dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: iloveds on January 31, 2010, 06:30:17 AM
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This question i ask myself...
1 His Holiness teachers would have taught him DS practice.
2 HHDL imposing a ban is making DS world famous.
3 Those that do practice will be stronger in their practice
4 Places like China will practice more because of HHDL stance.
Would it be fair to say that in HHDL next incarnation he will be very close to DS again?
While there are many who suffer now, those who will benefit from the practice of DS will far outweigh those who suffer now.
Also to truly make DS practice go down in history, HHDL ultimate act of compassion would be to incarnate with the ban still in place. By being the bad guy in this sense i believe HHDL will come back again as a strong practitioner of DS.
What do others think?
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I'm assuming that no one replied because there's no answer to your question. We don't know the Dalai Lama's nature or intention and so we cannot say where's he's going to end up in the future.
My own view is that he's an ordinary politician who's using the Dharma for his own purposes. He's harmed Shugden practitioners and tried to destroy the practice, and indirectly Je Tsongkhapa's tradition as taught by his root Guru, therefore, how could he be close to Dorje Shugden in the future? You don't create the cause to be close to something by rejecting it. Even someone like Devadatta who was very learned and appeared in the aspect of a monk (like the Dalai Lama) is now in the seventh hot hell because he used the Dharma for selfish purposes and caused a schism in the Sangha (just like the Dalai Lama).
It does seem as if Dorje Shugden is becoming more famous as a result of the Dalai Lama's actions, but I think this says more about the power of Dorje Shugden. The Fifth Dalai Lama couldn't make him disappear either!
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I think even if HHDL ends up in hell, it will not be a suffering to him but more as an opportunity to manifest there and benefit those beings...isn't suffering a result of your own perception?
It could be a result of Dorje Shugden's power...or perhaps him and HHDL are working closely together so DS becomes famous. I always think that the lives of the Fifth and Fourteenth Dalai Lamas mirror one another (HHDL always says they share a close connection anyway) in that both, at one time, suppressed the practice. So who knows, maybe one day the Fourteenth Dalai Lama will have a change of heart and publically support DS again!
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Dharmadefender,
I´m sure that you have excellent intentions but by saying this type of things you are objectively harming the Dharma and demeaning the Buddhas and particularly the Buddha´s actions.
I already wrote an answer to this matter so please try to read what I said in a couple of other threads and please think about it.
Thank you.
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Interesting question.
For those who think HHDL is an imposter / politician who has his own interests at heart, if HHDL reincarnates and is recognised and enthroned again, wouldnt it be a sign that:
1) he is the real thing
2) he is not breaking his samaya with his gurus
3) the DS ban is part of a much bigger picture
Just like HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and HH Zong Rinpoche have reincarnated despite the furor over Shugden practice and how his practitioners will be reborn in hell...
What do you think?
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I don't think that anybody can judge someone's motivation but more through their consistent actions and their results.
So far HH the Dalai Lama is the only one Lama that can actually give teachings and thousands of people around the world goes for it. No other Lama can compare to that ability in spreading the Dharma for now. And if it was not for Dalai Lama most of us outside Tibet would not really have heard much about Tibetan / Vajrayana Buddhism.
So although HH the Dalai Lama may seem to be "NOT GOOD" because of "the BAN DS CAMPAIGN" NOW. We should not forget about his previous deeds, his teachings which ahve benefited many and also how in previous lives, like in the 5th Dalai Lama and the 13th were very close to Dorje Shugden's previous incarnations. They often worked hand in hand together as student and sometimes teacher.
Just read the lineage history on this site.
I do agree with Vinayaholder if HH Dalai lama is truly bad, then there should not be any reincarnation in the future. However, rest assured, Dorje Shugden practice will be well planted to billions of people. Thank to this DS BAN DRAMA.
How do we know if all this DS and Dalai Lama drama has not been orchestrated together by both?
It is even said that it was "Nechug" who appeared as a Dove to remind Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen of his previous commitment to become Dorje Shugden.
Perhaps there is a bigger picture?
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Interesting question.
For those who think HHDL is an imposter / politician who has his own interests at heart, if HHDL reincarnates and is recognised and enthroned again, wouldnt it be a sign that:
1) he is the real thing
2) he is not breaking his samaya with his gurus
3) the DS ban is part of a much bigger picture
What do you think?
Even if the Dalai Lama were to 'reincarnate' again, I'm afraid it doesn't prove anything because the tulku system, especially in these degenerate times, is notoriously unreliable. As you probably know, WSS claim that this present Dalai Lama is an imposter and was enthroned due to the deception of the Reting Rinpoche. If this were true, what would stop it from happening again next time? Someone could claim that a child was the incarnation of the 14th Dalai Lama but it could either be a mistake or deliberate deception, so even if this were to happen, it wouldn't prove anything.
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Dharmadefender,
I´m sure that you have excellent intentions but by saying this type of things you are objectively harming the Dharma and demeaning the Buddhas and particularly the Buddha´s actions.
I already wrote an answer to this matter so please try to read what I said in a couple of other threads and please think about it.
Thank you.
I say it because even Buddha Shakyamuni ended up in hell, did he not?
Sorry to bother you a friend, but can you please point me in the direction of a relevant thread? I can't seem to find it...thank you in advance :)
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Please, do not lynch me anyone, but here is my view... :P
For those who think HHDL is an imposter / politician who has his own interests at heart, if HHDL reincarnates and is recognised and enthroned again, wouldnt it be a sign that..............
..........What do you think?
It is a sign of nothing.
No matter what is the actual spiritual status of the current Dalai Lama, when he dies, the Chinese Communists will of course recognize their own rebirth-candidate, enthrone him, and indoctrinate him. The Tibetan Party will panic, and quick'a'find their own candidate, promote him, and so forth.
As to whatever has happened to the "real Dalai" is something that only Buddha knows, for no-one in the upcoming "years of promoting their own candidates" will have any interest in the truth of it all. It will be feudal faction against feudal faction once again, as it has always been, albeit now it has reached global proportions. The Panchen-issue and the Karmapa-issue will be nothing compared to what's coming. We, humans, will be left with two "next Dalais" upheld by two opposing political camps, the Chinese Party and the Tibetan Party. At that point, nobody is interested in what happened to the real thing. At that point, all that matters is that whose candidate gets the most of support in the important circles. (My bet: Chinese Dalai will get the political approval of all Western Countries, and the Tibetan Dalai will be upheld by TGIE and associated tibetofascist groups, ie. Youth Congress, et al.) There will be no place for truth. It will be stately politics from the beginning to the end. The "real thing" will in all likelihood be somewhere else, not recognized by anyone.
And now, my bet of the following 25 years: It will also be the end of Tibetan Buddhism as a unitary whole. Also the end of Tibet. The courageous traditions and lineages will withdraw into themselves, and self-declare themselves as independent of any state (as some have already done), and the wussy lineages will coalesce around the TGIE-approved baby, known also as the contestant to the title of Dalai Lama XV. The Tibetan State, in China, will be engulfed permanently into China, by the smiling approval of all the other Nations of the UN, and the TGIE-faction will, after the majority of the exiled Buddhist traditions of Tibet have "flown away" into freedom from both China and TGIE, form a "Jasser Arafat type" of terrorist army, that tries to get China out of Tibet, and also "suspicious tibetans" (read, those who bow to the "wrong" Karmapa, "wrong" protectors, etc) out of TGIE-controlled territories, ie refugee areas in India. They indeed will do so, since their "Leader" is at that time just a baby, so now the psychopaths in the organizations will be the New Lords, and believe me, they will show their strength (and non-buddhist attitudes).The free and proud traditions will walk away and find homes outside of China and India, the China-engulfed monasteries will remain loyal to China, and the TGIE with their XV-Baby Lama will become pariahs of the world. Sad future. I do hope I'm mistaken in my prognosis, but sadly, I usually ain't.
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Dear Dharmadefender, and whoever has been writing along the same lines as yourself.
There is a difference between it doesn't mean I'll ever talk bad about the Dalai Lama and propounding that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of some secret good motivation, because he is a Great Bodhisattva.
There is no Buddha that ever campaigned against his Gurus,
ever campaigned against the lineage Gurus,
ever dared say that his Gurus are WRONG, yes, with this tone, WRONG, and he, right;
ever forced people to break their samaya with their own Gurus,
ever forced a schism in the Sangha
ever persecuted people, let alone for religious reasons.
Lord Atisha didn´t do it
Lord Tsong Khapa didn´t do it
This should suffice for anyone that uses his mind with the tools of reasoning --a very special characteristic of our lineage-- to stop saying such nonsense as we´ve read from some posts in the last days. I would like those who are writing along those lines, whether they are one or many, Noobs or oldies, to think twice before demeaning the enlightened actions of our Buddhas by comparing them to the actions of the Tibetan leader.
One thing is to say I don't know which his intentions were, another, entirely different, is to speculate that he might´ve had good motivations. In Buddhism there is no good motivations for the list of actions described above, in particular there is no good motivation to mistreat your Lama, to betray him. So instead of speculating about the bad karma that those who criticize the DL might incur, think on the karmic repercusions for yourself or those who are disseminating this terrible view, that Guru Buddhas can act in such non Dharmic ways and still be called Guru Buddhas. Now, this brings the destruction of Dharma, to confuse people about such serious matter. So please for your own sake, think twice.
And, by the way, Buddha Shakyamuni didn´t end up in hell. What is this? Another nicety to confuse people or yourself? And don´t give me a Jataka tale please, because at that time he was not Buddha Shakyamuni. Please, again, think twice.
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Zhalmed Pawo,
It´s very sad the destiny of nations, it´s always been. Tibetans are just one more nation among those, unaccountable, that have developed and then vanished from the human horizon. It happened to the people who inhabited the proud Mayan empire ... they left their land and dissolved as a nation. It happened to the proud Byzantine empire ... And to so many many others. This is just the natural course of things. Sad, but natural.
The Dharma of Lord Buddha Shakyamuni is also going to vanish from this Earth, as it happened to the Dharma of Lord Buddha Kashyapa and all the unaccountable Buddhas of old.
But we have some nice millenia to try and accomplish the benefit of ourselves and others.
The great Domo Geshe Rinpoche manifested a vision that many many people were able to contemplate up above in the sky: the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas with their korlos in a magnificent procession walking towards the West. This migration from the Buddhas just started, so your description is accurate, it follows to the letter that holy vision. Except that this should not be considered sad. They are finding homes, they will find more homes. You can be sad about Tibet, but please don´t be sad about Dharma. We have some nice times left. We can work for that. By the way, I don´t think "West" is merely a cardinal direction, it´s a symbol, I think, for lands where Dharma can develop without major hindrances.
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Buddhists believe that Buddhas no longer has Karma. So if we believe that the Dalai Lama is a manifestation of Chenrizig, then he is a Buddha. As such for whatever restrictions and sufferings are inflicted on Shugdenpas, will the Dalai Lama be free of any repercussions?
Question had always been on my mind? Any resolution to my question will be my own realisations of what a Living Buddha is and whatever is manifested by them will only be for the benefit of sentient beings.
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If we believe HHDL is a buddha then we should not comment on all his activities because whatever decision he make is fir the benefits of all living being so is not very right to comment so even criticism his action. I think right now we just continue our practice I believe the ban will lift soon.
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If we believe HHDL is a buddha
Since Buddhists believe that buddhas are never harmful, believing that the evil criminal dalie is a buddha is a non-Buddhist belief.
then we should not comment on all his activities [...] so is not very right to comment so even criticism his action.
Wrong. Buddhists are supposed to bring just everything under scrutiny, even the actions of a buddha, let alone the crimes of a demented criminal such as the evil dalie.
Bottom line, you hold wrong, non-Buddhist beliefs, such as the belief that buddhas are harmful, and that Buddhists should not scrutinize everything. Therefore, your conclusions are inept and inconsequential.
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I agree with @Dondrup that HHDL is Buddha and therefore He is not subject to Karma. Whatever He is doing, it is for the benefit of many (although from my lay person point of view, there are many people who suffered from this ban of Dorje Shugden).
However, I don't agree with @kelly that we cannot comment about His activity if we have a good intention. Everything in Buddhism is subject to debate, with good intention of course, for the sake of better understanding and stronger faith.
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Not just because you share my view that Dalai Lama is a Buddha, I agree with Kris that Dalai Lama is a Buddha and as such has no Karma.
As a Vajrayana Buddhist especially within the Gelug doctrine, it is important that we voice our concerns and have debates with clear and right intention and motivation. From this exercise we share and learn.
That is why as to whether the Dalai Lama will have repercussions to the DS ban, is for me to have the realisations and hoping will learn from comments from fellow contributors on this forum. Thank you all as your comments are welcome.
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I think we really do not need to worry about His Holiness the Dalai Lama's karmic result he is Chenrezig after all. But we do need to be concerned with our own practice and mental disposition in the light of facing difficulty and oppression from others who do not view Dorje Shudgen as the Wisdom Buddha.
The Dalai Lama through the powers of his motivation and prayers will once again turn the wheel of dharma for the benefit of migrators.
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It all depends on who we believe Dalai Lama is, in terms of mind continuum. If he is an ordinary human being i.e. unenlightened then he will be reincarnated in the hells for causing schism in the Sangha.
But for me he is Chenrezig, based on the fact that no high Lamas ever doubted that the Dalai Lama is the incarnation of Gendun Drub , a direct disciple of Lama Tsongkhapa and an emanation of Avalokiteshvara or Chenrezig in Tibetan. In other words the Dalai Lama is of an enlightened mind and is beyond karma and more importantly such a being can never act negatively but always act out of compassion due to His Bodhi mind.
But from our point of view, we perceive as though the Dalai Lama has caused schism within the Sangha and the persecution of the Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhist Community. As a results some suffers and some benefited. We must understand no results can be experienced if one has not created the cause according to the most basic tenets of Buddhism. Hence, those experiencing it caused all their own sufferings and benefits. The Dalai Lama can be said to be purifying negative karmas and benefitting others at the same time. And this is an act of a great Mahasiddha.
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As unattained, samsaric being that I am, from a samsaric and relative point of view, it is very distressing to have to look at and live the ban on Dorje Shugden. From the same point of view, so much negative karma is generated from so many people for causing suffering to so very many families in that they are split and harmed by their own family and others. In such circumstances, we tend to see the Dalai Lama not as Chenrezig but just another worldly being.
But, there is the absolute truth which I cannot see and understand as yet. (heh heh - see how I aspire?) This can only be apparent to me in the future, so I do not wish to collect negative karma anymore by condemning anyone. I can only support Dorje Shugden practitioners in ways that I know.
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I agree with Kris that Dalai Lama is a Buddha and as such has no Karma.
As much as any Taliban terrorist agrees that Osama bin Laden was sent by Allah, and as such went straight to the Muslim heaven after being shot by CIA operatives.
Incidentally both Osama bin Laden and the evil dalie are well known as having been on the CIA payroll. And the evil dalie would surely meet the fate of his terrorist colleague if only he would show any pro-China proclivities.
And here is your pathetic “Chenrezig”: a payrolled terrorist hostage of his bosses, trying by violence to assert his local dictatorial authority just like any Pahlavi, Suharto, Pinochet, and so many other bestial clowns cluttering the garbage bin of history.
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But for me he is Chenrezig, based on the fact that no high Lamas ever doubted that the Dalai Lama is the incarnation of Gendun Drub
How can you know the thought of high lamas, and thus that they have never doubted the divine status you ascribe to the criminal dalie? Are you omniscient?
Anyway, Buddhists do not rely on authority, but on direct perception and inference. Your reliance on the authority of what you think is the though of high lamas make of you just an ordinary fanatic, not a Buddhist.
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so I do not wish to collect negative karma anymore by condemning anyone
So be happy with whatever karma you collect by condoning and thus supporting the evil dalie's gruesome crimes as the deeds of Chenrezig.
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We must understand no results can be experienced if one has not created the cause according to the most basic tenets of Buddhism. Hence, those experiencing it caused all their own sufferings and benefits.
How great! Let's now perpetrate every kind of barbarity against innocent people, let's kill, steal, lie, and rape, because they the victims deserve it anyway! This is the most basic tenet of the “Buddhism” you learned from your cult leader, the evil dalie, right?
The Dalai Lama can be said to be purifying negative karmas and benefitting others at the same time. And this is an act of a great Mahasiddha.
Then according to you mass murdererers such as Islamic State terrorists are surely “great Mahasiddhas” too, because all of them are purifying the negative karmas of their helpless victims, and benefiting others such as their own cronies at the same time.
Your debased statement shows the inconceivable level of corruption and insanity resulting from religious extremism and fanaticism. One is not free from this abhorrent evil just because one proclaims to be devoted to Dorje Shugden.
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But for me he is Chenrezig, based on the fact that no high Lamas ever doubted that the Dalai Lama is the incarnation of Gendun Drub
How can you know the thought of high lamas, and thus that they have never doubted the divine status you ascribe to the criminal dalie? Are you omniscient?
Anyway, Buddhists do not rely on authority, but on direct perception and inference. Your reliance on the authority of what you think is the thought of high lamas makes of you just an ordinary fanatic, not a Buddhist.