This is very surprising and shocking to read, especially when presented so starkly (but very well organised, thank you thaimonk! Makes it very easy for us to read).
It all seems very contradictory and confusing, especially as the history of how DS arose as a protector in the first place came about by Nechung's prompting, encouragement and help.
I have also always found it quite confusing why Dalai Lama would consult an unenlightened protector for such important matters of the state and not pelden lhamo (or any other fully enlightened protector). Even in this case, he is shown as choosing the state oracle's answers to "support" his reasons for the ban, as opposed to consulting an enlightened protector who surely would know better?
2. The Fourteenth Dalai Lama states, “Since the time of the Victorious Gedun Gyatso, the second Dalai Lama, Nechung has been one of the two state protectors referred to as the Red and Black protectors, who have had special connection with Tibet’s Ganden Potang government.”
From a talk about gods and protectors on June 25th, 1980 in Mundgod, India
Yes, I too wonder why is it that Nechung, who has not only been “unreliable” now but seen ages ago, are still being consulted ???
Also, Nechung has given false prophesies through the oracle in trance even during the 13th Dalai Lama time (not only now) and these have been documented. For example, a victory against the British promised by Nechung in 1888 did not occur. Tibetans suffered a devastating defeat and also another British military invasion in 1904. Later, Nechung is also believed to have prescribed the wrong medicine which caused the Thirteenth Dalai Lama’s death. (more details can be found in Portrait of a Dalai Lama: The Life and Times of the Great Thirteenth by Charles Bell)
Isn't Nechung's time nearing for him to achieve the enlightened state? If that is the case, then it certainly is not some random problem stirring by Nechung but an enlightened act.
Vajraprotector, you mentioned there are two state protectors ,"red" and "black" protectors, of which Nechung is one of them, what are red and black protectors?
Isn't Nechung's time nearing for him to achieve the enlightened state? If that is the case, then it certainly is not some random problem stirring by Nechung but an enlightened act.
Well Lets play devils advocate and say that Nechung If actually a Bodhisattva on high levels currently, So why would his predicitions be misproven and blatantly wrong in some cases ?
???
Isn't Nechung's time nearing for him to achieve the enlightened state? If that is the case, then it certainly is not some random problem stirring by Nechung but an enlightened act.
Well Lets play devils advocate and say that Nechung If actually a Bodhisattva on high levels currently, So why would his predicitions be misproven and blatantly wrong in some cases ?
???
If Nechung is nearing to enlightenment, then all these inconsistent statements could be viewed as an enlightened act as paving the way for the next protector to come forth, whom I believe is Dorje shugden, As afterall, it was Nechung who appeared as a dove to request Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to stand as a protector for Tsongkhapa teachings, and Nechung promised to provide the right conditions when the time was right.
We must remember it was Nechung who asked Dulzin to arise as an uncommon protector of Dorje Shugden's teachings. It was Nechung again who reminded Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen of his promise when he was Dulzin to arise as the protector again.
Nechung had a pivotal role in our Protector's appearance.
This is clearly written in the long kangsol.
It is predicted that Nechung will gain Enlightenment then vacate his position as Protector of Tibet and that Dorje Shugden will step into his shoes... if Nechung is to be enlightened then he must be doing somethings right... and if Dorje Shugden is going to take over soon, then Nechung will also become enlightened soon - so if he is being inaccurate with predictions - there could be other reasons aside from lack of ability.
I was just reading this article, "The Shadow of the Dalai Lama": [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2624,[/url] where it explains that the reason why Pehar was imposed on the Tibetans was because of political reasons.
"It is true that the oracle god has sworn an oath of loyalty, but it is — in the lamas’ opinion — by no means ruled out that he may one day break this and unleash his full vengeance upon the Tibetans who defeated him in times gone by. He has in his own words explained to Padmasambhava what will then happen. He will destroy the houses and the fields. The children of the Land of Snows will have to endure famine and will be driven insane. The fruit of the land will be destroyed by hail and swarms of insects. The strong will be carried off and only the weak shall survive. Wars shall devastate the roof of the world. Pehar himself will interrupt the meditations of the lamas, rob their spells of their magic power, and force them to commit suicide. Brothers will rape their sisters. He will make the wisdom consorts (the mudras) of the tantra masters bad and heretical, yes, transform them into enemies of the teaching who emigrate to the lands of the unbelievers. But first he shall copulate with them. “I,” Pehar proclaims, “the lord of the temples, the stupas and scriptures, I shall possess the fair bodies of all virgins” (Sierksma, 1966, p. 165)."
I thought this could be interesting - what if instead of Nechung being enlightened, he becomes released of his oath and Dorje Shugden subdues him.
Just another possibility.
Nah, I don't think Nechung could have released himself from a Vajra commitment to Guru Rinpoche. If he did, Nechung would suffer terrible consequences. Otherwise, what is it that is actually holding him back all this time? He is not stupid. Another way that Nechung could have been released is if he had actually gained enlightenment. If he appears to be going against his vows like what he is doing now with Dorje Shugden is to me a clear sign that he has transcended his vows. After all, there are many clairvoyant Lamas watching him...including the Dalai Lama who is fully aware of what his motivation is. Nothing is as simple as it seems.
@WisdomBeing... I don't see any ending or climatic battle in my story. After Nechung becomes enlightened, it is just the beginning. That will mean benefitting others becomes second nature and he will perhaps emanate as a Lama? A Nechung Rinpoche? My imagination is running wild.... Hehe!
@Zach... Well, what I mentioned is merely my speculation. What WisdomBeing quoted is worded to mean that the possibility of Nechung breaking his vows cannot be ruled out completely. As long as he is not a Buddha, the possibility of that happening will always be there. He is just like any of us. He makes mistakes too. I just hope he doesn't do those nasty things.
If there is a prophecy regarding Pehar breaking his oaths then I would take this seriously, If Pehar had the intention to break his oaths then I would take this rather seriously. The havoc Nechung causes by whispering in the ear of the Dalai lama is pretty much apparent to see and whats more shocking is the Dalai lama still relies upon Nechung.
Now honestly using the capacity for critical thinking I dont think its to far to suggest that any bound spirit whom constantly needs to be reminded of his oaths everytime he is summoned will not have been willingly subjegated nor without resent that his oaths represent chains preventing him from having his own way. Pehar may well become enlightened however I fear it shall be in the distant future after all everyone is bound to become enlightened at some stage !
Even with Vajrabindings In degenerate times do not these subjegated beings see the wanning of Buddhas doctrine and dissapearing of Great holy beings as a cause perhapes for their freedom...
I remember one story of Buddha whom was asked to save his clans men for Annihilation, Even when he hid the children in the sun Buddha was unable to stop their karma from ripening that caused them to die. Oaths can be broken as easily as taken of course when the threat of effects of the cause become less apparent to see in Degenerate times then so does the percieved reason for pehars continued servitude as well !
QuoteIf there is a prophecy regarding Pehar breaking his oaths then I would take this seriously, If Pehar had the intention to break his oaths then I would take this rather seriously. The havoc Nechung causes by whispering in the ear of the Dalai lama is pretty much apparent to see and whats more shocking is the Dalai lama still relies upon Nechung.
Now honestly using the capacity for critical thinking I dont think its to far to suggest that any bound spirit whom constantly needs to be reminded of his oaths everytime he is summoned will not have been willingly subjegated nor without resent that his oaths represent chains preventing him from having his own way. Pehar may well become enlightened however I fear it shall be in the distant future after all everyone is bound to become enlightened at some stage !
Even with Vajrabindings In degenerate times do not these subjegated beings see the wanning of Buddhas doctrine and dissapearing of Great holy beings as a cause perhapes for their freedom...
I remember one story of Buddha whom was asked to save his clans men for Annihilation, Even when he hid the children in the sun Buddha was unable to stop their karma from ripening that caused them to die. Oaths can be broken as easily as taken of course when the threat of effects of the cause become less apparent to see in Degenerate times then so does the percieved reason for pehars continued servitude as well !
Many great masters have said Nechung has been proven wrong many times. You are right Zach, it would be good if Dalai Lama would stop listening to Nechung who seems inconsistent. It is also said that many times a negative spirit actually enters the Nechung Oracle monk to speak posing as Nechung. This is quite dangerous. It is the angry spirit of someone who was wronged by the Tibetan Govt and vowed revenge in Tibet.
Many great masters have said Nechung has been proven wrong many times. You are right Zach, it would be good if Dalai Lama would stop listening to Nechung who seems inconsistent. It is also said that many times a negative spirit actually enters the Nechung Oracle monk to speak posing as Nechung. This is quite dangerous. It is the angry spirit of someone who was wronged by the Tibetan Govt and vowed revenge in Tibet.
It looks all very contradictory...especially Nechung having created the "right conditions" for Dorje Shugden to arise..of which the "right condition" was to MURDER Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an illustrious master, a Bodhisattva! How contradictory can that be. Yet, it was this action which brought about the MANIFESTATION of King Dorje Shugden. So, was this incident right or wrong?
Can you imagine today, if an oracle said that he would create the conditions to murder a renowned lama?
For the sake of discussion, and NOT as a justification for the actions of the Dalai Lama, today we have quite a similar situation at hand due to the advice of Nechung. The persecutions, ban, injustice, inhumane actions etc. which is on going really is a parallel of what happened during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen... So now, is this right or wrong? What would this advice and action now bring us in the near future?!
Time will tell...
I have also always found it quite confusing why Dalai Lama would consult an unenlightened protector for such important matters of the state and not pelden lhamo (or any other fully enlightened protector). Even in this case, he is shown as choosing the state oracle's answers to "support" his reasons for the ban, as opposed to consulting an enlightened protector who surely would know better?
If Nechung had been believed in the past perhaps the Dalai Lama would have been lost to the world. Thank Buddha the Dalai Lama followed his teacher Trijang Rinpoche's advice who consulted dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden advised the Dalai lama to leave tibet for India.
the Dalai Lama is no fool he can surely think and know which protector is infallible and that is Dorje Shugden for sure. So all the things that Dalai Lama has done especially the ban and ostracising Dorje Shugden is to spread Dorje Shugden further and further.
It looks all very contradictory...especially Nechung having created the "right conditions" for Dorje Shugden to arise..of which the "right condition" was to MURDER Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an illustrious master, a Bodhisattva! How contradictory can that be. Yet, it was this action which brought about the MANIFESTATION of King Dorje Shugden. So, was this incident right or wrong?
Can you imagine today, if an oracle said that he would create the conditions to murder a renowned lama?
For the sake of discussion, and NOT as a justification for the actions of the Dalai Lama, today we have quite a similar situation at hand due to the advice of Nechung. The persecutions, ban, injustice, inhumane actions etc. which is on going really is a parallel of what happened during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen... So now, is this right or wrong? What would this advice and action now bring us in the near future?!
Time will tell...
If Nechung had been believed in the past perhaps the Dalai Lama would have been lost to the world. Thank Buddha the Dalai Lama followed his teacher Trijang Rinpoche's advice who consulted dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden advised the Dalai lama to leave tibet for India.
the Dalai Lama is no fool he can surely think and know which protector is infallible and that is Dorje Shugden for sure. So all the things that Dalai Lama has done especially the ban and ostracising Dorje Shugden is to spread Dorje Shugden further and further.
This is so true. Reading information on this website has been truly educational and intriguing.
If not for Dorje Shugden, HH would not be here today. It is ironical how HH bans the Protector who saved him. Like DharmaSpace put it, HH cannot possible make such a grave mistake. In the ban, Dorje Shugden lives.
It looks all very contradictory...especially Nechung having created the "right conditions" for Dorje Shugden to arise..of which the "right condition" was to MURDER Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an illustrious master, a Bodhisattva! How contradictory can that be. Yet, it was this action which brought about the MANIFESTATION of King Dorje Shugden. So, was this incident right or wrong?
Can you imagine today, if an oracle said that he would create the conditions to murder a renowned lama?
For the sake of discussion, and NOT as a justification for the actions of the Dalai Lama, today we have quite a similar situation at hand due to the advice of Nechung. The persecutions, ban, injustice, inhumane actions etc. which is on going really is a parallel of what happened during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen... So now, is this right or wrong? What would this advice and action now bring us in the near future?!
Time will tell...