Unreliability of Nechung at times

[WoselTenzin]

I have also always found it quite confusing why Dalai Lama would consult an unenlightened protector for such important matters of the state and not pelden lhamo (or any other fully enlightened protector). Even in this case, he is shown as choosing the state oracle's answers to "support" his reasons for the ban, as opposed to consulting an enlightened protector who surely would know better?

That was what I have been wondering all along too.  Why would HH Dalai Lama, an emanation of a fully enlightened being, Avalokiteshvara himself for so many incarnations consult an unenlightened protector Nechung?   Futhermore, Nechung has been continuously consulted even after he has given so many inaccurate predictions in the past.   It simply doesn't make sense.

If Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokiteshvara, isn't he supposed to be omnicient and can see much further into the future than Nechung?  Why does he even need to consult an oracle?

I also understand that High Lamas sometimes consult the oracle even though they know the answers because ordinary beings tend to think the Lama is ordinary and the protector deity is the omnipotent god and therefore will have more faith if the prediction came from the deity.  This would not pose a problem if the deity being consulted is an enlightened deity as the answer given would have been the same as the Lama's if he had given it himself.

The question now is if the answer given by the unenlightened protector being consulted for whatever good reasons is wrong, why doesn't the High Lama, in this case Dalai Lama intervene and even act on the wrong prediction given? 

I find it quite puzzling.  Maybe someone has an answer.

[DharmaSpace]

If Nechung had been believed in the past perhaps the Dalai Lama would have been lost to the world. Thank Buddha the Dalai Lama followed his teacher Trijang Rinpoche's advice who consulted dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden  advised the Dalai lama to leave tibet for India.

the Dalai Lama is no fool he can surely think and know which protector is infallible and that is Dorje Shugden for sure. So all the things that Dalai Lama has done especially the ban and ostracising Dorje Shugden is to spread Dorje Shugden further and further.

[diamond girl]

If Nechung had been believed in the past perhaps the Dalai Lama would have been lost to the world. Thank Buddha the Dalai Lama followed his teacher Trijang Rinpoche's advice who consulted dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden  advised the Dalai lama to leave tibet for India.

the Dalai Lama is no fool he can surely think and know which protector is infallible and that is Dorje Shugden for sure. So all the things that Dalai Lama has done especially the ban and ostracising Dorje Shugden is to spread Dorje Shugden further and further.

This is so true. Reading information on this website has been truly educational and intriguing.

If not for Dorje Shugden, HH would not be here today. It is ironical how HH bans the Protector who saved him. Like DharmaSpace put it, HH cannot possible make such a grave mistake. In the ban, Dorje Shugden lives.

[thaimonk]

It's all definitely part of the grand scheme or the bigger picture of things. The Dalai Lama is far from stupid. Some people may think he makes mistakes, but with mistakes, he can correct it. He leaves the situation as it is even knowing what is happening. It is on purpose.

We can think whatever we like about the Dalai Lama, but the fact is, Shugden is spreading because of him.
 
I like this quote below from this website's homepage very much. It gives me courage and strength during dark moments I have from time to time.


" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

[dsiluvu]

It looks all very contradictory...especially Nechung having created the "right conditions" for Dorje Shugden to arise..of which the "right condition" was to  MURDER Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an illustrious master, a Bodhisattva! How contradictory can that be. Yet, it was this action which brought about the MANIFESTATION of King Dorje Shugden. So, was this incident right or wrong?

Can you imagine today, if an oracle said that he would create the conditions to murder a renowned lama?

For the sake of discussion, and NOT as a justification for the actions of the Dalai Lama, today we have quite a similar situation at hand due to the advice of Nechung. The persecutions, ban, injustice, inhumane actions etc. which is on going really is a parallel of what happened during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen... So now, is this right or wrong? What would this advice and action now bring us in the near future?!

Time will tell...

I am also thinking along the lines of dear dsfriend... yes it is very apparent that everything about Dorje Shugden from beginning right up till now has been a huge controversy! It seems like Dorje Shugden manifested from the sea of muddy politics of samsara which is everything that is illogical, unfair, contradictory, illegal and controversial! How very interestingly unique... DS is like the only protector that seems to have arise from the negative karma of this world, becoming a powerful protector for us in this hugely degenerate times.

Reminds me of Vajrayogini, as time gets more and more degenerate, she gets more and more powerful and efficacious, DS is alike don't you think? And Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's secret practice is Vajrayogini, no? 

[dsiluvu]

If Nechung had been believed in the past perhaps the Dalai Lama would have been lost to the world. Thank Buddha the Dalai Lama followed his teacher Trijang Rinpoche's advice who consulted dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden  advised the Dalai lama to leave tibet for India.

the Dalai Lama is no fool he can surely think and know which protector is infallible and that is Dorje Shugden for sure. So all the things that Dalai Lama has done especially the ban and ostracising Dorje Shugden is to spread Dorje Shugden further and further.

This is so true. Reading information on this website has been truly educational and intriguing.

If not for Dorje Shugden, HH would not be here today. It is ironical how HH bans the Protector who saved him. Like DharmaSpace put it, HH cannot possible make such a grave mistake. In the ban, Dorje Shugden lives.

I could not agree more with the

It looks all very contradictory...especially Nechung having created the "right conditions" for Dorje Shugden to arise..of which the "right condition" was to  MURDER Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an illustrious master, a Bodhisattva! How contradictory can that be. Yet, it was this action which brought about the MANIFESTATION of King Dorje Shugden. So, was this incident right or wrong?

Can you imagine today, if an oracle said that he would create the conditions to murder a renowned lama?

For the sake of discussion, and NOT as a justification for the actions of the Dalai Lama, today we have quite a similar situation at hand due to the advice of Nechung. The persecutions, ban, injustice, inhumane actions etc. which is on going really is a parallel of what happened during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen... So now, is this right or wrong? What would this advice and action now bring us in the near future?!

Time will tell...

[dsiluvu]

Yes it is true isn't it that although the Dalai Lama appears to be listening to Nechung's advice... He in fact never did in following Nechung's advice on staying on in Tibet when the Red Guards came, but instead followed DS's advice

Now Dalai Lama imposes a ban on DS just cause Nechung said so... no, definitely there must be a bigger deeper reason for all this sudden turn around of hate. In fact I think Dalai Lama and Nechung are very kind to have made themselves look like the bad guys, they have risk their reputation, put themselves on the line which I am sure they could see what was coming, to actually bring Dorje Shugden to world media attention.

So actually if we think about it, we should thank Dalai Lama and Nechung for blowing the loud horn on Dorje Shugden to everyone

[Barzin]

This website and forum is amazing and can be so addictive!  I've learned so much overtime.  Thankyou all for posting such informative and educational answers.  Yes, I thought it was very contradictory but at times it seems real and sometimes it seems otherswise.  By learning and following this forum allowed me to open my mind bit by bit to be able to see how every situation is almost plan and how high lamas are working all together in order for Shugden to spread, including H.H The Dalai Lama... 

It is of course for a higher purpose, bigger reason and picture!  Personally i think it is also ways that His Holiness showed the world or rather the Chinese that by practicing Shugden, it will affect him; so he manifests flaws and all.  Then on the other hand, perhaps people will think since Nechung is not enlightened, there will be inaccuracy.  So Shugden practice will be adopted by many more.

With no offense, when His Holiness passes away.  The ban will be lifted.  All Lamas who owned "Shugden" will come out.  Eventually it will be a Shugden world.  It is indeed very noble all these high beings worked so hard together to benefit the beings.  May dharma spreads to every corner of world!!!

[Ensapa]

I find it quite odd that despite being inaccurate at so many accounts, Nechung still takes trance for the Kashag and for the Dalai Lama but whether or not his advice is followed upon or ignored remains to be seen. Logically, if Nechung is no longer reliable, I would not really consult him anymore but why does the CTA continue to consult him after so many predictions failed to materialize? Maybe its because the CTA consults Nechung that caused them to not be able to gain independence all along? If I were them, I would switch to Dorje Shugden and give him a try.