for tantric practice, beginners must treat it with caution. As for spiritual teachers, if they misrepresent this precept of guru yoga in order to take advantage of naive disciples, their actions are like pouring the liquid fires of hell directly into their stomachs.
The disciple must always keep reason and knowledge of Dharma as principal guidelines. Without this approach it is difficult to digest one’s Dharma experiences. Make a thorough examination before accepting someone as a guru, and even then follow that teacher within the conventions of reason as presented by Buddha. The teachings on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should largely be left for the practice of Highest Tantra, wherein they take on a new meaning. One of the principal yogas in the tantric vehicle is to see the world as a mandala of great bliss and to see oneself and all others as Buddhas. Under these circumstances it becomes absurd to think that you and everyone else are Buddhas, but your guru is not!
Actually, the more respect one is given the more humble one should become, but sometimes this principle becomes reversed. A spiritual teacher must guard himself or herself carefully and should remember the words of Lama Drom Tonpa, »Use respect shown to you as a cause for humility.« This is the teacher’s responsibility. The student has the responsibility of using wisdom in his or her demonstration of faith and respect.
A problem is that we usually only observe those teachings that feed our delusions and ignore those that would overcome them. This leniency can easily lead to one’s downfall. This is why I say that the teaching on seeing all the guru’s actions as perfect can be a poison. Many sectarian problems in Tibet were born and nourished by it.
The First Dalai Lama wrote, »The true spiritual master looks upon all living beings with thoughts of love and shows respect to teachers of all traditions alike. Such a one only harms delusion, the enemy within.« The different traditions have arisen principally as branches of skillful methods for trainees of varying capacities. If we take an aspect of their teachings, such as the precept of »all actions seen as perfect,« and use it for sectarian purposes, how have we repaid the past masters for their kindness in giving and transmitting Dharma? Have we not disgraced them? If we misunderstand and mispractice their teachings, it will hardly please them. Similarly, it is meritorious for a lama to perform rituals or give initiations to benefit people, but if his or her motivation is only material benefit, that person would be better off going into business instead. Using the mask of Dharma to exploit people is a great harm.
We erect elaborate altars and make extensive pilgrimages, but better than these is to remember Buddha’s teachings: »Never create any negative action; always create goodness; aim all practices at cultivating the mind.« When our practice increases delusion, negativity and disturbed states of mind, we know that something is wrong.
It is sometimes said that a major cause of the decline of Buddhism in India eight hundred years ago was the practice of Vajrayana by unqualified people, and sectarianism caused by corruption within the Sangha. Anyone teaching Tibetan Buddhism should keep this in mind when they refer to the precept, »every action of the guru is to be seen as perfect.« This is an extremely dangerous teaching, particularly for beginners.
Personally I do not think that the HHDL advice is against the Guru Devotion practice of Varjayana but rather we can logically request for clarification from our Gurus when we are in doubt.
It is about "how to question your Guru'' not challenge your Guru. When are Guru's instructions seem out of norm, it is not the instructions but rather our own resistance to either get out of our comfort zone or simply unwilling to move a level higher in spiritual form.
Many lay Buddhist students have not lived in environments that is conducive to realizations to the Dharma and it is the willingness to trust our Guru that will create merits for us to practise well and gain merits and attainments.