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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: beggar on October 10, 2012, 06:07:02 AM

Title: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: beggar on October 10, 2012, 06:07:02 AM
.... Or is it?....

A new article up on the website that's sure to shake the Tibetan community to its core. Indeed, where IS Tibet's freedom? Here's the link to the article, or read it right below. It's important to watch the video first before you read on. The kind folks here have even clipped out essential parts of the videos for easy viewing.

Do take note of the inconsistencies of the Tibetan government, especially this question: why pray and rely on beings that aren't enlightened, but reject a Protector who is an emanation of the enlightened Buddha Manjushri? Not logical???

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/)


TIBET'S FREEDOM IS NEAR


First, watch the video:
Where is Tibet's freedom? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjiWeCbQtBE#ws)


Indeed, where IS Tibet’s freedom? It’s been 53 years since the Dalai Lama fled Tibet, along with hundreds of monks, nuns and laypeople to try to find a new life in the neighbouring countries of India, Nepal and Bhutan. There has been no progress in the fight for freedom throughout the 53 years and it does not look like the Tibetans are any closer to getting freedom or autonomy.

This video report by France 24, created in 2009 brings another perspective. It reveals the prophecies given by an Indian Hindu ‘goddess’ and a Buddhist oracle about the future of the Tibetan people. The first is called Sambhavi, the reincarnation of a Hindu goddess in the form of a little girl, who states that the Tibetans will return in 2012. The second, the state oracle of Tibet, named Nechung, reveals that the Dalai Lama will go to China, teach there and everyone will be happy. (By stating that he will go to China, this indicates that Tibet is free and the Dalai Lama is allowed to return to what is currently Chinese soil).

(1) It has been 3 years since the video was made and the Tibetans are no closer to getting their country back or returning to their homeland. Why is this happening? Why isn’t the Dalai Lama any closer to returning to Tibet? Are all the prophecies wrong?

If the prophecies really are wrong and not coming true, then we are forced to ask the question: Why does the Dalai Lama and his government, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) continue to rely on such inaccurate oracles and Hindu ‘goddesses’ for guidance and counsel?

(2) It is very important to note that these two beings featured in the news report are NOT enlightened beings. In a Buddhist sense, it is safe only to rely completely on fully enlightened beings – i.e. Buddhas – for the most accurate prophecies and guidance as they have full omniscience, wisdom and compassion. Any lesser beings who are not enlightened have only limited wisdom and clairvoyance and therefore are often unable to give the most accurate advice. Nechung is commonly known for not being an enlightened being but a spirit who was tamed and subdued; Sambhavi, the Hindu ’goddess’, is also not enlightened (we do not mean any disrespect in saying this, but it is the truth).

There are huge contradictions in the way the Dalai Lama and his government conduct such matters. They will seek the guidance of unenlightened deity oracles, but at the same time ban the practice of enlightened deities such as the Buddha Dorje Shugden. They encourage and openly publicize Sambhavi and Nechung, but persecute, attack and discriminate against Dorje Shugden devotees, claiming that Dorje Shugden is not a correct practice. If relying on Dorje Shugden, a fully enlightened Buddha, is not correct, then what is? And why is it more acceptable and correct to rely on unenlightened beings? This goes against the most basic principles and teachings of Buddhism.

(3) This also begs the question: why are the Tibetans placing so much emphasis and focus on the advice of oracles instead of assuming a level of responsibility and being answerable to their own failures? A few years ago, it was declared that the practice of the deity Dorje Shugden would harm the cause for the freedom of Tibet; that if people prayed to him, it would jeopardize their chances of returning to their homeland. Instead of assuming responsibility, they blamed their failure on a deity. History repeats itself now, as they pin all their hopes of freedom on the forecast of other deities. Why do they lay the entire future of their own people in religion, instead of doing something tangible on a secular level to improve the life of Tibetans right now?

Moreover, the devoted Tibetans have ardently listened to the advice of the Dalai Lama and have abandoned the practice of Dorje Shugden for well over a decade… So where is Tibet’s freedom? They still seem no closer to obtaining freedom in any way. So is the failure to achieve freedom really Dorje Shugden’s fault?

(4) As you will see in the third video, members of the Tibetan authority are very evasive when asked what they think about the Nechung oracle’s prophecies. They clearly do not wish to comment on the subject and those who do, speak quite reluctantly. This shows that even those in higher positions of secular authority are not eager to say that they agree with the oracles. Nor are they allowed to openly disagree with the oracles and what they say. While some are afraid to take responsibility for the actions of the secular government, others are simply not allowed to. To disagree with the Nechung oracle and his advice would be likened to a sort of betrayal against the Dalai Lama and the state.

If we are to speak about freedom, it is obvious that even within the Tibetan exiled community, there is no freedom among themselves. The Tibetans are not given any room to truly speak up, to speak against these old religious traditions or to lobby for more progressive secular governing methods and initiatives.  Spiritual authority is not allowed to be questioned.

(5) On a spiritual level, it also does not make sense for the Dalai Lama to be consulting unenlightened deity oracles like this. Buddhists believe him to be the emanation of the Buddha of Compassion, Chenrezig. As a fully enlightened being with full clairvoyance, why would he need to consult the advice and guidance of lesser beings, at a lower level of attainment?

Furthermore, among the most basic commitments of any religious practitioner who has embraced the Buddhist path is not to rely or pray to unenlightened beings. Both Sambhavi and Nechung are very clearly unenlightened beings. (Please see here for further information about the true nature of Nechung: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/spirits-in-dharamsala/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/spirits-in-dharamsala/)). For the Dalai Lama and his people to rely on them in this way sends an incorrect message to all Buddhists as it obviously and directly contravenes the most basic promises we take as we enter the path.

(6) It is also widely known throughout history that Nechung, the state oracle, has made countless mistakes in his prophecies and advice. This has been clearly documented and some mistakes have been extremely serious, contributing to the loss of their country. Why then do the CTA, their Prime Minister Lobsang Sangay and the Dalai Lama continue to seek and heed the advice of this deity? At the same time, they reject the advice and practice of a highly accurate and enlightened Buddha like Dorje Shugden. This is not logical, nor fair to the devotees of Dorje Shugden, who are constantly berated, belittled and attacked for their belief and practice.

The greater irony in all of this is that it was Nechung who had ‘advised’ the Dalai Lama and his government to stop praying to Dorje Shugden. It was Nechung who stated that the practice of Dorje Shugden would hurt the cause for Tibet’s independence and cause the Dalai Lama’s life to shorten. It seems almost farcical that an unenlightened being would be denigrating and giving advice against an enlightened being, and that the Dalai Lama would choose to follow this advice instead.

Also, if he is so commonly known to have made many mistakes in his prophecies and advice, isn’t it therefore also possible that his advice about Dorje Shugden is also wrong? In other words, it is very likely that Tibet’s independence does not hinge in any way on Dorje Shugden; nor is it Dorje Shugden’s fault in any way if Tibet does not obtain its freedom.

In this day and age, the sole reliance on the gods for the future of a secular society is not feasible; nor will it be taken seriously by the rest of the modern world. In particular, the further contradictions, inconsistencies and inaccuracies of these oracles make it even more difficult for a secular community to accept what they are saying. To depend so heavily on the advice of gods instead of assuming responsibility for their own people seems a highly unreliable and unstable way of governing a country. Furthermore, to use the gods against each other – where some are so strongly relied upon and others are grossly banned and disparaged – turns the leaders into even more of a farce.

At the end of the day, after cutting through all the politics, prophecies and contradictions, the few burning questions still remain: Where is Tibet’s freedom or autonomy? And why haven’t any of the prophecies (see the videos above) come true? Why is a modern government and leadership still laying the entire future of their people and ‘country’ on the unstable words of unenlightened gods? Is this method really working?
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: Big Uncle on October 11, 2012, 06:58:23 PM

(1) It has been 3 years since the video was made and the Tibetans are no closer to getting their country back or returning to their homeland. Why is this happening? Why isn’t the Dalai Lama any closer to returning to Tibet? Are all the prophecies wrong?

Why does Nechung keep giving false prophecies and the consistency in which they are false seem to be becoming the norm? Why does CTA and the Dalai Lama still consult this protector and allow people false hope. However, there is  a prophecy that Nechung will eventually become enlightened and vacate his office as the main Dharma Protector and that a new successor is awaiting his turn just outside of the Southern Gate. With that in mind, don't you think that Nechung is deliberately planning his grand exit by appearing to be ineffective.
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: diamond girl on October 14, 2012, 11:08:58 AM

(1) It has been 3 years since the video was made and the Tibetans are no closer to getting their country back or returning to their homeland. Why is this happening? Why isn’t the Dalai Lama any closer to returning to Tibet? Are all the prophecies wrong?

Why does Nechung keep giving false prophecies and the consistency in which they are false seem to be becoming the norm? Why does CTA and the Dalai Lama still consult this protector and allow people false hope. However, there is  a prophecy that Nechung will eventually become enlightened and vacate his office as the main Dharma Protector and that a new successor is awaiting his turn just outside of the Southern Gate. With that in mind, don't you think that Nechung is deliberately planning his grand exit by appearing to be ineffective.

Big Uncle,
You have raised a very good question. I was just thinking the same thing. From the best of my knowledge, Nechung was the State's oracle, therefore I would think to consult him is "correct". However, even when Nechung was State oracle, the consultation of Dorje Shugden oracle was also practised. Therefore, they both existed together. 

If Protectors can co-exist, why is it that it is like they are in competition? Is this conflict a man-made situation? Are we supposed to think deeper? Could this be made so that faith in Dorje Shugden continues to grow? Compassion in a much deeper level perhaps....
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: tsangpakarpo on October 14, 2012, 11:51:27 AM
Its scary to know how Nechung has been giving wrong prophecies for so many years now. When Nechung was consulted in Tibet on whether or not Dalai Lama should flee the country, Nechung said the Dalai Lama should stay. It was Dorje Shugden who told the Dalai Lama to leave. And true enough, the very next day His Holiness left his residence, the chinese army invaded the Potala Palace. So Nechung was wrong to in his prophecy.

Now it is happening again. And I wonder how many more wrong prophecies have been given by Nechung over these years. Don't you guys think its scary? all the things the Dalai Lama has been doing all these years, were they all WRONG because of Nechung?

If Nechung is right, then where's the FREEDOM?

Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: dsnowlion on October 14, 2012, 06:00:44 PM
So worshiping and relying on a spirit is wrong. So why rely on Nechung??? Isn't He a spirit?

How many predictions have been given by Nechung that has came out untrue? One of it was that His Holiness will return to China - Tibet so where and when is this happening. Oh the other was that His Holiness will definitely have a his life sorten if people still continued with Dorje Shugden... well many huge monasteries have been mushrooming out... and we do not see His Holiness health falter in any huge sense.

In so many aspects there is NO LOGIC to this BAN.

One thing's for sure despite the Ban, Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world are growing tremendously more and stronger... no sign of slowing down here :)
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: lotus1 on October 14, 2012, 06:22:43 PM
The more I look at it; this whole ban is just illogical. To me, whether Tibet is free or not, it is not the real issue. Do we see the life of Tibetans in Tibet worsening with China Govenment? I only see the life of the Tibetans who practice Dorje Shugden are threaten, discriminated and harm by Tibetans (CTA) just because of the different view in religion practices. So, my point is, whether Tibet is free or not is not the actual issue. If we want to see peace and harmony in Tibetan community, CTA should not discriminate their own nations just for the different view in religion!   

The ban should be lifted, then, Tibet will have true “freedom” –– peace and harmony!
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: Barzin on October 14, 2012, 07:50:17 PM
I think there is more freedom when people are allowed to do what they want as long as it is not harmful.  I don't understand why the Tibetans are creating more obstacles for themselves.  What is the point keep fighting to earn their country back when the welfare of the people are not taken care of?  This also goes hand in hand when a silly ban on a practice is even a major national issue.  It must be all the negative karma that created by the people that stops from getting the country back.  Has Nechung look into it?
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: jessicajameson on October 14, 2012, 08:14:28 PM
@Beggar This article provided a very good and thought-provoking read.

It is hard to digest that His Holiness the Dalai Lama would support prophecies coming from a spirit, a god and not an attained being.

Even if we were to come from the perspective that Dorje Shugden is not an enlightened being - why support prophecies of Shambhavi (wife of Shiva, and the mother of all Lord Shiva's devotees) and Nechung (a subdued spirit)?

It is a fact that Nechung is a spirit. It is a fact that Shabhavi is a god. Neither are enlightened beings and neither are enlightened protectors.

Is there no one else to rely on? What about Mahakala, Setrap and Palden Lhamo?

Looking at this situation from the perspective of a Tibetan Buddhist follower of HHDL - I do not see anything wrong that they blindly believe in Nechung's or Shambhavi's prophecies. When you've lost your country and a little "divine" girl (who is supported by HHDL) tells you that you'll be able to return to your stolen land in a few years - I may just give her offerings, cry like a mad woman and thank her. To the typical Tibetan Buddhist follower, who gives two cents whether she's telling the truth? After all, false hope sells. Look at the Christian faith, "Accept God and you are saved from your sins".

But, why is His Holiness the Dalai Lama supporting her?

Regardless of the (unnecessary) smack that Shugdenpas throw at HHDL, I don't view HHDL as another ordinary human being. He is the emanation of Chenrezig, if not a highly attained being. 

So, again, why did HHDL support this little girl so strongly? Why does HHDL consult Nechung instead of say, Palden Lhamo?

These contradictory actions can't possibly be coincidental. Even if we do not believe that the Dalai Lama is one of any attainments, having teachers such as Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche who believed that the Dalai Lama is the real McCoy, and imparted their vast knowledge onto Him, that in itself should be sufficient for us to believe that the Dalai Lama is who he is: the emanation of Chenrezig. If not, we then doubt some of the greatest masters of our time.

I believe that the Dalai Lama's seemingly contradictory actions is something that we all should examine, and not for us to just mindlessly spew hate towards the Dalai Lama himself. Otherwise, we are no better than the typical Tibetan Buddhist.

My examination leads me to believe that perhaps when the day comes that His Holiness the Dalai Lama does pass away, all these accumulated confusion kindly created by the Dalai Lama will leave people in a limbo - who do they now rely on?

Dorje Shugden is already in many, many people's mindstreams - both Eastern and Western - thanks to the ban, thanks to the Dalai Lama.

After the Dalai Lama enters clear light, the ban will die down (I mean, it already is), and the prophecy of the 16th Karmapa will take effect, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him".

Hey, everything is possible. For me, my money is on the 16th Karmapa's prophecy, and not the little Indian girl.
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: beggar on October 15, 2012, 11:06:25 AM
The question of freedom is an unusual conundrum within the Tibetan exiled community. I don't know if they realise it but "freedom" shouldn't just be about them getting their country back and being "free" from the Chinese. It should also be about freedom within their community, which there hasn't been. I don't know if they realize the great irony that while they're fighting for some grand cause of "freedom", the tibetan leaders are oppressing their very own people, so that they can't even be free among themselves.

We have had the expression that Shugden practitioners are "twice exiled" - first from their homeland of Tibet, and secondly from within their exiled Tibetan community within India / Nepal (Shugden practitioners are excluded from all mainstream secular affairs and religions affairs; denied government welfare, education, healthcare and job opportunities; and even brutally attacked just because of their religious choices).  Let's not talk in such big terms of securing autonomy and freedom for the Tibetan people / Tibetan state. Let's talk first about how there is a desperate lack of equal opportunities among Tibetans living in India alone. Let's talk about how important it is to establish a true sense of human rights and freedom of religion among one very small community that have already gone through so much as a displaced group of people.  How does one fight for freedom of an entire nation, when the nation itself (if you can even call it a nation), is imploding within itself? How does anyone on a global stage take the exiled Tibetans and their leadership seriously when they can't even grant their own people the basic human rights enjoyed by any modern nation. By such behavior, a more serious issue like their appeal for autonomy seems almost comical, not at all to be taken seriously.

I wonder - does Lobsang Sangay and his people even realise how much they are all cutting off their noses to spite their own faces?
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: vajrastorm on October 19, 2012, 06:45:30 AM
So an unenlightened Hindu goddess and an unenlightened Protector predicted three years ago, that this year (year 2012)Tibet would get its freedom , Tibetans would return home and the HH Dalai Lama would be teaching in China. None of this has come to pass. So what's going to happen next. Will the Dalai Lama consult the State oracle (Nechung ) again as to what's gone wrong with the prophecy?

Yes, we must put our heads together and try to cipher what 'message' the Dalai Lama is sending through his persistent consultation of an unenlightened Protector who has been consistently giving him wrong advice and wrong prophecies. First Nechung advises HH Dalai Lama that the practice of Dorje Shugden, an enlightened Protector, would hurt Tibet's struggle for freedom and shorten His life. So the Dalai Lama chooses to listen to the advice of an unenlightened protector and puts a ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden, an Enlightened Protector, whom he had practiced with great devotion as shown in his written prayer and praise to Shugden,' Melody of the Unceasing Vajra'.

Then Nechung gives him all kinds of wrong advice about Tibet before its fall to China and this has contributed vastly to the loss of Tibet to the Chinese. But ,surprisingly, after Nechung advises HH Dalai Lama not to leave Tibet in 1959, the Dalai Lama then chooses to listen to Dorje Shugden who advises Him to leave immediately and escorts Him to safety in India. However, later, CTA or the Dalai Lama gives out the story that it was Nechung who had asked Him to leave immediately!

And now this wrong prophecy of three years ago by Nechung. Amidst this string of confusing wrong prophecies and advice and the Dalai Lama's persistent faith in Nechung, can His Holiness be sending a message that we shouldn't be relying on Him(and indirectly, Nechung) now? That it' more logical now to rely on an Enlightened Protector whose time is NOW? After all, as Nechung gets ready to vacate his post in the South Gate, isn't he waiting for Dorje Shugden to fill that post? There is a bigger picture after all. Over and above all this, we must remember that His Holiness is the most compassionate Chenrezig. 



 
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: Zach on October 19, 2012, 10:46:05 AM
China will never let Tibet out of their grasp, The only way an Independent Tibet would arise would be if China where to somehow become politically unstable and their central government crumble, Even then Tibet would need a large conventional army to guard against a future Chinese threat. Maybe in the next 400 years things will change but the way things are now I don't see Tibet gaining any sort of Independence soon the only way the Dalai lama and the exile community could return to Tibet would be if HH ceased being a separatist in the eyes of the Chinese and I very much doubt that this impression will leave the Chinese while this Dalai lama is still living.

But there will definitely be a 15th Dalai lama of Tibet just as there is a 11th Panchen Lama now.
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: christine V on October 19, 2012, 03:51:22 PM
Tibet's freedom is near, i would like to question on freedom in what's sense? Tibet is going to be a country by itself? Looking at current situation, is almost impossible that the Chinese Government will ever let go of this "fat sheep" . Recently, in youtube there was a documentary about Tibet, in the documentary you can see how much "hardwork" that the China's Government have put in to get Tibet.
Tibet - Cry of the Snow Lion - Tibet - Cry of the Snow Lion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHARbG626K4#)

The state Oracle, Nechung - was the one who requested Dorje Shugden to protect the Nagarjuna views. If Nechung have requested this, it is not possible for him to go against Dorje Shugden. But, why did Nechung do this, advise not to practice on Dorje Shugden ? And, giving false advise again and again, whereby the advises some are very obvious and fatal? It doesn't make sense.   Maybe Nechung is preparing to give way to Dorje Shugden. Well , let's see the progress.

Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: WisdomBeing on October 19, 2012, 07:01:30 PM
Personally I find it a little odd that if Nechung is going to gain enlightenment, surely he would not be making so many mistakes. How can a being who is about to gain enlightenment exhibit so much incompetence. Perhaps it is a method which is beyond me but I just do not find it logical. If Nechung is about to become enlightened, I would have thought that he would show signs of tremendous accuracy in his predictions and complete infallibility. While I of course believe that Dorje Shugden will be the Protector of Tibet and replace Nechung, what I cannot see right now is how.

Anyway, back to the topic of freedom of Tibet, I do not think freedom is in geography. Countries have been swallowed up and borders and boundaries have changed over time. Look at Prussia!

Quote
For centuries, the House of Hohenzollern ruled Prussia, successfully expanding its size by way of an unusually well-organized and effective army. Prussia shaped the history of Germany, with its capital in Berlin after 1451. By 1871, the smaller German city states were merged with Prussia, resulting in the creation of the German Empire. In November 1918 the royalty abdicated and the nobility lost most of its political power. Prussia was effectively abolished in 1932, and officially abolished in 1947. – from [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia[/url])


If that can happen to such a powerful country like Prussia, what more Tibet. Prussia has become Germany, and I believe Tibet has become China. The sooner we accept it and see how we can work within these parameters, the easier it will be assimilate into something that is not only inevitable but already is.
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: vajratruth on October 19, 2012, 08:33:03 PM

(1) It has been 3 years since the video was made and the Tibetans are no closer to getting their country back or returning to their homeland. Why is this happening? Why isn’t the Dalai Lama any closer to returning to Tibet? Are all the prophecies wrong?

Why does Nechung keep giving false prophecies and the consistency in which they are false seem to be becoming the norm? Why does CTA and the Dalai Lama still consult this protector and allow people false hope. However, there is  a prophecy that Nechung will eventually become enlightened and vacate his office as the main Dharma Protector and that a new successor is awaiting his turn just outside of the Southern Gate. With that in mind, don't you think that Nechung is deliberately planning his grand exit by appearing to be ineffective.

It was Nechung who committed Duldzin Drakpa to the promise to rise as the Uncommon Protector of Tsongkhapa's teachings and then reminded Tulku Drakpa of the same promise. Such was Nechung's strength of purpose and yet later on Nechung began to advise against the practice of Dorje Shugden. Nechung's inconsistency is far too blatant for a being that is about to be enlightened to make and therefore the question is why? And as if to drive home the point that Nechung should not be relied upon anymore, Nechung  began to give inaccurate prophecies and  even advice which are clearly wrong. 

The actions of His Holiness The Dalai Lama follow the same pattern as Nechung or should I say, Nechung's actions mirror that of the Dalai Lama's.  And given the closeness between Nechung and HHDL, the only logical conclusion for 2 highly attained beings to be making such similar "mistakes" is that they are in collusion for a bigger purpose.

For some time now, I could not figure out why HHDL being such a deft statesman as He is, who has been so competent at sweeping the world off its feet, could not find a way to win over China. China after all has also more to gain in finding peaceful compromise with the CTA than continue being seen as the aggressive bully who destroyed Shangri-la. Therefore, surely China would welcome overtures by the Dalai Lama but His Holiness has not made any serious and realistic ones. Again, the question is why?

Perhaps the return of Tibet to Tibetan rule has never been His Holiness's main objective.  If the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara, then surely the question of who governs a country cannot be as important as how effectively the Dharma spreads and for Dharma to spread in an age when its practice is degenerating the Dalai Lama had to engineer a dynamic growth.

Here, an old proverb comes into play that is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and so the Dalai Lama "created" two enemies - China and Dorje Shugden. Combining the two could achieve a dynamic growth of the Dharma. And so the Dalai Lama keeps winding up China and at the same time, openly present the practice of Dorje Shugden as a potent means by which China could be rid of a thorn on its side.

The Dalai Lama's "failure" to find a solution to the Tibet crisis and His Holiness's ban of Dorje Shugden is all the time a two-prong strategy to in fact spread the Protector practice, with Nechung as an important ally. Nothing else makes much sense.
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: harrynephew on October 22, 2012, 03:40:11 AM

(1) It has been 3 years since the video was made and the Tibetans are no closer to getting their country back or returning to their homeland. Why is this happening? Why isn’t the Dalai Lama any closer to returning to Tibet? Are all the prophecies wrong?

Why does Nechung keep giving false prophecies and the consistency in which they are false seem to be becoming the norm? Why does CTA and the Dalai Lama still consult this protector and allow people false hope. However, there is  a prophecy that Nechung will eventually become enlightened and vacate his office as the main Dharma Protector and that a new successor is awaiting his turn just outside of the Southern Gate. With that in mind, don't you think that Nechung is deliberately planning his grand exit by appearing to be ineffective.

this is not the first time Nechung has been doing so really. During the time of the great 13th Dalai Lama, at the most crucial time, the 13th Dalai Lama was down with a bad fever and sickness on which he summoned Nechung through the oracle and the doctor to his private room. It was noted that Nechung gave the 13th Dalai Lama the wrong medicine which caused the Dalai Lama to absorb his winds and leave his body.

One too many mention on the mistakes and wrong prophecies of Nechung but he is not publicly demoted or noted to be an evil spirit? I mean, a spirit who gave the wrong medicine to a holy leader of Tibet when times were not good for the nation? Of course such news were swept under the carpet by the Tibetan Govt. But what makes more sense than never is the ill treatment of something good and the good treatment of something which consistently screws up.

Is the Tibetan govt or CTA upholding their religion correctly or using supernatural forces to explain what they have been unable to deliver?

Tibet is further from independance as time and people are not on their side. CTA please give your own people religious freedom to practice their sacred protector before asking for spiritual and secular freedom from the Chinese, lead by example please
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: Ensapa on December 07, 2012, 08:22:13 AM
It's 2012 now and it's already near the end of 2012, but nothing has changed, except for China replacing its president. China did not shift their policies or anything towards Tibet at all even with the change. Tibet is still not free. And nobody even talks about such predictions anymore. Perhaps they were made to cheer up the crowd, but there is little credibility in them at all. I wouldnt listen to Nechung anymore if I were the Dalai Lama.
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: beggar on December 08, 2012, 10:32:45 AM
Well it looks like this article has been stirring things up among the media too. Well done to the team for sending this out. Three major newspapers in India have since covered the story (not fantastic that they have hinted at Dorje Shugden practitioners being violent, but at least there is coverage and it could incite readers to think about how effective the Tibetan leadership really is in attaining independence for their people.

Here, have a read:

THE TRIBUNE
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121207/himachal.htm#13 (http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121207/himachal.htm#13)
Dorje Shugden followers write against CTA
Lalit Mohan

Dharamsala, December 6
Followers of Dorje Shugden, a controversial Tibetan sect opposed to the Dalai Lama, have written a letter to the Kangra police challenging methods and beliefs of the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA).

The police received a letter and a CD from the followers of Dorje Shugden on Tuesday.

The letter is anonymous and the CD contains a video footage of a programme broadcasted in a French channel in 2009.

In the letter it has been stated that members of the CTA are taking guidance from spirits like “Nechung Oracle”.

“Nechung Oracle” had predicted that the Dalai Lama and Tibetan exiles would go back to Tibet in 2012. However, nothing of this sort had happened as yet, the letter stated.

The letter has stated that the CTA should not follow the prophecies of spirits and instead should only worship the embodiment of the Buddha as the Dalai Lama.

The letter also criticises the CTA for not allowing the worship of Dorje Shugden, who they consider as an embodiment of the Buddha.

The CD sent to the police also contains a video footage that supports the message given in the letter.

SP, Kangra, Diljeet Thakur said: “We are looking into the source of the letter. It seems that the author of the letter has tried to challenge the ways and means of the CTA. The development has been reported to a contingent of the Himachal Police providing security to the Dalai Lama and they have asked to take necessary steps in this regard.”

Dorje Shugden is considered to be a wrathful spirit of a deceased Lama now working as “the worldly protector”. Shugden is believed to be a spirit of murdered Gelukpa Lama, who had opposed the 5th Dalai Lama both in debate and politics. He was found dead under mysterious circumstances.

There are about one million Dorje Shugden followers worldwide. The trouble between the followers of this sect and the present Dalai Lama began in 1975 when the yellow book was published.

In this book a message was given to Ge-Luk Lamas that they should not practice teaching of other schools or otherwise they would incur Shugden’s wrath and die prematurely.

After the publication of this book that was perceived as a direct challenge to the authority of the Dalai Lama, he banned the Shugden practices.

Reports said in the recent past the Chinese government had started promoting followers of Dorje Shugden to counter the influence of the Dalai Lama.

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HINDUSTAN TIMES

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Punjab/Chandigarh/Breakaway-Tibetan-Buddhists-threaten-the-Dalai-Lama/SP-Article1-968931.aspx (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Punjab/Chandigarh/Breakaway-Tibetan-Buddhists-threaten-the-Dalai-Lama/SP-Article1-968931.aspx)

Breakaway Tibetan Buddhists threaten the Dalai Lama
Naresh K Thakur
Dharamsala, December 05, 2012

After remaining dormant for five years, the dissident group in the Tibetan community in exile has once again started its covert activities in Dharamsala town. Dharamsala police received a parcel from followers of Dorje Shugden containing anti- Dalai Lama literature and a video CD.

Assistant Superintendent of Police (ASP) of Kangra G Siva Kumar, while confirming the news, said the some unknown person had been the parcel from Singapore.

"The parcel contains a pamphlet and a video CD," said Kumar, adding that there was nothing threatening in the contents.

"In the pamphlet and CD, questions have been raised over the efforts being made by the Dalai Lama and Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) for the freedom of Tibet and have alleged that proper path was not followed to achieve autonomy and independence," said Kumar. The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government in exile have also been accused of discriminating against Shugden devotees, added Kumar.

He said the CD contained a news clipping aired by a French channel in 2009. Meanwhile, SP Kangra, Diljeet Thakur said that security at the Dalai Lama's residence had been cautioned.

Shugden devotees are among the most violent fundamentalist groups among the exiles. One of their groups, Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society (DSDCRS) has its headquarters in Delhi. In Feb1997, three Tibetan Buddhist monks, including the Dalai Lama's close associate, Lobsang Gyatso, who was opposed to Shugden-worship, were brutally murdered in Dharamsala. It was widely held that the perpetrators were monks loyal to Shugden.

The Indian police had identified and charged DSDCRS members of the triple murder and Interpol had issued a red corner notice against two accused in June 2007.

In 2008, an organisation named Western Shugden Society (WSS) had begun a campaign directed at the Dalai Lama. Picketing the venues where he was to appear around the world, they claimed that he was banning them from practicing their own lineage of Buddhism.

May this year, when the Dalai Lama apprehended a "poison plot" by the Chinese intelligence agencies, the Tibetan government in exile had felt threatened from fundamentalist groups backed by Chinese authorities. The CTA had asserted that efforts of the spiritual leader to reform and democratise the Tibetan society had emboldened certain fundamentalists within the community.
 
Shugden Dorje
Dorje Shugden is a controversial deity within Tibetan Buddhism. He is primarily associated with two influential lamas of the Gelugpa school of Tibet: Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama is the current head of the Gelugpa sect. Dorje Shugden is viewed by some as a protector and by others, including the Dalai Lama, as an 'evil and malevolent force'. In 1996, the Dalai Lama disassociated himself from the worshippers of Dorje Shugden and had appealed to the Tibetan community not to worship Shugden.

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The Times of India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/Anonymous-parcel-questions-Dalais-role/articleshow/17500727.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/Anonymous-parcel-questions-Dalais-role/articleshow/17500727.cms)

Anonymous Parcel Questions Dalai’s Role
S Gopal Puri

DHARAMSHALA: In charge of local police station has received an anonymous parcel from Singapore which questions the role of Dalai Lama and the deities in Tibetan freedom struggle. While the police officers are not clear on how to deal with the parcel contents, which also contained a video DVD, a security officer of the Tibetan administration said that it was a bid to mar reputation of Dalai Lama and disrupt affairs of the Shugden community.

"We received the parcel on Tuesday evening. It contains a DVD and a letter and the text at the bottom reads - DorjeShugden.net. We are probing the matter," said superintendent of police Diljeet Singh Thakur. The letter reads: "We write to you because this concerns the freedom of Tibet. Please watch the DVD video." The DVD contains a TV news report of June 2009 and talks about prophecies of Dalai Lama and Tibetan future.

The letter questions role of Tibetan state oracle "Nechung" stating that everybody knows that "Nechung has made many mistakes before".

Dorjee Shugden's controversy

The entire Tibetan community has been divided over the Dorje Shugden controversy. This is a segment of the Tibetan community which follows Dorje Shugden allegedly a dharma protector of the Sakya Gelug tradition. Sources said that believers of Dorje Shugden have been severed from voting rights and have even lost all connections to Dalai Lama and the Central Tibetan Administration.

Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: vajratruth on December 08, 2012, 05:57:43 PM

In this day and age, the sole reliance on the gods for the future of a secular society is not feasible; nor will it be taken seriously by the rest of the modern world. In particular, the further contradictions, inconsistencies and inaccuracies of these oracles make it even more difficult for a secular community to accept what they are saying. To depend so heavily on the advice of gods instead of assuming responsibility for their own people seems a highly unreliable and unstable way of governing a country. Furthermore, to use the gods against each other – where some are so strongly relied upon and others are grossly banned and disparaged – turns the leaders into even more of a farce.

At the end of the day, after cutting through all the politics, prophecies and contradictions, the few burning questions still remain: Where is Tibet’s freedom or autonomy? And why haven’t any of the prophecies (see the videos above) come true? Why is a modern government and leadership still laying the entire future of their people and ‘country’ on the unstable words of unenlightened gods? Is this method really working?

Very valid points made by Beggar.  It is already more than half a century since Tibet lost its freedom and the question is what has the Dalai Lama and the CTA (previously TGIE) accomplished in their so called efforts to procure an independent or even an autonomous Tibet.

In the same period of time, China has undergone what is now coming into its sixth generation of leaders, the United States has voted ten Presidents into office and even the Soviet Union is no more and Russia is into its 5th President. The world has progressed and moved on and yet the government of the Tibetans in exile is still stuck in its narrow and antiquated mindlessness.

To me, the Dalai Lama refers to oracles and prophecies of Tibet’s freedom as a means of keeping Tibetan-in-exile hopes alive and as long as there is hope that freedom may be achieved under the leadership of the Dalai Lama, his failures and that of the CTA will be not brought into light and questioned by his own people.  As early as the 1970’s the Dalai Lama had pointed to a number of Nechung’s prophecies that Tibet will soon regain its freedom, to inspire the Tibetans.

And when that did not happen, the blame was placed squarely on Dorje Shugden and a crusade against Dorje Shugden was packaged sold to the Tibetan public as a fight to regain Tibet’s independence. And in that way, the Dalai Lama and CTA turned a political quest into a religious war and dumped the onus of regaining the freedom of their nation onto the shoulders of innocent practitioners of a belief that is centuries old. Perhaps blinded by their veneration of the Dalai Lama, the ordinary Tibetan didn’t stop to think what interest would a deity have in geopolitics?

No one disputes the clairvoyant power of oracles or the supernatural potency of the Buddha’s blessings but as we all know, divine support works best when there is also sensible and positive steps taken out of pure motivation on a secular level to create the causes for success. And it on these level that the Dalai Lama and the CTA has failed miserably.

The people of Tibet themselves are fragmented. There are those living in Tibet under Chinese government who are contented; there are those in Tibet who want greater autonomy; there are Tibetans living in exile outside Tibet who long to return to the motherland and then there are those who have taken up citizenship in foreign lands and now treat Tibet’s freedom as only a romantic ideal. The Dalai Lama and the CTA have done nothing to reconcile all Tibetans under a single achievable purpose, a step that should be accomplished before any hopes of reconciling with China can be explored. Instead the Dalai Lama’s decision to ban a centuries-old practice threw an already fragmented people into chaos and in the process exported religion-based hatred overseas to replace the image of Shangri-La that Tibet enjoyed for so long.

If the Dalai Lama and CTA insist on relying on oracles and the power of the Buddhas, then there is one measure that they have not taken. That is to rely on the advice of an enlightened Protector who has been proven to be correct time and time again, and that is the Oracle of Dorje Shugden.
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: Ensapa on December 09, 2012, 05:33:59 AM
over 50 years in exile and they still have issues trying to build a name for themselves, or rather, build a real government that really takes care of the people. Many nations have a government that actually serves the people. What does CTA do? make sure that everyone is not a Dorje Shugden practitioner? Why is it that nobody has ever asked that in what way and how does Dorje Shugden stop their independence? It seems to me that the Tibetans really think that they will be granted independence by some divine god rather than them working towards it.
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: dsiluvu on December 13, 2012, 07:45:19 AM
It is almost Christmas... we are in the last month of year 2012... and what we are witnessing is more and more people burning themselves in vain. NO SIGN OF TIBET FREEDOM anywhere NEAR. No SIGN of even PEACE talks between the two. Their age group of self-immolators are getting younger, the youngest so far, 16 years old girl. Their call for help is of a political one, not a self-less act because it is not universally appealing at this moment and definitely not for Buddhism to remain and spread.

They wish the whole world to help them, but they do not help themselves? By helping themselves... I am talking about their own disharmony caused and created by themselves when they started the Ban on Dorje Shugden, creating so much separation and disunity, schism, and i am sure negative karma. They get lesser following and lesser support, shooting themselves in foot again.

I am beginning to have this impression that the Tibetans or rather their self-proclaimed govt, CTA, are a bunch of arrogant ignorant people. Their strategy is failing, causing them to have more friction with China, more death in their own people, more blames flying about, and it's basically heading no where. Yet they refuse to change their strategy and approach... must be due to "face". If they humble down, calm their people down and advice their people appropriately, to stop the self-immolation for a start...

Oh sorry, is it too far fetch for CTA cos this would mean they would lose face... so I'm guessing they won't. So continue burning yourself Tibet until there is no more Tibetans if that is what you intend to do... because no one can help if your own exile Govt refuses to help by changing their ways that does not work and has failed.

If CTA does not make a drastic change by end of this month... I think we need to prepared to see fireworks of flamed bodies this coming New Year and it won't be a joyous celebration for Tibet.

Definitely the Nechung prediction is false... and CTA should stop hiding behind a worldly God's skirt and take responsibility for believing it to be in the first place. I thought you were Buddhist?
Title: Re: Tibet's Freedom is Near
Post by: Ensapa on December 13, 2012, 10:38:09 AM
It is almost Christmas... we are in the last month of year 2012... and what we are witnessing is more and more people burning themselves in vain. NO SIGN OF TIBET FREEDOM anywhere NEAR. No SIGN of even PEACE talks between the two. Their age group of self-immolators are getting younger, the youngest so far, 16 years old girl. Their call for help is of a political one, not a self-less act because it is not universally appealing at this moment and definitely not for Buddhism to remain and spread.

They wish the whole world to help them, but they do not help themselves? By helping themselves... I am talking about their own disharmony caused and created by themselves when they started the Ban on Dorje Shugden, creating so much separation and disunity, schism, and i am sure negative karma. They get lesser following and lesser support, shooting themselves in foot again.

I am beginning to have this impression that the Tibetans or rather their self-proclaimed govt, CTA, are a bunch of arrogant ignorant people. Their strategy is failing, causing them to have more friction with China, more death in their own people, more blames flying about, and it's basically heading no where. Yet they refuse to change their strategy and approach... must be due to "face". If they humble down, calm their people down and advice their people appropriately, to stop the self-immolation for a start...


That's because they are not doing anything to regain independence, but rather doing things that are against it. If they want independence so much, shouldnt they be working towards that instead of blaming Dorje Shugden? Although blaming is for sure the easiest way out, but it will not result in anything at the end of the day. The Tibetans are still not free and they are still creating the causes for themselves to be trapped in their current situation -- by simply not doing anything about it or worse, provoking and angering China, or even worse: destroying the basis of Gelug practice by mistreating Dorje Shugden practitioners.