Will the Karmapa Save Dorje Shugden?

[beggar]

Well, indeed! Will he? Won't he? This is just up on the website. What do you think? A plausible future?


WILL THE KARMAPA SAVE DORJE SHUGDEN?
When the ban on Dorje Shugden was implemented and steadily maintained by the Dalai Lama, practitioners of the Gelugpa sect were most affected amongst Tibetan Buddhists. Being one of the most influential sects in Tibetan Buddhism, they came to lose their power due to internal separation within their core monastic institution and ostracism by the rest of their community. Instability and the dilution of power within the Gelug school of Buddhism has thus allowed other Buddhists schools to grow in prominence over the last few decades.

For a religious leader to lead all Tibetans spiritually, a form of unity must be achieved within Tibetan Buddhism itself. In order to build a great pillar, the old has to be leveled and with time, a new one can be built. This is what is now happening within the Tibetan Buddhist community. Banning Dorje Shugden has split the Gelugpas, and diminished their stature among Tibetan Buddhists. However, this also means that there is no longer an extremity of influence from any side and even the Dalai Lama’s previous hold on his people has lessened, especially with his stepping down from secular power.

Increasingly, we are now starting to see a new change in the dynamics within Tibetan Buddhism. There have been several hints in recent years that point towards the Karmapa (head of the Kagyu lineages) succeeding the Dalai Lama as spiritual head of the Tibetan Buddhists. More and more is he seen photographed with the Dalai Lama, or accompanying him in prominent events, meetings and talks. It may seem unusual perhaps that the Dalai Lama has deliberately chosen the leader of a school different from his own Gelugpa lineage to shadow him in these many important activities. Or is this deliberate?

Going Beyond Sectarian Borders
We live in a different time now. We are not in Tibet anymore and since Tibetan Buddhism left Tibet to the outside world, the dynamics changed completely to suit the various cultures, demographics and needs of non-Tibetans around the rest of the world.

Every practitioner may be thinking only of preserving and protecting the purity of their individual lineages. As Gelugpa and Dorje Shugden practitioners, we may be thinking of preserving our specific Gelug lineage and teachings. However, the Dalai Lama may well have a much bigger objective for he needs to preserve Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, something much larger than the preservation of individual sects.

The Dalai Lama has spoken frequently over the years about the importance of developing a rime (non-sectarian) lineage. Accomplishing this however, would have been an altogether different story since he would have been up against individual sects all fighting to preserve their individuals rights, teachings and practices.

So perhaps Dorje Shugden became a convenient pawn for achieving this larger picture of a more united Tibetan Buddhist community. For over 600 years, the Gelugpa school has held an extremely prominent and very strong position within the Tibetan Buddhist world. Even the Dalai Lama himself is Gelugpa, with very strong and influential Gelugpa teachers such as Trijang Rinpoche. The prominence of this school became so strong that the other sects naturally opposed the concept of uniting all sects for they feared the further suppression and dilution of their own sects and the continually growing influence of the strong Gelugpas.

Therefore, in order to water down the strength of the Gelugpa, the Dalai Lama made the most politically astute move to suppress his own sect. The most effective way would have been to target the worship of Dorje Shugden, a practice most closely and exclusively associated with the Gelugpas. Simultaneously, while he ‘put down’ the practice of Shugden, he also worked to groom the Karmapa, of a different sect (the Kagyus), as the next spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism. With this, Tibetan Buddhists would perhaps be more agreeable to the idea of uniting the four schools, thereby achieving the goal of preserving Tibetan Buddhism on a long-term basis. With unity comes preservation.

By this then, we might consider that the Dalai Lama’s ban of Shugden has nothing to do with Shugden being good or bad. The Dalai Lama may well have just used Shugden to achieve the larger objective of uniting all Tibetan Buddhist sects and practitioners. This achieves precisely what the Dalai Lama has often spoken about in uniting all four sects of Tibetan Buddhism and creating the Rime Movement.


The Karmapa and Dorje Shugden: a historical moment
Following the leads and hints which the Dalai Lama has been dropping we might well assume that the Karmapa takes over as the next spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhist world. How then might we expect him to react to the ban on Dorje Shugden? First, a little history -

Once, the previous incarnation of the Karmapa (the 16th Karmapa Rangjung Rigpe Dorje) was on pilgrimage in Nepal, where he went to the opening of Urgyen Rinpoche’s new Nyingma monastery. After being greeted by the Nepalese King and Queen, the 16th Karmapa entered the monastery and saw a statue of the Nyingma Protector Dorje Drolo stepping on Dorje Shugden. The statue had been modified to depict Dorje Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet.

After looking at the statue for a while, the 16th Karmapa then pointed his finger towards the statue and asked, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Who is the person who built this statue?” In a room full of abbots and monks, no one stepped forward.
 
The 16th Karmapa became visibly angry and demanded that the statue be removed. He then gave the following prediction to the Nyingmas at the monastery: “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him”. There were many lamas present at that time who witnessed this event and this incident has also been recorded down in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche’s sungbum.

So far, in this incarnation, the three separately recognised incarnations of the Karmapa have not been widely known to comment negatively on the practice Dorje Shugden nor to disparage any practitioners of the Shugden. Might he be keeping a deliberately low profile for a time when he does assume power and can do something about the situation?


Karmapa: The Leader to Lift the Ban?
As a political leader, the Dalai Lama is expected to be a confident leader who implements policies in a steadfast, unwavering manner. How will it then look for the Dalai Lama, as both a political and spiritual leader, to change his mind about the ban, something which he has upheld so strongly and vocally up until this point? As the leader of what is already a very uncertain, exiled Tibetan community, it would not do well for the Dalai Lama to appear flippant.

It is therefore entirely possible that as a political leader, the Dalai Lama will continue to uphold the ban until his passing. At this point, if the Karmapa does assume the role as the next spiritual leader of the Tibetan Buddhist world, he may well begin to promote Dorje Shugden’s practice again. Even if he does not promote Dorje Shugden, at the very least, the Karmapa may approach the ban from a human rights perspective, and dissolve it simply by declaring the ban to be an unjust policy for his people. Such a ruling from the Karmapa would not be seen as flippant or inconsistent because he has no previous history of being against Dorje Shugden’s practice nor even commenting on it.

Further, should the Karmapa come into power as the spiritual leader, much attention would shift away from the Gelugpas, taking away with it the unpleasant internal politics and disagreements within the schools. While much of the Tibetan Buddhist scene today may be colored more by Gelugpa practices and internal politics, this can be expected to change if the next spiritual leader is of another sect.

The Dalai Lama was previously “allowed” to make certain criticisms and issue edicts to do with Gelugpa practices because he had hailed from within that school. However, should the Karmapa take over, he would not be able to do comment or criticise in the same way, for that would be regarded as sectarianism. In this way, he would not be able to maintain the ban on Dorje Shugden for he has no basis for doing so; to continue enforcing the ban against a practice of another sect would most certainly appear to be sectarian and thus politically incorrect at many levels. For example, it would be unheard of for a Gaden Tripa (the supreme head of the Gelugpa school) to implement a ban against the Nyingma practice of Dzogchen; or for the Karmapa to say that the Sakya worship of Mahakala Panjaranatha is incorrect. So the Karmapa may lift the ban against Dorje Shugden simply because it would be and politically incorrect to maintain it.

For all that the Dalai Lama has done to suppress the practice of Shugden, the Karmapa can thus reverse it in a quick instant without causing undue confusion or stirring any further political animosity. In fact, to maintain the ban would cause more political trouble for him.

With the tide well on its way to turning, we should, as devoted Shugden practitioners, be patient, understanding that the Dalai Lama has a bigger purpose. With the view of preserving Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, everything with that is also encompassed within this protection and growth – every individual sect, lineage, practice and of course, even Dorje Shugden. When the objective set out by the Dalai Lama is achieved, all bans against Shugden will be lifted, because it is not about Him in the first place anyway!

www.dorjeshugden.com

(original article one: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/will-the-karmapa-save-dorje-shugden/)


Photos:
- Photo of Dalai Lama with Karmapa at Capitol Hill - he is being seen more and more in public and at official events with the Karmapa

- Photo of a correct image of Dorje Drolo

- Photo of the version of Dorje Drolo which displeased the Karmapa.

- The Dalai Lama is seen more and more often with leaders of other sects - a move towards accomplishing the Rime movement?

[thor]

The Dalai Lama was previously “allowed” to make certain criticisms and issue edicts to do with Gelugpa practices because he had hailed from within that school. However, should the Karmapa take over, he would not be able to do comment or criticise in the same way, for that would be regarded as sectarianism. In this way, he would not be able to maintain the ban on Dorje Shugden for he has no basis for doing so; to continue enforcing the ban against a practice of another sect would most certainly appear to be sectarian and thus politically incorrect at many levels.

So true, so true. I couldnt have said it better myself. What the Dalai Lama gets away with scot free, another equally eminent lama would never have been able to due to accusations of sectarianism. But yet no one else seems to see this, thus allowing the Dalai Lama to happily spout his version of Dorje Shugden everywhere.

Okay, enough bitching.

Seriously though, I do find hope in this article... hope that things will soon finally reverse for Dorje Shugden and his practitioners. Hope that the Dalai Lama was nurturing the Karmapa all these years for this purpose. Hope that the ban was really just a huge-scale act. Hope that the Dalai Lama really does know what he is doing after all...

[Amitabha]

 

worship of Dorje Shugden

In fact worship of Dorje Shugden is in incorrect from the entire vajra sect point of view. Tibet and/or vajra sect in general is based on the tradition of Vajrasattva as their principle worship / teachings / teacher. The only way not to deviate the wonderful holiness of vajra sect and the essence of future teaching, they should only worship Vajrasattva as their principle/original teacher, whereas Dorje Shugden to be placed beside Vajrasattva for memorial sake or have a separate side room for Dorje Shugden. Otherwise, the vajra sect would be in danger of gradual extinction and their teaching would be decaying, in the dharma degenerative era. May they contemplate on the future survival of vajra sect as a whole instead of Dorje Shugden practitioners. 

Vajrasattva

[Big Uncle]

His Holiness the Dalai Lama traditionally held onto the dual role of a political and spiritual leader to the Tibetans. However, he broke with tradition last year when all political power was transferred to the Kalon Tripa of the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA). The Dalai Lama is officially retired now and with it, ends a four centuries tradition of Dalai Lama’s rule.

As the Dalai Lama ages, the question of a successor comes to mind. The Dalai Lama has expressed that his successor will be a religious leader and not a political one.  He has not officially announced a successor but he is seen appearing in public with the young Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje on many occasions. That means that there’s a high possibility that the Dalai Lama is grooming him to be the successor.

On the other hand, there is also possible that the Dalai Lama will not withdraw the ban on Dorje Shugden in this lifetime. He is after all a religious leader and he would not contradict himself by removing the ban now and appear inconsistent. Therefore, the Dalai Lama would most likely continue with the ban till the very end. However, things would be different once the Karmapa comes to power. He would most likely dissolve the ban on Dorje Shugden as that would be consistent with the views of the previous Karmapa.

Many years ago, the 16th Karmapa Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (the previous incarnation) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal and he stopped by Ugyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time, the Nepalese king and queen were present and they came out to greet him with a white scarf (khata).  When he entered the monastery, he came across a statue of Guru Dragpo trampling on Dorje Shugden. The Karmapa stood in the presence of this statue for a while.

Then, he pointed his finger at it and asked, “Who is the person who commissioned this statue? This isn’t Nyingma or Sakya and certainly it is not Gelug or Kagyu either. I have never requested it to be made. This is not one of the deities you can rely on.”

“Although the time is a little early but in the future, you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” Out of all the abbots and master present, not a single one came forward to acknowledge.  The Karmapa then said “Remove this now!” Immediately, a person with an axe and shovel came forward to remove the statue. Many of the Lamas present at that time will definitely remember this incident. A seventy-five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witness this incident and this was recorded in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche’s Sungbum.

Therefore, the current Karmapa would most likely accept and promote Dorje Shugden. The possible appointment of the Karmapa as a spiritual leader is in line with the Dalai Lama’s Rime movement of recent years. On top of that, Karmapa is generally accepted by all Tibetans, the West (simply because he is endorsed by the Dalai Lama) and the Chinese government. In fact, the Chinese government recognizes the Karmapa to be the legitimate leader of the Karma Kagyu tradition and avoids denouncing him although he is in close proximity with the Dalai Lama and has since escaped Tibet and currently resides in India. 

Therefore, the Karmapa will be in a very powerful position when he assumes the role of a spiritual leader, as everyone will accept whatever he says and endorses. Although in this lifetime, he has not yet expressed his views on Dorje Shugden but there’s a strong possibility that he will fulfill his predecessors’ prophecy as all high level incarnations are always consistent with their body, speech and mind.   

[yontenjamyang]

Well from the story of the 16th Karmapa visiting Urgyen Monastery, it is clear that the Karmapa sees the benefit of the protector for beings of this degenerate age. He said “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him” This is very clear. From this evident, I think the Karmapa will definitely "save" Dorje Shugden. Saving HIM as in his practice for us, beings of this age.

Interestingly, since he addressed a room full of Nyingma practitioners, I deduced that the practice will be widely advocated for other Tibetan schools once the Karmapa has taken over from the Dalai Lama.  I await that day with joyous anticipation.

[beggar]

worship of Dorje Shugden

In fact worship of Dorje Shugden is in incorrect from the entire vajra sect point of view. Tibet and/or vajra sect in general is based on the tradition of Vajrasattva as their principle worship / teachings / teacher. The only way not to deviate the wonderful holiness of vajra sect and the essence of future teaching, they should only worship Vajrasattva as their principle/original teacher, whereas Dorje Shugden to be placed beside Vajrasattva for memorial sake or have a separate side room for Dorje Shugden. Otherwise, the vajra sect would be in danger of gradual extinction and their teaching would be decaying, in the dharma degenerative era. May they contemplate on the future survival of vajra sect as a whole instead of Dorje Shugden practitioners. 

Hi Amitabha and welcome to the forum, good to see new "faces."

Thanks for your sharing too. I'd like to add however, that this isn't technically true. While Vajrasattva and his purification practices / retreats / preliminary practices are an important part of Vajrayana Buddhism, this is NOT the central practice. The central practices and Yidams do differ from one school to another within Tibetan Buddhism (though this does not imply that any or better or worse, just different, to suit the different needs, levels and affinities of practitioners).

This is actually the first time i have heard of Vajrasattva being the principle / main practice of Vajrayana Buddhists LOL! I think it would actually be more accurate to say that the central practice that cuts across ALL Vajrayana Buddhism is Guru devotion, first and foremost. It is through the Guru that we receive all our other practices and it is the Guru that advises us what we should hold and worship as our "central" practices (yidam).

This is why the practice of Guru Yoga (in the case of Gelugpas, it would be the Guru Yoga of Lama Tsongkhapa - invoking the blessings, teachings and lineage of our Guru, his gurus, their Gurus, and so forth all the way to Shakyamuni) is so essential across all schools of Buddhism, and is counted in as one of the preliminary practices. Even the highest lamas in the monasteries (I had the wonderful fortune to meet many!) would always advice us to have pure Guru Devotion and to recite Lama Tsongkhapa's Guru Yoga and migtsema always. With this as the central practice, all other practices fall into place and will bring us success in our spiritual journey.

It is like the teacher is the Doctor, and the practices that he prescribes to us - whether it's Vajrasattva, or Vajrayogini, or Dorje Shugden - is the medicine. All such practices of the yidams, Buddhas and Dharma practices hold equal weighting and importance. One is not more "central" than the other. We hold our Guru as the central focus of our practice and then everything else supports this for us to grow.

[samayakeeper]

If this is true, I await for the time with bated breath. But waiting alone is not good enough. I will continue to visit this site, read and learn, and give my comments. I will support the Online Shop by buying Dorje Shugden images for myself and as gifts for friends. I will talk and promote Lord Shugden.

I applaud all the lamas and loyal Shugdenpas, some of whom have much difficulty in continuing with their propagation and practice, yet remain steadfast and true. I will be diligent in my spiritual practice to gain merit and be around when The King is "free."

The time is nigh.

[dsiluvu]

On the other hand, there is also possible that the Dalai Lama will not withdraw the ban on Dorje Shugden in this lifetime. He is after all a religious leader and he would not contradict himself by removing the ban now and appear inconsistent. Therefore, the Dalai Lama would most likely continue with the ban till the very end. However, things would be different once the Karmapa comes to power. He would most likely dissolve the ban on Dorje Shugden as that would be consistent with the views of the previous Karmapa.

Many years ago, the 16th Karmapa Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (the previous incarnation) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal and he stopped by Ugyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time, the Nepalese king and queen were present and they came out to greet him with a white scarf (khata).  When he entered the monastery, he came across a statue of Guru Dragpo trampling on Dorje Shugden. The Karmapa stood in the presence of this statue for a while.

Then, he pointed his finger at it and asked, “Who is the person who commissioned this statue? This isn’t Nyingma or Sakya and certainly it is not Gelug or Kagyu either. I have never requested it to be made. This is not one of the deities you can rely on.”

“Although the time is a little early but in the future, you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” Out of all the abbots and master present, not a single one came forward to acknowledge.  The Karmapa then said “Remove this now!” Immediately, a person with an axe and shovel came forward to remove the statue. Many of the Lamas present at that time will definitely remember this incident. A seventy-five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witness this incident and this was recorded in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche’s Sungbum.

Therefore, the current Karmapa would most likely accept and promote Dorje Shugden. The possible appointment of the Karmapa as a spiritual leader is in line with the Dalai Lama’s Rime movement of recent years. On top of that, Karmapa is generally accepted by all Tibetans, the West (simply because he is endorsed by the Dalai Lama) and the Chinese government. In fact, the Chinese government recognizes the Karmapa to be the legitimate leader of the Karma Kagyu tradition and avoids denouncing him although he is in close proximity with the Dalai Lama and has since escaped Tibet and currently resides in India. 

Therefore, the Karmapa will be in a very powerful position when he assumes the role of a spiritual leader, as everyone will accept whatever he says and endorses. Although in this lifetime, he has not yet expressed his views on Dorje Shugden but there’s a strong possibility that he will fulfill his predecessors’ prophecy as all high level incarnations are always consistent with their body, speech and mind.

I like your points Big Uncle and I agree with this possibility as I too have heard of this infamous story of the previous Karmapa. This all probably seem premeditated by the powers that be, these Enlightened minds and the puzzle does in the end fit perfectly with what this website has been saying since it all started... that goes in line with what H.H. Trinjang Rinpoche's predictions and advice on not to take any sides as well as Dorje Shugden's own advice not to criticize His Holiness the Dalai Lama...

Oh it all would make perfect sense if the Karmapa is the new religious leader and His reign would be to really unite Tibetans by dissolving the ban!!! May this be true and come true sooooon.
Up until today I have not heard one single negative harsh remark made on Dorje Shugden or it's practitioners... has anyone?

[vajrastorm]

There are many great Enlightened Beings working to benefit the beings of this degenerate age, through their emanations and tulkus. It seems impossible to really fathom the working of their minds and what the outcome will be. I am sure all are united in making sure that the Buddhadharma will continue to flourish in this degenerate age in the form that is most acceptable to the beings of these times. So peaceful and wrathful methods are being employed all at once. 

What appears to be the big picture of HH Dalai Lama's work now unfolding is to unite the different schools of Tibetan Buddhism. His formula seems to be to chose a leader from outside the Gelug school for reasons as have been already expressed in this thread. So, if the Karmapa, who appears to be groomed by HH Dalai Lama to take over from him as the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism(for very logical and convincing reasons already expressed in this thread), does take over this leadership before HH Dalai Lama passes on, it will appear most acceptable and logical for him to lift the ban on Shugden practice, so that he will not be seen as being sectarian. Thus, if things work out this way, then it is possible for the ban to be lifted soon.

My take is that HH Dalai Lama may follow this line of action and officially step down before His passing and pass the mantle of leadership of Tibetan Buddhism to the Karmapa. Then the Karmapa will officially lift the ban on Shugden practice, for the benefit of all.

Nonetheless, the scenario has changed so drastically since the time when Tibet was independent and under HH Dalai Lama's leadership. Tibetan Buddhists, today, include the Tibetan people who had fled from Tibet, as well as Lamas, Geshes and Great Masters. Many of these Lamas and great Masters have created a huge following of Tibetan Buddhists in their countries of exile. Also many great Masters have passed away and their Tulkus have returned and some of these Tulkus, like Kyabje Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche have matured to become highly attained Masters and pandits. There are many more younger emanations who are now being trained and nurtured in such great Shugden Monasteries as Shar Gadan and Serpom. These will be the leaders of Tibetan Buddhism in the near and distant future, who will be the rallying points for the spread and growth of the Buddha Dharma.

It is Je Tsongkapa's teachings that is most suitable and necessary  for the people of this degenerate times and Dorje Shugden is the Protector, sworn to protect and spread these teachings. The Tulkus I have mentioned are Shugden practitioners from Je Tsongkapa's or the Gelug Lineage. Hence they will rightly assume their roles as leaders of Tibetan Buddhism, when the ban is lifted. The Buddha Dharma will indeed flourish far and wide then, to benefit all beings.!

So much work has to be done to promote Dorje Shugden and His practice, the Shugden  Lamas who will preserve and spread the Dharma, and the Shugden Monasteries, which are the crucibles to produce these leaders and  to preserve and spread the teachings. So much work that can be done through supporting the efforts of this great website!   

[lotus1]

This is indeed a very interesting opinion and something to think about. I have always be wonder why would the Vajrayana buddhism has so many different sects and it would be great to be united as one. If Karmapa be the leader to lift the ban, then it maybe possible that all the sects will be also united. It would be exciting to know that Dorje Shugden is the one that uniting the whole Vajrayana Buddhism! 

[biggyboy]

It will be a great welcome with pomp and celebration when the time comes for the lifting of the ban should the 17th Karmapa leader takes over as the spiritual leader.  It will be joyous one for all especially the Gelugpas for many has suffered and still is during this ban.  Looks like we have to continue do what we have to do to create the cause for the ban to be lifted soon!  Let's all be patient and help spread the practice to bring benefits to many.  It will be exponential boom when the ban is lifted!!!

[vajratruth]

The relationship between the Dalai Lama and the Karmapa has been an interesting one. Past Dalai Lamas have not shown, and indeed not invited to have any interest in the selection and enthronement of the Karmapa.

In 1961, the Dalai Lama tried to consolidate all the major schools of Tibetan Buddhism into a single non-sectarian one. It was the 16th Karmapa who stood in the way of the Dalai Lama’s plan. Since it, it is reported that even before the passing of the 16th Karmapa, the Dalai Lama has always been interested in the search and recognition of the next and 17th Karmapa.

The Dalai Lama has always had a special and extraordinary interest in Ogyen Trinley as the 17th Karmapa. Why? It was appear to the cynical mind that 2 factors scuttled the Dalai Lama’s plan for a unification of all the various Tibetan schools in the past  – (i) the resistance of influential Dorje Shugden practitioners who swore and oath to protect the purity of the teachings of the Gelug school and (ii) the resistance of the 16th Karma who fought for autonomy of the various schools instead of consolidation. Merging the major Tibetan Buddhist schools have always been a politically motivated move.

In response the Dalai Lama banned the practice of Dorje Shugden and by so doing, split the Gelug School so that it was no longer a single unified and loud voice. And then the Dalai Lama for the first time in the history of Dalai Lamas, got personally involved in the recognition and enthronement of the 17th Karmapa, thus splitting the Kagyu sect to make sure that the position of the 16th Karmapa in standing against unification of the Tibetan schools is not succeeded.

The Dalai Lama has been extreme deft in removing historical factors to a single unified body representing Tibetan Buddhism and his most recent move of divulging the Office of the Dalai Lama from all political powers once and for all guarantees that future heads of Tibetan Buddhism are not burdened with political skullduggery.

Still, I keep thinking about the prediction of the 16th Karmapa who said: “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector [Dorje Shugden]; there will come a time when you need him”. I feel somehow Dorje Shugden is a key to the future of Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism.

[Manjushri]

This is an interesting viewpoint indeed. There could be a high possibility for this to happen. From the forum and a few of the hints that HHDL has given, I remember it was suggested and a very high possibility that this incarnation of the Dalai Lama could very well be the last one. Therefore, if that is the case, then who will be the next head of Tibetan Buddhism? Karmapa? Very strong possibility.

With all of the Dalai Lama's actions now, it could be that this is the bigger picture and that is why all the Shugden Lamas have compassionately kept a low profile instead of creating a backlash to Dalai Lama's imposed ban. Remember that the current generation of gennuine high lamas work hand in hand to spread and lift the Dharma until the next generation of lamas come who will continue to uphold it together. I guess it is not as simple as we think it to be and only time will tell.

[Ensapa]

The Karmapa currently has 2 versions: the one that was chosen by the Dalai Lama and Tai Situpa and the one that was chosen by Sharmapa. The previous Karmapa was said to be very close to the previous Trijang Rinpoche. Up to now, nobody can say which Karmapa is the authentic one, but it seems that Thaye Dorje has spoken a little about the Dorje Shugden issue....hmmmmm perhaps he would take over the throne? But what will happen if Orgyen Trinley took over?

[Dondrup Shugden]

The theory of uniting all the Tibetan Buddhist sect into one is one that is very exciting for me.  From history, Je Tsongkapa studied all the schools and did try to unite them under Gelug. During that time, many smaller schools came under the umbrella of Gelup sect.  Totality of having on school did not happen, can we even consider it possible now especially when so many of the schools are already outside of Tibet and the disciples are multi cultured and multi nationalities.

Not to mention the splitting of Gelug over Dorje Shugden due to the Ban, there is also great confusion as there are now 2 Karmapas.

Can Dalai Lama appoint Karmapa to be his successor when traditionally it is the Panchen Lama who takes over until the Dalai Lama is enthroned.  There is a Panchen Lama in China who is very much promoted by the Chinese Authorities.

This is a good topic of discussions and views but personally it still boils down to the fact that religion should not be governed by politics but pure view to benefit others.

All in all whether the Tibetan schools get united or not, the biggest issue on hand to lift the band for continued harmony in the school of Gelug.