Being sectarian just because we follow one path...?

[triesa]

Where is the logic in this?! To start with, Je Tsongkhapa is an Enlightened being, prophesied by Buddha Shakyamuni that he will come to revive Dharma in this degenerate times. If anyone's a Buddhist, we would know of the 84000 methods to obtain happiness and liberation.

Now, let's then focus on all 84000 methods, in order to not be sectarian?? It's totally illogical.

And who says whatever else we are NOT practicing is considered bad. It doesn't mean just because we are Gelugpas, then the Kagyus/Sakyas/Ningmas are wrong or bad. Why should it be viewed that way?

View of duality at play?

If Buddha Shakyamuni has 84000 methods to enlightenment, does it mean practitioner of one method views the others as sectarian?

Like DS Friend said, totally illogical. I agree.

Example : We go to an international buffet, we are all hungry, and we want our stomach to be full.  You like noodles, he likes pasta, she like fried rice and I like potatoes. We are all happy and full when we come out. Why push the other to eat what they dont like when they can have other foods that will equally serve the same purpose.....a full stomach at the end.

[DharmaSpace]

Much criticism has been leveled at dorje shugden practitioners unfairly as being sectarian. To quote an incident in the past was during the escape from India many monks, lamas of all traditions congregated at Buxaduar, there were about 1500 monks and there were  no sign or any inter sect tension despite many of the gelug monks were strong practitioners of Dorje Shugden. In fact the harmony among the monks at Buxaduar was very well known. 

[DharmaDefender]

What a load of nonsense. Im only just about regular with my sadhana and my commitments to my guru, and now they want me to do MORE, to prove to THEM something I already know I am not (and that is Im not sectarian)? Sorry but Id rather be a master of one thing, than a jack of all trades.

[vajrastorm]

Focusing one's energy on the teachings and practices of one lineage(in this case the Gelug or Je Tsongkapa's Lineage), as a requirement or commitment in receiving initiations into the practice of Dorje Shugden, is perfectly and logically alright. It is not sectarian when one does not, at the same time, engage in negative sectarian activities like criticizing, putting down and attacking other lineages and traditions. Indeed, we see how many high Gelug Lamas or realized Masters, who are Dorje Shugden practitioners, go about their practice with great dignity and without retaliating back at those who condemn or criticize or attack them, not even the Dalai Lama who had imposed the ban on Dorje Shugden practice.

Being sectarian implies being narrow or selective in one's practice of the Dharma. The practitioners of the Gelug or Je Tsongkapa's pure Lineage cannot be accused of being sectarian. Why so? It's because if we examine Je Tsongkapa's teachings as contained in the Lamrim (the Graduated Stages of the Path to Enlightenment)we can see clearly that they contain all of the 84000 teachings of Lord Buddha. These teachings are passed down through an unbroken lineage from Buddha Shakyamuni; it is hence complete as well as authentic.

[Ensapa]

before we go further in to the whole idea of sectarianism, we need to examine what happened that gave people the idea that being exclusive to a certain tradition as being sectarian. During the 19th century, there was a movement known as Rime. This movement was started by Jamgon Kongtrul and emphasizes on not taking sides when taking teachings, as the word Rime means:

Ris or Phyog-ris in Tibetan means "one-sided", "partisan" or "sectarian". Med means "No". Ris-med (Wylie), or Rimé, therefore means "no sides", "non-partisan" or "non-sectarian".

This "movement" caused the Nyingma and Kagyu traditions to fuse together into what we know them as today. It encouraged all the Tibetan Buddhist schools to study each other and to not just stick to one tradition.Which is fine, but many people these days get the wrong idea of Rime and use it as a basis and excuse that it is okay to practice other traditions.

The movement's name is derived from two Tibetan words: Ris (bias, side) and Med (lack), which combined expresses the idea of openness to other Tibetan Buddhist traditions, as opposed to sectarianism. The Rimé movement therefore is often misunderstood as trying to unite the various sects through their similarities, which was not the case. Rimé was intended to recognize the differences between traditions and appreciate them, while also establishing a dialogue which would create common ground. It is considered important that variety be preserved, and therefore Rimé teachers are generally quite careful to emphasize differences in thought, giving students many options as to how to proceed in their spiritual training.

With this quote, I find it very confusing as to why would people use this as an excuse to skirt around different traditions and claim that they base it on the rime movement, and that mixing traditions is okay for them. In other words, even if this tradition was not intended to have that effect, the end result was that a lot of people felt that anything that was not within this movement as sectarian. On wikipedia also, it is mentioned:

The movement began within a large context of increasing domination by the Gelug lineage. Beginning in the 17th century, the Gelug view and politics increasingly dominated in Tibet and the minority lineages were at risk for losing their traditions.[14] At its founding, the Rimé movement was primarily non-Gelugpa teachers and at times the movement has appeared critical of Gelug views. Professor Georges Dreyfus suggests this argumentation was less to create further division but was to bolster minority views that had been marginalized by Gelug supremacy. Nonetheless, philosophic commentaries by early Rimé writers tend to criticize Gelugpa tenets.

In other words, the rime movement somehow had the effect of making the Gelug seem sectarian when they were just minding their own business. The idea that being exclusive to one tradition is sectarian stemmed from this movement even though "it was not intended to be that way"...hmm. But that aside, the Gelugs do respect and hold in high esteem other traditions, just that they do not practice their teachings. So Gelug conforms to the Rime ideology from the start, but why did the early rime writers criticize Gelug from the start? hmm 

[Zach]

Early Rime Started as a political-spiritual stick with which to beat the Gelugpa's with and now it is being used in its full capacity to beat Gelugs who wish to follow their spiritual guides advise without bowing to the political influence of the Dalai lama, We all know the Dalai lama's reasoning's are ridiculous whats more is that in the early 60's when all the Lama's first congregated in India there where attempts back then by the Dalai lama and the Gaden Phodrang to use the Rime Philosophy to unite all the schools and teachers under the Dalai lama's central authority (something that they had been unable to do in Tibet because of regional loyalties and a disconnection between the Dalai lama and the people) where unsuccessful because of various reasons, Dorje Shugden was the ideal sacrifice to make this political ambition become a reality after all if you can't make schools unite naturally then unite them under the banner of hatred right ? Just as so many politicians have done in the past point the finger at a certain section of the population as the cause of all their problems.

Fortunately the more exposing we do the weaker their argument becomes and the more ridiculous they look
The Dalai lama will have no choice in the future but to remove this ban because of the increasing strength of Shugden practitioners and their supporters around the world. The Basis of this division is upon political grounds+dodgy spiritual reasoning's and it will be no doubt a cause for the decline and befall of serious misfortune upon all those who persecute Shugden practitioners now or who create incorrect statues or practices based upon this Ignorance, In the future it will be their practices that are banned because they have been the main cause of sectarianism and suffering of their spiritual brothers and sisters and for not following actual Buddhist tenets...Who would seriously need to create practices that guard against a particular so called spirit ? Either they have no actual refuge or they believe this spirit to be more powerful then the Buddha's. Both ridiculous and Non Buddhist points that shall be removed in the future.

[Ensapa]

To be honest, I did find it weird that the rime movement excluded the Gelugs in the first place, and isnt it that the Gelug school is actually Rime from the start, since Tsongkhapa actually took teachings from all the traditions of his time? It didint really occurred to me that Rime was actually created in response to the popularity of the Gelug, where Tsongkhapa has always emphasized on following the system where the Buddha has taught - focus on ethics, Guru devotion and on preparing the ground well before entering the path of Tantra, something that was not emphasized during his time. So, in other words, Gelug is a more systematic way of rime. No doubt that the movement united other schools, but it also caused them to be jealous of Gelug and they also spread a very dangerous and poisonous mentality that being just with one tradition means that you are sectarian. In fact, the Rime movement sounds very good at first, until we discover how and what are they doing to the Gelugpas.

I do not think that it is "wrong" to seek teachings from other traditions if we are Gelugpa, but it is wrong if we do not have a stable foundation in our own tradition before we explore another, or do it without the permission of our own Gurus. I am sure it is not an issue at all if we have mastered the Gelug lineage and all the teachings in it and then we seek teachings from Sakya, Kagyu and Nyingma, but so far how many people is able to do that? As a Gelug, I do learn up on other lineages such as their histories and a summary of their practices, but I do not see the need to partake in their teachings simply because I already have a lot of teachings and practices I have yet to study and practice in my own tradition, so why do I need to seek other teachings when I cant finish my own?

The current idea of nonsectarianism actually originates with Rime, and perhaps people misinterpreted it, or perhaps it is an idea that stems from insecurity, as the quote below shows?

In the West, where so many different Buddhist traditions exist side by side, one needs to be constantly on one's guard against the danger of sectarianism. Such a divisive attitude is often the result of failing to understand or appreciate anything outside one's own tradition. Teachers from all schools would therefore benefit greatly from studying and gaining some practical experience of the teachings of other traditions.[16]

Does anyone here fail to appreciate Dzogchen or Mahamudra? Or the masters from other tradition? I dont think so. we just dont do any of their practices. thats all.