Author Topic: Shugden and other schools of Buddhsim  (Read 18441 times)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Shugden and other schools of Buddhsim
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2008, 04:10:07 PM »
OK. Now that I read this topic anew, I think I should say something more...

Seriously, I don't advice you practise Dorje Shugden along with Nyima Practise. (1) Besides, I was told that our Lineage master Je TsongKha pa has filtered on those teachings that cannot be used. (2) Those "buried teausres" teachings from Nyima cannot be used at all and has no history of lineage passed down all the way from Lord Buddha Shakyamuni. (3) Besides that, the view of emptiness isn't complete and in order to gain enlightment to Buddhahood, we must use the view of Lord Nagajurna and Lord Chandrakriti, as per advice from Lord Manjushri to Lord Tsong Kha Pa.

Here, I need to say the following:

(1) Filtered? Hmmm... if you look at the different practices done nowadays by Gelukpas generally, and DS practitioners in particular, you will see many practices that originate from Nyingma and Kagyu traditions, not just from Sakya and Kadam traditions. For instance, the Avalokiteshvara sadhanas teached by GKG have interesting origins. The Ganden Chöd has both close and distant lineages. And so forth. So we can deduce, that there is nothing inherently wrong with non-geluk sources, for clearly Je Tsongkhapa approved some of them. But, and this is the Big But, why should we restrict ourselves (on doctrinal or dogmatical level) to only those practices that were "approved and filtered" by Je Tsongkhapa? Really? Considering that the "abandoning of Dharma" is a big no-no, I personally would rather take the position that if something was not expressedly disproved or disapproved by Je Tsongkhapa, we should at the very least give those Teachings the benefit of doubt, or rather the benefit of faith. For instance, since JT never approved nor disproved Theravada, should we now categorically deny it's validity or give it the benefif of faith? JT said nothing on Theravada, so is it now "not approved" or is it something "to be accepted"? Well, this is simple, really... To the extent Theravada doctrines agree with JT, we can accept them to be the very Buddha-Vacana that they are. (In fact, Theravada agrees with JT on emptiness, whereas Chittamatra does not!) The point I wish to make here is that, since JT had not access to all the different traditions and presentations, we therefore cannot take the view that only those things that were "approved and filtered" by JT are correct, and everything else is incorrect. No. We must do the opposite. We should only disapprove of those things that JT expressedly proved to be wrong.

(2) "Termas are not valid", you say? Say what? The basis of Ganden Oral Lineage, and therefore the whole tradition of Je Tsongkhapa, is based on a set of visionary teachings given by Manjushri to Je Tsongkhapa. In Nyingma circles this would be classified as a "pure-vision terma". The very Kadam Emanation Scripture is nothing more that a full fledged terma. Well, it wasn't given by Padmasambhava for sure, but by Manjushri, but who cares? A Guru is a Guru. There is no lineage beyond that. Well, to be more specific, the close lineage goes to that vision, and nowhere beyond that, but the so called distant lineage exists only because JT made the effort to find the doctrinal bases for everything contained therewith. The true Nyingma termas can be proved in a similar way. JT showed how the visionary teachings he received are in harmony with the generally known Dharma, and the same can be done with all valid Nyingma termas. Therefore, one could actually take the view that if a follower of JT categorically dismisses Nyingma termas, then that person has abandoned Dharma in general, and by implication has shown great disrespect towards the Ganden Dharma in particular, and therefore cutted his own root and sustenance. So please, be careful...

(3) If someone has personally not "found the unfoundability of the unfoundable", one should not speak about that, at all. Really.

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You can only choose either one of the traditions, not both at the same time.

Yes and no.

One generally needs to have one system from which one approaches the totality of Dharma, the totality of one's Life. Otherwise it could be very confusing. But also one should try to find that one system by trying to have experience of all the available traditions. And this has some pracical implications:

(A) If one chooses not to try and test, one is implicitely abandoning the Dharma.

(B) Of course, some people get lucky and find the one at the beginning, but this rare occurrence is not a reason to restrict those who are not so lucky. Some people find their love-of-the-lifetime at the first sight. Most do not. Those who are lucky should not behave arrogantly towards those who need to have a little bit of seach... If one does so, if one acts as if everyone would be lucky-just-as-me, one lacks compassion, big time.

So please, be careful.

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Besides, if you still insist on practsing Dorje Shugden with Nyima practise, I believe Lord Dorje Shugden won't be very happy, as many lamas has been forewarn or punished if still insist.

Yea, yea, yea.  >:( I guess I'll have to say that I must be very lucky indeed for not being "punished". Maybe it's because I'm not a Lama.  ;D
But seriously... the DS I know is not a Punisher. He is a Buddha. (And even if he weren't, my refuge (of the 3 Jewels) protects me from ghost stories.  :D Does your Refuge practice protect you?  ??? If not, then what...  ::) ) So, oh please, let's forget the scary stories, and continue with our practice of Lamrim.

beggar

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Re: Shugden and other schools of Buddhsim
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2008, 05:33:39 PM »
It might be worthwhile at this point to reflect on a very basic point about lineages. An authentic lineage is a system that's complete in itself, i.e. that can take us from here to Buddhahood. So the danger in mixing is that we imply to ourselves (and those around us) that our lineage is not complete, which necessarily makes it hard or impossible to have faith in it, and to practice with conviction and determination. Without these it seems very difficult to gain attainments. I also wonder if the blessings of the lineage gurus can reach us fully in this way. Therefore, without even comparing different traditions much less judging them, these are strong reasons to focus on the system one has 'landed in' by affinity.
Of course, looking here and there, checking everything, flirting etc is fine, but it's not yet practice - i guess most of us have been there (and perhaps for many years) or have many friends like that, and definitely in most cases it doesn't amount to true commitment to Dharma, focus and actual transformative results. Commitment is a powerful thing, and if it comes from within would lead to respect and understanding towards other paths.

beggar

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Re: Shugden and other schools of Buddhsim
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2008, 06:40:35 AM »
Here a quote from one of the greatest Dzogchen Lamas, Patrul Rinpoche, from his (very lamrim) book                   'words of my perfect teacher':

                 AROUSE CONFIDENCE IN THE PRINCIPLE OF CAUSE AND EFFECT
                                FROM THE DEPTHS OF YOUR HEART.


There are definitely distinctions in presentation and understanding in Dzogchen. One could quote some lines by Longchenpa and it would seem that 'nothing matters' all the way; one could quote other lines and it would seem all about karma and everything matters.   
                                             
                                              Guru Rinpoche said:

                                    MY VIEW IS HIGHER THAN THE SKY
                     BUT MY ATTENTION TO ACTIONS IS FINER THAN FLOUR


Distinctions between lineages and different philosophical views are on a subtler level i feel, for which we will have to study and contemplate Manjushri Je Tsongkhapa's teachings more deeply, which is good - after all this is what we're here for.

I think we all agree that all Dharma practice mixed with self-centered notions is
                                       flawed on a hinayana level,
                         fake and ineffective on a mahayana level, and
                            disastrous in tantra/mahamudra/dzogchen.

                    ALL OF BUDDHAS TEACHINGS AIM TO DESTROY SELF-GRASPING

   Praise to all beings who look into the mirror of truth and do the dirty work, wherever, however.
        May we all find the teacher and lineage that inspire us to focus on what is essential.
                                                   
                                                   Atisha said:

                    YOU TIBETANS HAVE A HUNDRED PRACTICES AND NO ATTAINMENTS.
                       WE INDIANS HAVE ONE PRACTICE AND ALL THE ATTAINMENTS.

                              Here's to the cowboys and indians of the global village!
                                                   everybody's, beggar

stefan

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Re: Shugden and other schools of Buddhsim
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2008, 10:40:46 PM »
hallo my dear - sometimes I feel the same way - perhaps we have to develop very strong confidence - Guru is already there - but  ownmind is not enough ready - but will be ready soon - with much joy- blissfully-

peacetimes-peacewakeup- everything with peace peace witheverything

Ensapa

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Re: Shugden and other schools of Buddhsim
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2013, 06:01:36 AM »
Seriously, I don't advice you practise Dorje Shugden along with Nyima Practise. Besides, I was told that our Lineage master Je TsongKha pa has filtered on those teachings that cannot be used. Those "buried teausres" teachings from Nyima cannot be used at all and has no history of lineage passed down all the way from Lord Buddha Shakyamuni. Besides that, the view of emptiness isn't complete and in order to gain enlightment to Buddhahood, we must use the view of Lord Nagajurna and Lord Chandrakriti, as per advice from Lord Manjushri to Lord Tsong Kha Pa. I still advice that it is the best to choose Gelug teachings as the flawless teachings is still preserve here, as prohised, the pure teaching will still remain in Gelug for another 400 years. You can only choose either one of the traditions, not both at the same time. Besides, if you still insist on practsing Dorje Shugden with Nyima practise, I believe Lord Dorje Shugden won't be very happy, as many lamas has been forewarn or punished if still insist.

Oh lord.

There's nothing wrong with doing Nyingma teachings with Dorje Shugden - provided if you have permission from the Guru who granted you the Dorje Shugden practice. There are Nyingma termas of Dorje Shugden out there and there are Nyingma practitioners that do practice Dorje Shugden. It is when you make statements like these that make Dorje Shugden look sectarian when he is not. Je Tsongkhapa's teachings are perfect as they are but if you try to dilute them they will be harmful to your Dharma practice. This does not mean that Nyingma or Kagyu is wrong, just that you should not mix them together with Gelug. Taking up Dzogchen after you've received the Ganden Nyegnu set of teachings is like throwing a wrench into your car engine and then starting it up -  it can cause irreparable damage to your Dharma practice. You can still love Guru Rinpoche and Dzogchen, but your core practice must always be Je Tsongkhapa's teachings. The Lamas who got forewarned or punished were leading a very bad example to others and potentially cause a lot of confusion with their selfish action of merging their interests with the spreading the Dharma and has nothing to do with them 'mixing' the teachings. It is also this part that many people tend to be confused about.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Shugden and other schools of Buddhism
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2015, 09:05:39 AM »
Dear friends,
thank you very much for your contributions on this super important subject. Especially taken i am with Alexis' thoughtful explanations on the various levels of commitment and how Dharmapala can help us within each of these. I feel, especially for new and future friends, it is really essential to understand and gain faith first that in the enlightened mind there can be not even the concept of sectarianism or prejudice. From this viewpoint, any enlightened Dharma guardian's compassionate actions of protecting (against what would cause us and others harm) and nurturing (what benefits all) can be much more easily understood. I definitely believe that if Dharmapala's all-seeing wisdom eye perceives that someone has an auspicious deep connection with any of the other schools he will guide them there. By the way, don't think that only Gelukpas propitiate Dorje Shugden, or believe in fairy tales he and Guru Rinpoche are antagonistic etc. The biographies of Tromo Geshe Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang etc really say it all - how one can be totally devoted to one's own lineage, while being friends with and supportive of all others. May we emulate their holy example always!
What Alexis describes about looking here and there before committing is the same as with taking refuge and entering a Guru-disciple relationship. We can check as long as we want; once we have been so fortunate as to connect with an authentic teacher we are smart to focus on his direct advice which is what makes this relationship so precious, along with linking up with the blessing transmission of her or his entire lineage. The effect -the potential of attainments gained -is simply a million times stronger than if we keep following our deluded perceptions of greener grass everywhere except where we are. And if we do proceed on this path and promise to commit to it and serve it, we'll definitely get very fierce reprimands from our Lama if we get distracted, lose focus and flirt with  'easier' (until we commit...)paths who are all hallucinated by our self-grasping mind anyway. Because our Lama is jealous or out to punish us? Certainly not! Seeing our potential to benefit through our commitment and foreseeing the negative consequences of reverting to samsaric modes, losing focus etc, they will try with all their heart and might to protect us from... ourselves.
The teachings benefit beings according to their dispositions; it is not a matter of declaring that prasangika madhyamaka is the most sublime view, and commanding everyone to follow it. Great holders of this view have taught lesser views all their lives because these accorded with their students capability of understanding. By nurturing this, they prepared them to progress to a higher level eventually. Jowo Atisha was often called the 'refuge Lama'; he didn't mind at all... Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche was often called 'Lamrim Lama' by people who thought this was all he could teach... well, the joke's on them! Great Dzogchen and Mahamudra masters teach about karma and compassion all their lives, and never even mention these big words we like to throw around so casually. In times such as we live in, if we can be mindful of karma and unshakable in Guru devotion while aspiring to the highest, we blessed indeed.
Finally, if one feels strong devotion to Dorje Shugden without 'rational' explanation and without being with a teacher, this does seem a strong indication that one has an auspicious karmic connection with Manjushri Je Tsongkhapa's tradition, and it would be definitely worth praying for it to manifest outwardly. May you be blessed by meeting your Lama soon, Contentment, and may you see, hear and think of only a perfect Buddha when you do.
yours, beggar

Many times I have also been asked if one can propitiates to Dorje Shugden if he/she is from another faith, in my encounters, a couple were Christians and a Hindu.

A Protector is a part of our practice in whatever religion, who helps us to follow the path of the Dharma or scriptures, as such I believe that if you have the infinity to Dorje Shugden, an enlightened Buddha, there is no harm in propitiating Him and in His great compassion with always help the sincere and wholehearted person.