Dalai Lama says his Gurus are wrong; Lama Zopa says they're not. Which is it?

[Barzin]

This is really a test of faith.  This controversial issue is exactly the a whole big purification for the entire universe so that they can receive the precious protector.  All these have caused much confusion among the people.  So who to follow?  But one day, if we look back.. what they have been saying have never go on elaboration.  No matter how many times His Holiness bite his own tongue, he never describe further.  In this can, he only mentioned "wrong, yes, wrong."  but he can just possibly meant that the gurus are wrong to abandon the practice?  Whichever angle we look at just like what beggar said, too much grey area.  It is impossible to build a house on ice.

[lotus1]

Definitely the ban is illogical! We have seen so many reincarnations of high lama who practice Dorje Shugden such as Trijang Rinpoche, Domo Rinpoche, Rabgya Rinpoche (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/rabgya-rinpoche-celebrates-his-25th-birthday/), etc. It has clearly shown that Dorje Shugden is not a harmful spirits that will harm them as they have reincarnated!

I would think all these are plots from HH Dalai Lama to spread Dorje Shugden to the world especially China and US. HH Dalai Lama as the emanation of Chenrezig, how would he be so not compassionate to the Dorje Shugden practitioners unless it is for the big picture??!!

The recent news is that HH Dalai Lama told he would stop condemning Dorje Shugden. (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/dalai-lama-will-stop-condemning-dorje-shugden/).  I just can’t wait for him to move one more step forward to lift the ban!

[Ensapa]

This is really a test of faith.  This controversial issue is exactly the a whole big purification for the entire universe so that they can receive the precious protector.  All these have caused much confusion among the people.  So who to follow?  But one day, if we look back.. what they have been saying have never go on elaboration.  No matter how many times His Holiness bite his own tongue, he never describe further.  In this can, he only mentioned "wrong, yes, wrong."  but he can just possibly meant that the gurus are wrong to abandon the practice?  Whichever angle we look at just like what beggar said, too much grey area.  It is impossible to build a house on ice.

Perhaps, the Dalai Lama imposed the ban and act in such a way to provoke his followers into thinking more and to make them do research but sadly they are not doing what they are supposed to do and it is to investigate the Dharma protector throughly. In some older teachings, the Dalai Lama always told everyone to investigate usually after talking about Dorje Shugden. I cant find the exact teachings or video here because i cant really recall - it was on the Dalai Lama's website but it has been removed since. Actually, the Dalai Lama's website has removed 1-2 articles from their website regarding Dorje Shugden. This could be interesting.

[Big Uncle]

Hmmm, interesting. If Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche can practice Dorje Shugden because he is capable of handling the spirit, why can't the Dalai Lama practice Dorje Shugden as well. Can't he handle the spirit as well?

That's an excellent point Big Uncle.

And it's brought up a few other questions for me:

If Trijang Rinpoche can practice Dorje Shugden because he can "handle" this spirit, then surely that would mean that he knows better and is more capable / attained etc? If that's the case, and if he really does know better, then why isn't it valid to take HIS advice that Dorje Shugden is a a Buddha and not at all harmful; that this is in fact a very beneficial practice?

If Trijang Rinpoche is able to handle Dorje Shugden, then surely he should be powerful enough to also know the potential harm or benefit of this protector. So if he says that it is a good practice, why don't we listen to him?

Why is it that the Dalai Lama is 'correct' about his 'realisation' that Dorje Shugden is a harmful demon? But Trijang Rinpoche is not correct to say that Dorje Shugden is a good protector and practice?

Why is the Dalai Lama more correct than Trijang Rinpoche and with a clearer insight to the supposed 'harm' and intention of Dorje Shugden, but not able to handle Dorje Shugden? Isn't this contradictory?

The Dalai Lama is regarded as an emanation of Chenrezig; Trijang Rinpoche is regarded as an emanation of Vajrayogini. Who is more powerful and correct - Chenrezig or Vajrayogini?

Thoughts please on how to answer these? (if they can even be answered! Most of these questions are rhetorical!)

Well, I personally think that we cannot just compare 2 Buddhas just like that. It is obvious to me that the ban is a display of conflict when in reality there is actually no conflict between both sides. I think that the ban was manifested to spread Dorje Shugden in a bigger way and the results is there to see in China. Dorje Shugden practitioners in China is growing like wildfire.

This must be the direct result of the ban on Dorje Shugden because the Chinese authorities are not interested in Buddhism at all as they profess to be an atheist state. Realizing that the only way to handle the Tibetan people is to work with their religious establishment and seeing the conflict that exist between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden practitioners, the Chinese authorities have subtly extended support for Dorje Shugden monasteries, Lamas and practitioners.

[honeydakini]

I think that the ban was manifested to spread Dorje Shugden in a bigger way and the results is there to see in China. Dorje Shugden practitioners in China is growing like wildfire.

Hi Big uncle,

It's interesting what you have pointed out about the practice spreading throughout China. There's been so many stories recently on the website about the Chinese lamas growing influence in the world and their efforts to promote the practice of Dorje Shugden. So it does look like what you're saying is already starting to take place all over China and mainland Tibet.

I'd like to add that as well as making the practice grow throughout China (all part of the Dalai Lama's wiley plan?), I think that the ban makes the practice grow in other ways throughout the world too. Most importantly, it strengthens' individuals' faith. Because of the ban, we are pushed to learn more, discover the incredible stories and accomplishments of the DS lamas and develop many perspectives on why the ban is illogical and not in accordance with Dharma. Faith grows in this way too. It grows within communities that now have to fend for themselves and have little community support. It also grows within individual practitioners who must reconcile many difficult situations (such as having to choose between teachers or being suddenly told that a lifelong practice is wrong).

Sometimes when you are told you cannot do something, forbidden fruit tastes sweeter and you want to do it all the more. You resolve to find out everything you can about it to prove the other side wrong and make something good, even better.

It is a common psychology and we all know it. Perhaps, even, the Dalai Lama knows this best of all.

[Ensapa]

I think that the ban was manifested to spread Dorje Shugden in a bigger way and the results is there to see in China. Dorje Shugden practitioners in China is growing like wildfire.

Hi Big uncle,

It's interesting what you have pointed out about the practice spreading throughout China. There's been so many stories recently on the website about the Chinese lamas growing influence in the world and their efforts to promote the practice of Dorje Shugden. So it does look like what you're saying is already starting to take place all over China and mainland Tibet.

I'd like to add that as well as making the practice grow throughout China (all part of the Dalai Lama's wiley plan?), I think that the ban makes the practice grow in other ways throughout the world too. Most importantly, it strengthens' individuals' faith. Because of the ban, we are pushed to learn more, discover the incredible stories and accomplishments of the DS lamas and develop many perspectives on why the ban is illogical and not in accordance with Dharma. Faith grows in this way too. It grows within communities that now have to fend for themselves and have little community support. It also grows within individual practitioners who must reconcile many difficult situations (such as having to choose between teachers or being suddenly told that a lifelong practice is wrong).

Sometimes when you are told you cannot do something, forbidden fruit tastes sweeter and you want to do it all the more. You resolve to find out everything you can about it to prove the other side wrong and make something good, even better.

It is a common psychology and we all know it. Perhaps, even, the Dalai Lama knows this best of all.

I do agree that due to the ban, many Dorje Shugden practitioners are forced to be more resilient and have their Dharma practice and samaya tested. It has put a lot of people through many difficult choices and life decisions but at the same time it made them stronger and it made them really contemplate and re-evaluate what is Guru devotion all about and also whether or not their Dharma practice gets tested under the current conditions, and despite even that they manage to hold on to what their Gurus told them to do, which is Dorje Shugden, while some of the younger ones who seem to be fanatical to the Dalai Lama quickly denounce their own lineage (and as a result get no results from their Dharma practice) so yeah, it seems to be a filter of sorts t me.

[Gabby Potter]

I'm pretty sure that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has His very own reasons to say this out loud to the public, especially when Guru Devotion is such a common and basic practise, don't you think that His Holiness hasn't master that already??