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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: michaela on April 08, 2012, 01:36:19 AM
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Dear Forum Readers
There are plenty of discussion in this forum that stated that we should not mix one tradition with the others because it will create confusion in the mind of practitioners. Personnally, I found this view of not mixing tradition has some of its weaknesses because each practitioner has his or her disposition and there are so many topics to understand, the way a particular topic being presented (can be in other tradition) may appeal more one or more practitioners and causing them to develop more understanding.
I understand that some traditions may have customs that do not agree with other traditions such as maintaining segregations between men and women in the temple, not allowing women to be ordained. However, these so customs are man made and does not represents Buddha's teachings. Just because one does not agree with a particular customs of another traditions it does not mean that the ways some of the teachings are presented will create confusion of the practitioners of other traditions.
in Illusory Play - Autobiography of Trijang Rinpoche, he stated that in one of his travels, he went to Rigang and Chagra Gang, places where Kagyu tradition prevailed - to give initiations and transmissions to the Sangha and Public.
Isn't this a good examples that the so called "mixing tradition" is not necessarily bad?
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Dear Forum Readers
There are plenty of discussion in this forum that stated that we should not mix one tradition with the others because it will create confusion in the mind of practitioners. Personnally, I found this view of not mixing tradition has some of its weaknesses because each practitioner has his or her disposition and there are so many topics to understand, the way a particular topic being presented (can be in other tradition) may appeal more one or more practitioners and causing them to develop more understanding.
I understand that some traditions may have customs that do not agree with other traditions such as maintaining segregations between men and women in the temple, not allowing women to be ordained. However, these so customs are man made and does not represents Buddha's teachings. Just because one does not agree with a particular customs of another traditions it does not mean that the ways some of the teachings are presented will create confusion of the practitioners of other traditions.
in Illusory Play - Autobiography of Trijang Rinpoche, he stated that in one of his travels, he went to Rigang and Chagra Gang, places where Kagyu tradition prevailed - to give initiations and transmissions to the Sangha and Public.
Isn't this a good examples that the so called "mixing tradition" is not necessarily bad?
It doesn't mean that Trijang Rinpoche was practicing Kagyu teachings to the detriment of his Gelug practice, Venerable Trijang Rinpoche has already had several lifetimes of being a practicing Kagyu he was even the Karmapa in one incarnation.
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I am not saying Trijang Rinpoche is practicing Kagyu lineage. My comments are more toward the people he conferred the initiation to
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I am not saying Trijang Rinpoche is practicing Kagyu lineage. My comments are more toward the people he conferred the initiation to
In another life, Kyabje Rinpoche was actually affiliated with the Kagyupas. If u see Rinpoche's biographical tangkha, you would see that in one life he wears the black hat of the Karma Kagyus. This play of skilfull means shows us how compassionate the Buddhas are to sentient beings in leading them onto the path of enlightenment.
I do agree to a certain extent that there's a mix of lineages here but if you were to base a judgement on just one life time, i think it wouldn't be so easy for us to understand what is going on. Rather, if we were to study Rinpoche's biography over a few life times, it would make some sense that Rinpoche is connecting with some of his students when he was a Kagyu lama in a previous life and reconnecting them with the teachings.
We must understand, at one point of the string of our incarnations, we might have been a Kagyu, Sakya, Nyingma or Kadam student, it is through our fervent prayers that we're now connected with our Lama from Jamgon Tsongkhapa's lineage. We need to make this grow because we have made causes for it.
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My opinion is that as beginner practitioners, we should follow one traditions diligently and throughly, as there are already a handful to learn and digest in one tradition.
No doubt that traditions are created to suit the needs for different time, mindset, culture, people and place. We should understand that all roads lead to Rome eventully so different traditions just mean different methods to achieve the same goal. When we have this understanding, then there would be not be any bad inclination in mixing traditions, infact, we will respect others' traditions more becasue buddhas and lamas all act out of compassion, don't they?
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Unless our guru permits, we shouldn’t go learn practices of another Vajrayana tradition on our own. If we are Gelug from the outset, then we should go all the way and practise Gelug and not mix with practices from Kagyu, Sakya, Nyingma or any other Vajrayana tradition available. All traditions have their unique methods of accomplishments. If we mix them all up, just imagine what kind of soup are we cooking up? The soup that we produce may end up inedible or even poisonous and harmful to our health!
Tantras are teachings that require specific oral transmission from qualified gurus who hold the lineage of that practice. We need definitive instructions from the guru before we can practise them correctly. We cannot simply mix Tantras up and expect to get results on our own!
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I agree that the disposition of the each practitioner will be different but that doesn't mean that the practitioner has to mix practices from different traditions or lineages unless one has the permission of the Guru.
Within each tradition there are enough practices to suit each practitioner. The traditions by itself are perfect. That is why we have to rely on the Guru. We need to create the causes and to be near the Guru for him to give the practice that suit us most to achieve the best possible results; and most likely the practices prescribed will be in stages. One has to achieve the result of one stage before the Guru prescribe the next practice. If we keep our Guru Samaya clean we will be nurtured this way from life to life until we achieve enlightenment.
Mixing tradition is dangerous and akin to self medicating when we have a disease. We are not the expert so don't try it no matter how attractive it might seem. Instead, create the cause to be near the Guru and he will prescribe the correct practice no doubt.
That is our first practice! GURU DEVOTION!
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Of course we can mix all traditions... once we are attained. ;D
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Dear Forum Readers
There are plenty of discussion in this forum that stated that we should not mix one tradition with the others because it will create confusion in the mind of practitioners. Personnally, I found this view of not mixing tradition has some of its weaknesses because each practitioner has his or her disposition and there are so many topics to understand, the way a particular topic being presented (can be in other tradition) may appeal more one or more practitioners and causing them to develop more understanding.
I understand that some traditions may have customs that do not agree with other traditions such as maintaining segregations between men and women in the temple, not allowing women to be ordained. However, these so customs are man made and does not represents Buddha's teachings. Just because one does not agree with a particular customs of another traditions it does not mean that the ways some of the teachings are presented will create confusion of the practitioners of other traditions.
in Illusory Play - Autobiography of Trijang Rinpoche, he stated that in one of his travels, he went to Rigang and Chagra Gang, places where Kagyu tradition prevailed - to give initiations and transmissions to the Sangha and Public.
Isn't this a good examples that the so called "mixing tradition" is not necessarily bad?
There are positive ways of mixing and melding traditions, but this can only be done by very highly skilled masters who know their way around these texts and not be caught up in dialectics or are lazy. How many times have we heard of laypeople around us who interpret the Dharma incorrectly or take the literal meaning of something when it is to be taken figuratively?
There are movements that consolidate the other traditions and interpret them in a way where it becomes interchangeable and prevent misunderstandings. One of them is actually Gelugpa who combined the 3 lineages, and another such movement is Rime, and until now Rime monks freely study the texts of other lineages and excel in it. Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche for example studied the Sakya texts from Gorampa and salvaged it from Tibet to preserve them.
I know someone who mixes traditions, he thinks that a single line of the Buddha's teaching is enough for someone to practice for a whole lifetime. He is applying a Zen koan's approach to all of the Buddha's teachings. It is illogical because it would mean that the Buddha wasted all his time in giving the sermons and he should have just gave us a one-liner to practice our entire lives.
That example is exactly why laypeople are not encouraged to mix traditions because they do not know what to mix and what is to be taken figuratively or literally. Echoing the other posters, there is absolutely nothing wrong with mixing the traditions if you know what you are doing, but not if you dont.
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I cannot even master one tradition, why would I even try to learn about others? I think people who try to learn about all traditions are misguided because they become a jack of all trades and master of none. What is the point of learning a little bit about each when you can spend your energies and time to learn one tradition in more depth. Those who dabble in many traditions are either so arrogant as to think they can handle more than one tradition or are simply being ignorant of the pitfalls, or both.
Are you at the level of HH Trijang Rinpoche or Lama Tsongkhapa? If not, I suggest you stick to one tradition, whatever that tradition may be. Gelug may suit you or it may not. If Kagyu suits, then follow the Kagyu tradition closely and well. All the schools of Buddhism teach what Shakyamuni Buddha taught anyway. It’s just that the focus and methods may differ. So whatever our little selective minds are attracted to, we should just go for it!
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I believe that all traditions are good and perfect. However, unless we are highly attained it would be better to stick to one tradition, study and learn up that tradition well. Most of us can't even master one tradition well and having a mixed tradition will create more confusion which may even create the cause for us to give up. Therefore, it is better to stick to one tradition we find comfortable with and rely on a Guru to guide us step by step until we achieve enlightenment.
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I think it should be clarified in this case what do you exactly mean by mixing tradition? most people in this thread state their opinion, agree or not agree without exactly clarifying their definition of mixing tradition. I think it creates a lot of confusion.
Are you talking about taking refuge with several different teachers from several traditions, or you are reading books or joining teachings by masters from other traditions?
(1) If you are talking about taking refuge from several teachers from various traditions or taking initiations from them, yes permission from the existing teachers would be appropriate.
(2) But if you are talking about attending talks or reading books from masters from other traditions, no I cannot agree. There are several ways of explaining the same thing. For example, although I am a Gelug practitioner and have a high reverence for my Lama - who naturally is a Gelug practitioner. I still read books and attend talks by masters from other tradition. Example, I attended talk by Ajahn Brahm who is a Theravadan, and when he explained about how custom which is man made can be changed and why we should respect and appreciate other religious belief, his explanation sticks in my mind. Another good example is when Master Cheng Yen explained why we should not take hurtful talk seriously, her explanation sticks in my mind because she was using examples that is relevant to my situation. Her humble beginning when doing charity work also relates to me. So is Mother Teresa.
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(2) But if you are talking about attending talks or reading books from masters from other traditions, no I cannot agree. There are several ways of explaining the same thing. For example, although I am a Gelug practitioner and have a high reverence for my Lama - who naturally is a Gelug practitioner. I still read books and attend talks by masters from other tradition. Example, I attended talk by Ajahn Brahm who is a Theravadan, and when he explained about how custom which is man made can be changed and why we should respect and appreciate other religious belief, his explanation sticks in my mind. Another good example is when Master Cheng Yen explained why we should not take hurtful talk seriously, her explanation sticks in my mind because she was using examples that is relevant to my situation. Her humble beginning when doing charity work also relates to me. So is Mother Teresa.
Most people would have read books from HHDL, other spiritual masters, etc. I myself has also attended a talk by Ajahn Brahm once. At some point in life, we will seek for something to improve our lives and hope someone is able to tell us how. So we look and we look. Finally, we come across an esteemed master. We check him out and we take refuge. We take refuge because this teacher made an impact in our lives which no other teacher can or did.
Therefore, we should go all way with one teacher for he has sworn to protect you in all lifetimes. I am not talking about mixing tradition here. This is more to do with sticking with one teacher. However, it does relate because if we stick to one teacher, we will stick to one tradition.
We should stick to one teacher by going to his talks, reading his books and listening to his advice. Why do we need another father if we already have one? Unless you are saying your current teacher not good enough? For me personally, my teacher is highly qualified. With his vast knowledge of information, it is difficult to absorb everything, I cannot imagine having so many other to teachers to learn from! Choosing a teacher is by choice. Once checked and chosen, we should commit to one teacher all the way. It's similar to being married! YES! Do we go around flirting with someone else while our spouse is still alive? Of course not. Going for another teaching when one has already taken refuge shows that you do not think that your teacher is good enough. This is what it reflects.
In terms of mixing tradition, it works the same as our minds are not stable and easily confused. It may cause us to doubt the teachings. Lama Tsongkapa has extract all the best from each from the Sakya, Nyima and Kagyu traditions. This is mixing tradition in a way isn't it? However, Tsongkhapa is qualified to mix it and condense the teachings to us which suits our current time best. Personally, I think I am fortunate to stumble upon the Gelug tradition. I wouldn't want to explore further.
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If I cannot get a degree in Chemistry, I would not go for Physics. Both are science.
Whether Gelug, Kargyu, Sakya, Nyingma.....they are all Vajrayana.
I have read of many realized lamas who send their students who have had achievements in their whatever lineage's practice to other renown lamas for further spiritual growth. For example, Je Rinpoche.
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I think it should be clarified in this case what do you exactly mean by mixing tradition? most people in this thread state their opinion, agree or not agree without exactly clarifying their definition of mixing tradition. I think it creates a lot of confusion.
Are you talking about taking refuge with several different teachers from several traditions, or you are reading books or joining teachings by masters from other traditions?
(1) If you are talking about taking refuge from several teachers from various traditions or taking initiations from them, yes permission from the existing teachers would be appropriate.
(2) But if you are talking about attending talks or reading books from masters from other traditions, no I cannot agree. There are several ways of explaining the same thing. For example, although I am a Gelug practitioner and have a high reverence for my Lama - who naturally is a Gelug practitioner. I still read books and attend talks by masters from other tradition. Example, I attended talk by Ajahn Brahm who is a Theravadan, and when he explained about how custom which is man made can be changed and why we should respect and appreciate other religious belief, his explanation sticks in my mind. Another good example is when Master Cheng Yen explained why we should not take hurtful talk seriously, her explanation sticks in my mind because she was using examples that is relevant to my situation. Her humble beginning when doing charity work also relates to me. So is Mother Teresa.
I dont think it is a problem to attend talks from other traditions as long as your mind is stable and grounded in your own tradition. As long as your heart wont gravitate towards another tradition when you attend their teachings just because you find that their Lamas are more entertaining or powerful, or because you think that they are better than your lineage, then it is fine.
Another interesting thing to remember or to note is that, if we say that we are Gelug practitioners but instead of studying our own tradition but we run around to different traditions, it implies that our own tradition cannot provide us with all that we need and that it is not perfect which is why we need to run off to another tradition. This sends a negative message to everyone around us about our own tradition.
But due to incorrect attitudes being spread and to appease the thinking of certain narrow minded people we could make appearances in other teachings as long as we remain grounded in our own tradition, just to appease the crowd and not them think that we are close minded as there are a lot of people out there now who think that participating in many different traditions is considered something eclectic and nonsectarian to do and if you keep to your own you're too attached or closed up...
If you listen but not apply the teachings of other traditions, or use their views to apply to your own traditions' teachings, then there is no problems with that. However if the instruction to not mix around with other traditions comes from the Lama, it would be best to follow the Lama's advice instead, because perhaps he knows that it will not be good for us in the long term.
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I do not agree if it is stated that attending talks by other masters other than your teacher is called flirting with other traditions or not being satisfied by one's lama. And attending talks of other masters for the purpose of not wanting to be called secterian is also not a good argument.
It is stated in the scriptures that when attending a Dharma talk, your mind need to be an appropriate vessel to accept the teachings (e.g., not being like a vessel that is turned upside down or not being a vessel that is leaking) so the teachings can stay in your mind. So coming to a Dharma session just for the sake so other people will not think that I am a secterian, definitely is not the right motivation. And definitely, if I happen to benefit from the teaching of lama from other tradition, it does not mean that I want change tradition or respect my Lama less, or because the other lama is more funny or powerful. This should be only be interpreted as "I learned something today. I see the value from this learning, and I will apply it." That's all.
Attending talk by masters from other traditions is not flirting with other traditions at all. Even in the monasteries including Gelug monasteries such as Gaden, monks from other traditions are not forbidden to attend a teaching session. It is just said that the leader of one tradition does not have any authority to decide for the other traditions. That is called respect.
If you happen to come across a teaching that sticks in your mind and make you understand better, and as a result you don't have to bother your lama to give further explanations and to ask him to explain again and again just because the students cannot think creatively to get him/herself to understand or the students just too lazy to search elsewhere and find other means to understand the topic at hand. I think there is no harm in that as long as it does not contradict your lama's teaching. And there is no way that it should be interpreted as wanting to defect to another tradition. That thinking is narrow-minded in itself.
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In discussing this topic, I think it depends on who we are discussing about and not so much the subject matter itself.
If we look at the various traditions in Tibetan Buddhism, each tradition doesn't exist as exclusive isolated lineage on its own as there are shared lines of transmission. Also, all of them shared the same monastic traditions and vows from the Mulasarvastivada line.
All the schools follow a path that combines sutra and tantra, complimented with rituals and meditation. The monastic sutra topics studied are the same, for example, prajnaparamita, the middle way, correct view of voidness, pramana, and abhidharma. Some may say the texts are not the same, but even in the monasteries in the same tradition, or different colleges in the same monastery use different texts.
The different traditions practice many similar yidams, such as Chenrezig, Tara, Manjushri, Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini. Meditation and retreats are similar, starting with preliminary practices, although there may be slight differences in structure and manner.
The lineages of teachings also mix and crossover. For example, Marpa’s transmission of The Guhyasamaja Tantra went to both Kagyus and Gelugs, and Mahamudra that is considered Kagyu are also transmitted in Sakya and Gelug schools.
Having said that, we have to reflect that what it boils down to is personal practice, hence unlike great masters, Tulkus, Geshes/Khenpos who need to transmits many teachings, initiations and practices, we should focus on one tradition as this helps to keep the component parts of the practice, the vocabulary, and the manner of expression consistent. Not many can be like Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who can crossover the traditions, as it means that you have to master the different traditions, and yet never mixed them - when composing or teaching Gelug texts, it has to be Gelug style with its own set of concepts, vocabulary and based on the main practices and system of the tradition.
After all, our ultimate aim is to gain attainments and benefit many, I don’t think trying to climb different mountains all at the same time will bring us anywhere, and definitely we do not have time to climb so many mountains ;D.
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I do not agree if it is stated that attending talks by other masters other than your teacher is called flirting with other traditions or not being satisfied by one's lama. And attending talks of other masters for the purpose of not wanting to be called secterian is also not a good argument.
It is stated in the scriptures that when attending a Dharma talk, your mind need to be an appropriate vessel to accept the teachings (e.g., not being like a vessel that is turned upside down or not being a vessel that is leaking) so the teachings can stay in your mind. So coming to a Dharma session just for the sake so other people will not think that I am a secterian, definitely is not the right motivation. And definitely, if I happen to benefit from the teaching of lama from other tradition, it does not mean that I want change tradition or respect my Lama less, or because the other lama is more funny or powerful. This should be only be interpreted as "I learned something today. I see the value from this learning, and I will apply it." That's all.
Attending talk by masters from other traditions is not flirting with other traditions at all. Even in the monasteries including Gelug monasteries such as Gaden, monks from other traditions are not forbidden to attend a teaching session. It is just said that the leader of one tradition does not have any authority to decide for the other traditions. That is called respect.
If you happen to come across a teaching that sticks in your mind and make you understand better, and as a result you don't have to bother your lama to give further explanations and to ask him to explain again and again just because the students cannot think creatively to get him/herself to understand or the students just too lazy to search elsewhere and find other means to understand the topic at hand. I think there is no harm in that as long as it does not contradict your lama's teaching. And there is no way that it should be interpreted as wanting to defect to another tradition. That thinking is narrow-minded in itself.
Actually, that part came from Pabongkha Rinpoche himself. In Liberation of the palm of your hand, he mentioned specifically about a Gelug Geshe who studied the Nyigma teachings, and the direct result of that was that the people in that area started saying that Gelug teachings are only good for knowledge and are not really practical. So from this incident, we can know that mixing traditions is a no-no.
However, it is also a well known fact that Tibetans are known to be very narrow minded as well, but does it not also send the message to others that you are not very stable in your own practice or that your own tradition is inadequate to other people? We have to think and be aware of what kind of message are we sending to other people at the same time.
There are many newbies out there who may not be as learned or stable as you, but they just follow what you do and in the end they get confused or lose interest in Buddhism because they cannot reconcile the different approaches to Dharma. Some of them may not be able to see the similarities but only the differences in the many traditions and start having wrong views...
But fundamentally, it depends on your Guru's instructions. If he says to not go to other centers, it is only for your own benefit and mental stability, or due to other reasons. It wouldnt be a good idea to skirt around that instruction as most Gelug lamas tend to have this approach to their students and for a very good reason: to prevent their own students from getting confused when they delve into the other teachings, especially if they are not stable enough.