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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: icy on September 08, 2014, 12:18:40 AM
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The 14th Dalai Lama said he would be the last of the Dalai Lamas but I think China will not let this rest. China will pick the 15th Dalai Lama to control the stability of Tibet and the 15th Dalai Lama will practise the protector practice of Dorje Shugden by which time the practice will flourish strongly in Tibet and China proliferate by all great Shugden lamas.
(http://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/1887/fdf328feed014ca5b7e11a3b43959ed2.jpg)
His Holiness the Dalai Lama, during a news conference after the final session of the World Summit of Nobel Peace Laureates in Chicago. (Charles Rex Arbogast, AP)
2014-09-07 21:20
Berlin - The Dalai Lama has told a German newspaper that he should be the last Tibetan spiritual leader, ending a centuries-old religious tradition from his Himalayan homeland.
His comments to the Welt am Sonntag newspaper echo his previous statement that "the institution of the Dalai Lama has served its purpose", but were even more explicit.
"We had a Dalai Lama for almost five centuries. The 14th Dalai Lama now is very popular. Let us then finish with a popular Dalai Lama," he said.
"If a weak Dalai Lama comes along, then it will just disgrace the Dalai Lama," he added with a laugh, according to a transcript of the English language interview.
He also said: "Tibetan Buddhism is not dependent on one individual. We have a very good organisational structure with highly trained monks and scholars."
China has governed Tibet since 1951, a year after invading, and the Dalai Lama fled across the Himalayas to India after a failed 1959 uprising against Chinese rule.
The Nobel Peace Prize winner in 2011 retired from political duties and has upgraded the role of prime minister of the Tibetan exile community.
But he is still the most powerful rallying point for Tibetans, both in exile and in their homeland, and remains the universally recognised face of the movement.
Asked by the German newspaper how much longer he may carry on his advocacy duties, the 79-year-old said: "The doctors say I could become 100 years old. But in my dreams I will die at the age of 113 years.
"I hope and pray that I may return to this world as long as sentient beings' suffering remains. I mean not in the same body, but with the same spirit and the same soul."
On the question of whether he may ever be able to return to Tibet, he said: "Yes, I am sure of that. China can no longer isolate itself, it must follow the global trend towards a democratic society."
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We never know for sure what China is planning for in the near short future but China has chosen the Panchen Lama many years ago. China is one of the most populated country in the world. One could wonder if Chinese promotes the idea of the next Dalai Lama in China what would the Chinese people do? Will they start believing in the Dalai Lama?
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Let's hope that China is smart enough not to pick another Dalai Lama; we don't need anymore one guy in charge of everything dudes for religion, we don't need it for anything else either--- I don't want to listen to the theocracy going on in the next lives.
It would be really smart if he went unrecognized; that would be IMMENSELY helpful to all living beings. Also, I hope he has a long time to live so he can do lots of Vajrasattva or they are going to have to find him in the lower realms...
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That is interesting. It takes a special one to know when his job is done.
The First Dalai Lama:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/1st_Dalai_Lama.jpg
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I'm not sure if China will "choose" another Dalai Lama once the 14th Dalai Lama passes away, or even if they do... I doubt they'll do so quickly. The reason being that they already have chosen a Panchen Lama. Once the Dalai Lama passes away, I believe that they will bring the Panchen Lama to the forefront in an attempt to bring stability to the region and promote the current political situation as best.
If the recognized line of Dalai Lamas ends with the 14th Dalai Lama it will be a great shame as their religious works have been instrumental within the Gelugpa tradition. However I believe that Chenresig as the Buddha of Compassion would appear in human form again and again to benefit beings through the practice of the Dharma. Perhaps if indeed the line of Dalai Lama's end, then maybe there will be another line of incarnate masters that comes to the forefront of Tibetan Buddhism...
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Ah let us not forget that China chose a Karmapa in addition to a Panchen lama, I guess to keep their control of the Tibetan people open.
So, I think what would be most awesome for everyone involved, is if China would like, get out of the recognition process and instead make a rule that nobody involved as a head of a religous school or organization can be a political leader, because otherwise it will be like, Chinese authority over some semi-feudal puppet dictator over the the Tibetan people and you know, nobody wants all that authority in any life.
The Dalai Lama can't pick religion and boss us all around; China can't pick religion and boss us all around, and also, since I am an American, I would just like to say that I really don't appreciate the U.S. government trying to use the Dalai Lama as an icon of perfection and democracy because we all know what an oppressive uh....word monks can hear... dictator he has been, and would be. Like the American government would not say anything the Catholic Pope (who really is a Pope, unlike the DL) is just fine. So if the Pope said, oh, I'm the only guy in charge of all of Christainity, would the American government believe that? Nope, because almost every U.S. President has been a Protestant. So, I really wish they'd stop trying to use his "perfect faultless" image in their brainwashing against communism; I don't think communism is really a threat to the U.S. anymore, so maybe they could stop doing it. It would be greatly appreciated, as I feel they are trampling on my Constitutional rights when they act like the Dalai Lama is so perfect or something. I hope to all that is holy we have no successor to him, and we keep religion and politics separate--- whatever exact form of government Tibet ends up with--- I mean we just really don't need those to mix, it never, ever, helps anybody.
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CTA disputes the report on Dalai Lama's last incarnation. CTA says whether the Dalai Lama reincarnates will depend on Tibetan people and this has always been the Dalai Lama's stance.
VOA News
September 09, 2014 4:36 PM
Tibetans are disputing a report in a German newspaper in which the Tibetan spiritual leader is quoted as hinting that he may be the last Dalai Lama.
An official at Ganden Phodrang, the official institution of His Holiness the Dalai Lama based in Dharamsala, India, told VOA Tibetan the quote in Welt am Sonntag is incomplete and only part of a much longer and fuller response to a question about reincarnation.
The paper quoted the Dalai Lama as saying, “We had a Dalai Lama for almost five centuries. The 14th Dalai Lama now is very popular. Let us then finish with a popular Dalai Lama."
But the official in Dharamsala says the Tibetan spiritual leader went on to say the ultimate decision on whether the institution of the Dalai Lama should continue or cease to exist will be up to the Tibetan people.
They say that position is not a new one and in fact has been stated many times by the Dalai Lama over several decades.
The Dalai Lama and his predecessors have historically been critical political figures in addition to their position as spiritual leaders. The current Dalai Lama says he has ceased his role as the political leader of the Tibetan people.
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From this report of China, I strongly believe China is waiting for the right time to pick the 15th Dalai Lama.
China tells Dalai Lama again to respect reincarnation
Source: Reuters - Wed, 10 Sep 2014 09:17 GMT
BEIJING, Sept 10 (Reuters) - China repeated a call on the Dalai Lama on Wednesday to respect what it said was the historic practice of reincarnation, after the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader implied in a newspaper interview he may be the last to hold the position.
The Dalai Lama, in an interview with German newspaper Welt am Sonntag, said the tradition of the post could end with him, adding the Tibetan Buddhism was not dependent on a single person.
The Dalai Lama, 79, has stated previously that he will not be reborn in China if Tibet is not free and that no one, including China, has the right to choose his successor "for political ends". China has previously warned the Dalai Lama he has no right to abandon the tradition of reincarnation.
China, which regards the Dalai Lama as a dangerous separatist, has ruled Tibet with an iron fist since Communist troops marched in 1950. The Dalai Lama fled into exile in India in 1959 after an abortive uprising against Chinese rule.
Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying told a daily news briefing that when it came to the reincarnation of living Buddhas, including the Dalai Lama, China had a "set religious procedure and historic custom".
"China follows a policy of freedom of religion and belief, and this naturally includes having to respect and protect the ways of passing on Tibetan Buddhism," Hua said.
"The title of Dalai Lama is conferred by the central government, which has hundreds of years of history. The (present) 14th Dalai Lama has ulterior motives, and is seeking to distort and negate history, which is damaging to the normal order of Tibetan Buddhism."
In 1995, after the Dalai Lama named a boy in Tibet as the reincarnation of the previous Panchen Lama, the second highest figure in Tibetan Buddhism, China put that boy under house arrest and installed another in his place.
Many Tibetans spurn the Chinese-appointed Panchen Lama as a fake.
Traditionally, high lamas, Buddhist priests, can take years to identify a child deemed to be a reincarnation of the Dalai Lama, a search usually limited to Tibet.
Tibetans fear that China will use the issue of the Dalai Lama's religious succession to split Tibetan Buddhism, with one new Dalai Lama named by exiles and one by China after his death.
China says its rule has brought much needed development to poor and backward Tibet. Exiles and rights groups accuse China of failing to respect Tibet's unique religion and culture and of suppressing its people. (Reporting by Ben Blanchard; Editing by Nick Macfie)
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China can give the Dalai Lama a run for his money on doublespeak and lies. You know, it seems like a result similar to the cause that China would try to pretend that they can force the 'recogintion process to be respected," when in reality, they have totally destroyed the recognition process by picking their political people to be in charge. (Pretend Panchen Lama, Pretend Karmapa)
So, from the actions of the Dalai Lama against the authentic Karmapa and against Dorje Shugden, I see that the Dalai Lama's choices are not to be trusted.
Imagine that the 15th Dalai Lama is chosen by some messed up Chinese way, like they did with the China/DL Karmapa--- some kid that is raised in the communist school, that China can control. Then, he picks whomever China wants for all the successors, since the 14th Dalai Lama has dangerously tried to pretend that he is in control of all of Buddhism.
Upshot--- maybe the Dalai Lama IS a Buddha you guys, seriously, teaching completely in a wrathful or undercover backwards way--- no kidding--- DO NOT LISTEN TO THE DALAI LAMA RECOGNITIONs ANYMORE, including the 14th on... nothing they say with their mouth can be trusted. THEY WILL NOT MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS EVER AGAIN. The current one shows us that he isn't making the right decisions now, which helps wean people off him.... I mean, he doesn't like DOrje Shugden??? He says Trijang Rinpoche and Phabongkha Rinpoches are bad....??? He picked this communist raised boy to be the Karmapa and ignored the real one (which also eliminated his rival?)
Let's not listen to any Dalai Lamas ever again. That's what I am getting from it. Not the China picked one, not the Tibet picked one, both are political and corrupt....
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The Dalai Lama has no problems to find a new incarnation or be born in the place that is most beneficial for him to reappear. Perhaps in a way the Dalai Lama's position has outlived its usefulness, and the Dalai Lama being most compassionate can once again serve the dharma and sentient beings just not as a person called the Dalai Lama.
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The Dalai Lama has no problems to find a new incarnation or be born in the place that is most beneficial for him to reappear. Perhaps in a way the Dalai Lama's position has outlived its usefulness, and the Dalai Lama being most compassionate can once again serve the dharma and sentient beings just not as a person called the Dalai Lama.
Well I think he may have more difficulty than that, as his actions involve two Sangha Schisms, going against his root guru, and since it doesn't look like he was anywhere near enlightened to begin with. If he changes some actions, applies all four opponent powers, then you know he has MET enlightened beings before, like Trijang Rinpoche and Shamar Rinpoche, so one of them can help powa him to a pureland, but he needs to purify his karma, otherwise there is only so much they can do for him, just like for any ordinary sentient being.
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China snubs Dalai Lama, says it can appoint his successor. Dalai Lama is indeed in great demand.
Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/42341462.cms?&utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/42341462.cms?&utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst)
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All of this reminds me of how the Dalai Lama line of incarnations came about - it started when the then King of Mongolia Altan Khan, recognised Sonam Gyatso as (the 3rd) Dalai Lama.
It was rather political then and it could very well be political now. It could very well be that the Dalai Lama line of incarnations is ended by the current 14th Dalai Lama. And to me it would be a brilliant (political) move.
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You know, it's impossible to get away from all the lies in this--- the Panchen lama is not the 2nd highest figure in Buddhism; nor is the Dalai Lama the first--- the Dalai Lamas have not been enlightened since the time of the 5th obviously-- how are people going to find an unenlightened temporal leader again and again--- obviously it's difficult when a lot of their misdeeds, misascribed as "wrathful actions" would obviously land them in the lower realms.
So, just like China wants to pick the Karmapa--- then too China wants to pick the Panchen lama and also the Dalai Lama. Is the Dalai Lama surprised? I mean he tried to trick everyone into the pretend Karmapa (his rival school) but then had a problem when China picked the pretend Panchen lama from his own school; obviously China isn't respecting re-incarnation if they are going to find a Dalai Lama or have someone find a Dalai Lama--- and the Dalai Lama has said he doesn't want that. I am sure their picking a pretend Karmapa and a pretend Panchen lama are supposed to help them find a pretend Dalai Lama or something.... the basic issue is that the Chinese don't understand about Buddhism, but see it as a means to control in this instance....
like they don't believe people re-incarnate, so who cares who you pick or something?
Like I am saying this is the result similar to the cause for the Dalai Lama for interfering with the Karmapa and splitting his own school by disavowing Shugden--- both to further his own political agenda.
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I too agree that China will not let this rest. If the current 14th HH Dalai Lama do not name a successor, China will almost for sure "appoint" another HH Dalai Lama, and if this happen, then it is going to be very "ugly", where there will be a lot of disputes, disagreements, confusion, etc. I really pray we won't get into this sticky situation, because it will really degenerate Buddhism especially Tibetan Buddhism.
I pray that there will be a smooth transition, but before that, HH Dalai Lama needs to settle this Dorje Shugden issue...
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Of course China would not let this rest. China would want stability of Tibet. CTA should learn from China to unite the Tibetan and create harmony within Tibetan. CTA has been causing so much pain, hatred, disharmony and schism between the Tibatan. Dorje Shugden practitioners are not allowed to have education, medical treatment, free travelling etc. Families are being separated and due to they are not allowed to meet and be closed with any of the family member who is a Dorje Shugden practitioner.
If this is the case, what’s the point to appoint a successor for Dalai Lama? Might as well let China do it so that there will be peace and harmony within the Tibetan. 8)
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Why could Tibetans, regardless of whether they are under China or not, not keep politics and regious power separate? Like if you are a bigwig lama, then don't let you be in position of political authority--- I can imagine how terrible if one or two DLs are picked really, because it will just be the same old thing with guys in charge who use the DL (or the DL's recognition himself) running everything everybody does.
Ugh.
If they could just let people be in the government who happen to have religion in China but disallow people in religious power positions to also hold political office then that would help. I think you'd be better off being reborn in a part of mainland China where the dharma has spread than in Tibet where Tibet is controlled by China, and then also controlled by the Dalai Lama, whether picked by China picked by Tibet--- I am really not needing a Dalai Lama--- they mess up my life okay.... Tibet would be okay under China alone maybe, but without the Dalai Lama, as long as China lets people be really doing their religion, and loosens up some on the human/religious rights.... I wish they would give up Dalai Lamas or any lamas in ruling positions--- I am so sick of the dictatorial oppression of the feudal ruling lama nonsense.
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Speechless on this issues. When religion connect with politic, it will destroyed the religion.
If H.H Dalai Lama do not have a Successor, what will be happening to the Buddhist world.
The China government will sure not rest on this issues, especially related to Tibet.
To me, this ban have to leave quickly,
so that the stability of Buddhist and the lineage can be pass down in proper.
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Dalai Lama is becoming more popular than ever. CTA says the Dalai Lama reincarnation line is decided by the Tibetan people. The Chinese government says they have the right to choose the Dalai Lama. It wouldn't surprise me if US starts saying that too? Or India who jump on the bandwagon as well?
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The U.S. government has made the mistake of upping the Dalai's image in their anti-communist stuff. I don't need communism spreading, but they too are using Buddhism to further political aims. The problem is that they act like the Dalai Lama has told the truth--- that they should back any candidate for anything that the Dalai backs--- the problem is in the person of the Chinese Karmapa Urgen Thrinely--- the Dalai Lama backed this--- but it wasn't his jurisdiction anyway. The U.S. government is a bunch of morons if they listen to the Dalai anyway, because he is as honest as a tea party politician on fox news.
So if Dalai goes back to Tibet, it looks like he gave up Independence a long time ago. Then, he hates Shugden, so that's going to cause problems, and will his fake Karmapa follow to keep the peace and continue the legacy of hatred? I wish all the governments would stay out of Buddhism, okay. As far as mine goes, they should realize this, that the Dalai Lama made a pact with China over the pretend Karmapa or something, because I know they definately keep an eye on China.
But I wish they would think of another way to promote democracy rather than to make a myth out of this powerhungry dude from Tibet.
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Isn't it the tradition that any new Dalai Lama is to be recognized by the Panchen Lama? Since the Panchen Lama is in China obviously he will recognize a China appointed Dalai Lama. And the Dalai Lama will not want this and hence he is saying that the institution of the Dalai Lama will be over once he passes on.
I agree with the Dalai Lama that there is no need for a successor. China has won the political game.
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Isn't it the tradition that any new Dalai Lama is to be recognized by the Panchen Lama? Since the Panchen Lama is in China obviously he will recognize a China appointed Dalai Lama. And the Dalai Lama will not want this and hence he is saying that the institution of the Dalai Lama will be over once he passes on.
I agree with the Dalai Lama that there is no need for a successor. China has won the political game.
What the tradition is doesn't always follow in politcal intrigue unfortunately. Isn't it the tradition that the head of the Kagyus (which was in this case and is in most lives) Shamar Rinpoche recognizes the Karmapa? Well he did, but the Dalai Lama won't even recognize anything but the one China/Gelugpa picked.
So, the issue then, is that yes, China has a pretend Panchen lama, and a pretend Karmapa. If they go ahead and try to pick a Dalai via the pretend Panchen, then bascially they are going to force the Gelugpas to find someone they like better. Maybe they will stick the pretend Karmapa in power in the meantime, or maybe use him to back the words of the pretend Panchen lama.
For once, I think the Dalai Lama is right; no successor would be way better for all living beings. There is no way to escape politics right now, Chinese or Tibetan, so they need to drop the Dalai Lama recognitions.
I am not pleased with the Maoist takeover of Tibet or the surrounding areas where they are spreading, but if it's a reality, then the last thing we need is these Chinese Karmapa and Panchen lamas deciding anything; two political nightmares combining.... no thanks...
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His Holiness Dalai Lama have mentioned that he had posed this question of the continuation of his reincarnation even far back in 1969 to some individuals. HH was much worried of the reincarnation system being misused to fulfill the political agenda of 'those with vested political interests'. HH further added that when he turns ninety years of age, he would again re-evaluate if the institution of Dalai Lama should continue by consulting high lamas of the Tibetan Buddhist traditions, some other concerned individuals who are Tibetan Buddhist and the Tibetan public.
For now, I pray fervently that His Holiness would lift the ban on Shugden practice so that the Tibetans could unite and create the cause for the true incarnation of the Dalai Lama to return.
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His Holiness Dalai Lama have mentioned that he had posed this question of the continuation of his reincarnation even far back in 1969 to some individuals. HH was much worried of the reincarnation system being misused to fulfill the political agenda of 'those with vested political interests'. HH further added that when he turns ninety years of age, he would again re-evaluate if the institution of Dalai Lama should continue by consulting high lamas of the Tibetan Buddhist traditions, some other concerned individuals who are Tibetan Buddhist and the Tibetan public.
For now, I pray fervently that His Holiness would lift the ban on Shugden practice so that the Tibetans could unite and create the cause for the true incarnation of the Dalai Lama to return.
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From the surface, I do not understand the motive or Dalai Lama's reason for announcing this.
1. To warn his own people, CTA especially to get their act together?
2. To let Tibetans know that they will be on their own and their leader will abandon them?
or
3. To pave the way for the lifting of the ban of Shugden and that Dalai Lama's bigger picture from the beginning is to use this scandal to promote Shugden
For an optimistic person like myself, I would like to believe point no 3. And that whatever the Shugden Lamas are doing now it will be align with Dalai Lama's plan. With the recent trip which Trijang Rinpoche made to Mongolia and the reception Trijang Rinpoche has gotten shows the above. I mean if the world has no Dalai Lama around anymore, people in general will listen to his tutors. Right?
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His Holiness Dalai Lama have mentioned that he had posed this question of the continuation of his reincarnation even far back in 1969 to some individuals. HH was much worried of the reincarnation system being misused to fulfill the political agenda of 'those with vested political interests'. HH further added that when he turns ninety years of age, he would again re-evaluate if the institution of Dalai Lama should continue by consulting high lamas of the Tibetan Buddhist traditions, some other concerned individuals who are Tibetan Buddhist and the Tibetan public.
For now, I pray fervently that His Holiness would lift the ban on Shugden practice so that the Tibetans could unite and create the cause for the true incarnation of the Dalai Lama to return.
So, did you mean other than his own vested political agenda? Yes, China will be political, just like the Dalai Lama, so, it would be a good idea, given the mess we currently see, to give up the Dalai Lama recognitions.
Because China can't let this one pass, right? I mean, the next Dalai---he is obviously the uh theoretical (since he is lower realms bound, the way he breaks samaya) reincarnation of the current dicatator, then of course everyone would look to him to lead them around like donkeys like he has been doing this life.
So, I don't know why we are all drinking the "Dalai is a Buddha" LSD laced cool-aide but you know, you might as well say Mao or George Bush is a Buddha. Presdident Obama MIGHT be Buddha Padmasambava, but I think you know, we will still not check for his reincarnation and put him in charge of the country. The Dalai is no Buddha and can't direct his re-birth like that, but even if he could, do you think China would pick someone who is him? Or someone they can control people through? The latter is obvious even if the former eludes you.
Pretend Chinese Panchen + Pretend Chinese Karmapa + Pretend Chinese Dalai Lama = Big disaster for anyone in Tibet. Maybe what Tibetans should try is to say that on the condition that they are granted religious freedom and human rights, that they won't allow any recognized lamas to be in political power in Tibet. Then if they go democratic, autonomous, or whatever, you know, maybe Buddhism can survive in the Himalayas.