Interesting feedback on western Dorje Shugden practitioners

[dondrup]

We can see until the present moment, much have been done to lift the ban.  But it is still not enough.  There are many groups working in their own unique ways to help lift the ban.  There must be greater unity and synergy as mentioned by Ensapa of all Western and Eastern DS practitioners.  Unity is strength.  Only through the combined force of every single DS practitioners in the World, working in harmony, with a single goal, can the ban be lifted sooner.  There must be a well-thought-out global strategy or plan to lift the ban on DS.  Would this global strategy or plan be possible and workable?  Perhaps contributors in this forum can come up with suggestions on how this global strategy or plan can be implemented? 

Some thoughts in my mind:

Establish a global website with a single goal on lifting the ban. 
Get all the DS groups in the World today together to support the above-mentioned website.
Petition all the DS practitioners as well as anyone including organisations who support the lift of the ban to join the global cause.
This website will provide the latest updates on the work to lift the ban.
 

[Aurore]

I think she is talking about us Westerners here and those non-Tibetans who are trying to help lift the ban. Well, at least there is action and not just talk.

As much as I think it's true that we Westerners will not completely understand what the Tibetans are going through, it sounded to me like she is rather in this state of wanting to vent, indulging in self-pity and bitterness. Shugden is not owned by Tibetans. Dorje Shugden is for everyone and anyone. Accept the karma and move on already.

The damaging part is not done by westerners whether they are Shugden followers or pro Dalai Lama followers. I came across many pro Dalai Lama Tibetan fanatics on facebook being rude to me for practicing Shugden. Misunderstandings between Shugden followers and non-followers exist in non-Tibetan community, excuse me!

[Ensapa]

We can see until the present moment, much have been done to lift the ban.  But it is still not enough.  There are many groups working in their own unique ways to help lift the ban.  There must be greater unity and synergy as mentioned by Ensapa of all Western and Eastern DS practitioners.  Unity is strength.  Only through the combined force of every single DS practitioners in the World, working in harmony, with a single goal, can the ban be lifted sooner.  There must be a well-thought-out global strategy or plan to lift the ban on DS.  Would this global strategy or plan be possible and workable?  Perhaps contributors in this forum can come up with suggestions on how this global strategy or plan can be implemented? 

Some thoughts in my mind:

Establish a global website with a single goal on lifting the ban. 
Get all the DS groups in the World today together to support the above-mentioned website.
Petition all the DS practitioners as well as anyone including organisations who support the lift of the ban to join the global cause.
This website will provide the latest updates on the work to lift the ban.

This website will be the only sole guiding light that will help lift the ban and end it sooner than expected because we do not focus on the politics that permeate the whole issue in the first place and focus solely on promoting Dorje Shugden as it is without any political undertones that tend to affect issues and articles that surround Dorje Shugden...and this makes the whole thing more focused.

Over time, there will be more and more groups and people that will demand that the ban be lifted. It would not just be a few demonstrations alone. there will be a lot more people and groups that will pressure HHDL and the CTA to remove this unethical ban because people who practice it will have results and there will be more and more people and more and more movements that would be in favor of Dorje Shugden.

Yes, we have some self professed crusaders that are in HHDL's camp that are extremely rude and in your face to us, and they create a lot of problems and become the Lama police for many high lamas out there and declaring that they are bad because they practice Dorje Shugden..but do we want to stoop down to their level? As they say, the low people drag you down to their level and then beat you with their experience...

If we show the qualities that are opposite of what they display, I believe that we will garner more supporters and more positive people. There isnt much room for any of us to be hostile to each other or to put down each other's ideas. I dont think that the ban will be lifted if we start mud slinging at each other but it can be lifted if we show a gracious attitude towards HHDL and his supporters....

[JD]

May the online locations, teachers, centres and institutions multiply and become countless, and the practice benefit huge numbers. It is a blessing to have the resources, encouragement and support that this website brings to practitioners in Asia and around the world.

May our words and actions always be calm and only beneficial towards all who are still suffering harassment and discrimination.

[beggar]

Yes, certainly interesting, and many points there to consider:

Firstly, I think in our zeal to save the world, many of us have the best of intentions but not quite good enough to discern what is really needed or what might really be helpful. Colonisation is all about this - a dominant nation going into another country and imposing their values / mores / behaviours and religion on the local people, all done quite possibly with that noble thought that they are "saving" these local people, helping to "civilise" them. This is what we're all doing really, to some degree or other - the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

Secondly, reading this girl's posting only reaffirms to me again that while we want to run out guns blazing against the ban, we're inevitably going to burn someone, somehow along the way - is it really worth it, just to make a point? Just to have our voices heard? All our zealous championing becomes insensitive after a while - we think we know what other people need, having no concept of how they really live or how vastly different their backgrounds are to ours. Also, in protesting against one Lama or one group (the Dalai Lama in this case), you will 100% completely totally most definitely upset someone and their practice, shake their faith, hurt them by what you are saying about their Lama and their spiritual choices. We forget, perhaps, that not all non-Shugdenpas are bad. In protesting or using such "active" means to protest the ban, we risk turning into the very people we hate. We become the mirror image to all those anti-shugden people who run riot attacking Shugdenpas.

So (and I have said this countless times), I still hold firm that the approach of this website has been best in preserving the lineage while "protesting" the ban in the most peaceful, non-intrusive way. The effects may take longer, and our voices may not be belted out as loudly as it would be over a loudspeaker (or in a mass demonstration), but it is a steady voice. It is peaceful. This voice "protests" the ban not by speaking about how bad the ban is but by speaking about how truly good the Dharmapala, his practice and his practitioners really are. There is the promotion and education of his history, the Lamas who practice him, the benefits he brings to people and stories of how doing his practice has helped people tremendous. By all this positivity - like a clear lake - the badness, like a drop of ink, is diluted and drowned out.

In this way too, you don't presume to know what others are going through and try to speak for them. You also don't upset anyone's individual practice or their relationship with their teachers and spiritual communities. Instead, bring positivity and hope to the situation, directing people to look at the good of the issue rather than the bad. This works, all round, I think, to educate, inspire, give hope and lend support to practitioners without making assumptions about what they do or don't need.

A round of applause for the website folks again for showing us this alternative uplifting, positive way of responding to the many issues surrounding this practice and the ban.

[Ensapa]

Yes, certainly interesting, and many points there to consider:

Firstly, I think in our zeal to save the world, many of us have the best of intentions but not quite good enough to discern what is really needed or what might really be helpful. Colonisation is all about this - a dominant nation going into another country and imposing their values / mores / behaviours and religion on the local people, all done quite possibly with that noble thought that they are "saving" these local people, helping to "civilise" them. This is what we're all doing really, to some degree or other - the way to hell is paved with good intentions.

Secondly, reading this girl's posting only reaffirms to me again that while we want to run out guns blazing against the ban, we're inevitably going to burn someone, somehow along the way - is it really worth it, just to make a point? Just to have our voices heard? All our zealous championing becomes insensitive after a while - we think we know what other people need, having no concept of how they really live or how vastly different their backgrounds are to ours. Also, in protesting against one Lama or one group (the Dalai Lama in this case), you will 100% completely totally most definitely upset someone and their practice, shake their faith, hurt them by what you are saying about their Lama and their spiritual choices. We forget, perhaps, that not all non-Shugdenpas are bad. In protesting or using such "active" means to protest the ban, we risk turning into the very people we hate. We become the mirror image to all those anti-shugden people who run riot attacking Shugdenpas.

So (and I have said this countless times), I still hold firm that the approach of this website has been best in preserving the lineage while "protesting" the ban in the most peaceful, non-intrusive way. The effects may take longer, and our voices may not be belted out as loudly as it would be over a loudspeaker (or in a mass demonstration), but it is a steady voice. It is peaceful. This voice "protests" the ban not by speaking about how bad the ban is but by speaking about how truly good the Dharmapala, his practice and his practitioners really are. There is the promotion and education of his history, the Lamas who practice him, the benefits he brings to people and stories of how doing his practice has helped people tremendous. By all this positivity - like a clear lake - the badness, like a drop of ink, is diluted and drowned out.

In this way too, you don't presume to know what others are going through and try to speak for them. You also don't upset anyone's individual practice or their relationship with their teachers and spiritual communities. Instead, bring positivity and hope to the situation, directing people to look at the good of the issue rather than the bad. This works, all round, I think, to educate, inspire, give hope and lend support to practitioners without making assumptions about what they do or don't need.

A round of applause for the website folks again for showing us this alternative uplifting, positive way of responding to the many issues surrounding this practice and the ban.

Thanks so much, Beggar, for your wonderful input on this matter. This is the whole reason why I decided to share this feedback here: because it gives us feedback on whether or not our approach is correct or not correct, whether or not someone suffers as a result of our actions and how are people affected by our choices and decisions, and how can we improve on it and what can we do to minimize causalities.

I have mentioned before that the original feedback is much more harsh and it does point fingers directly on WSS directly (which I have removed as it is not relevant to the content), and even though they are following their Guru's advice, it does not mean that they do not need to take precautions on how to minimize the hurt towards the Tibetan practitioners, and also research to understand the community better.

As much as it is fun and nice to find a figure that we can all focus on our hate on, but in doing that we are no different than FPMT and the other "crusaders" who have nothing better to do than to attack others because they have nothing better to do with their lives. And incidentally, we can all see how much spiritual progress these people have which is close to none...so, yup.

I am aware that on the surface everything looks like it is HHDL's fault for banning Dorje Shugden, but we have to look at everything from the  bigger picture and look at all the odd and contradicting statements that HHDL has been making, as if they are trying to tell us that they do not enjoy doing this. Why else would HHDL keep Samdhong Rinpoche who is a recognized emanation of Dorje Shugden as a close aide? And the contradicting statements on the website....reading between the lines gives us a bigger perspective on things....

[dsdisciple]

Gautama Buddha's advice...

Not sure if this story should be in this thread but thought it was relevant for us all

" Gautama Buddha was insulted once. He was passing by a village, and the villagers were against him and his supporters. There was no way to avoid or go around this village to get to where they needed to go.

It was impossible for the people of this village to comprehend what he was teaching. The people gathered and insulted him very much.

Buddha listened very silently and then he said:

"If you have finished, can I take my leave of you, because I have to reach the other village, and they must be waiting for me.

If you have not finished, then when I return tomorrow morning you can come again tomorrow and finish your job."

One man in the crowd asked, "Have you not heard us? We have been insulting you, abusing you. We have been using all kinds of dirty words, anything that we can find."

Buddha laughed, He said:

"You have come a little late. You should have come 10 years ago. Then I was in the same frame of mind as you are; then I would have replied well. But now this is an opportunity for me to be compassionate, to be meditative.

I am thankful to you that you allowed this opportunity. This is just a test...a Test whether or not I have anything of the negative lurking in my unconscious mind.

And I am happy to declare to you friends, that not even a single shadow of negative has passed through my mind. I have remained utterly blissful, you have not been able to affect me in any way. And I am tremendously happy that you gave me such a great opportunity.

Very few people are as kind as you are."

extracted from a teaching given by Lama Yeshe.

xo

[vajratruth]

I was reading through the blog of a Tibetan girl who stays in Dharamsala (and who blogs about things that sets her off) and I was quite surprised to find this post. It is filled with spelling mistakes tho, but she has a point.

#Tibetan shugden practitioners and western shugden followers belong in two entirely different categories.

Do Tibetan shugden practitioners face stigmatization in Tibetan communities? Hell Yes.
Are there misunderstandings between Tibetan sugden followers and non-followers? Fuck Yes.
Are there antagonistic behaviors on both sides? You better believe it.
Are (often times) white sugden followers the saviors of Tibetan sugden practitioners? NOPE. That’s what they CLAIM!

They claim to be following the Buddha Darma by antagonizing and victimizing an already oppressed group of people, the Tibetans. Further, they claim to put themselves on the same level as Tibetan sugden practitioners. Excuse me, but have you been practicing sugden for centuries in your family history tied in with village practice in Tibet? Um…the answer is NO! Also, you privileged yuppies do NOT live in Exile Tibetan community. So please stop putting yourselves on the same platform as Tibetan sugden practitioners in exile. You guys are NOT the same. You are still a bunch of white yuppies victimizing not only non sugden followers but also riding on the backs of Tibetan sugden followers.

Your idea of practicing the Buddha Darma is the constant joy you get in justifying the ongoing Colonization of Tibet and adding to the collective (practicing and non practicing sugden followers) sufferings of the Tibetan people. We don’t need your “white mans (sick) burden, white man know better” bullocks.

She is angry that certain Dorje Shugden practitioners who are not Tibetan think that they know everything about Dorje Shugden and act in certain ways that end up damaging both sides of the Tibetan community....

It is true that the Shugden-ban is significantly different in effect, within a Tibetan community and outside one. I am ashamed to say that often the daily sufferings of the Shugden-practicing Tibetans is not even at the back of my mind. I protest against the ban because I genuinely wish for everyone to be able to practice this great Protector openly and without persecution but i forget to extend my protest to also be the voice against the poor treatment of those who were and still are oppressed as the result of their refusal to give up the Protector.

It is important to know what the writer meant by our actions "adding to the collective (practicing and non practicing sugden followers) sufferings of the Tibetan people...". Unless she is inferring that outsiders' participation adds fuel to the rift between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners within the Tibetan community. Does anyone know and have any examples of situations where we have made things worst? I don't know. She may have a point but I still feel that the CTA is to blame and it has totally failed in looking after all Tibetans.

They failed in their duty when they imposed and upheld the ban casting aside the constitution that undertook to protect the rights of all Tibetan citizens. They failed by allowing practitioners to suffer as the result of a religious practice. And they are failing today by not making amends.

[Ensapa]

It is true that the Shugden-ban is significantly different in effect, within a Tibetan community and outside one. I am ashamed to say that often the daily sufferings of the Shugden-practicing Tibetans is not even at the back of my mind. I protest against the ban because I genuinely wish for everyone to be able to practice this great Protector openly and without persecution but i forget to extend my protest to also be the voice against the poor treatment of those who were and still are oppressed as the result of their refusal to give up the Protector.

It is important to know what the writer meant by our actions "adding to the collective (practicing and non practicing sugden followers) sufferings of the Tibetan people...". Unless she is inferring that outsiders' participation adds fuel to the rift between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners within the Tibetan community. Does anyone know and have any examples of situations where we have made things worst? I don't know. She may have a point but I still feel that the CTA is to blame and it has totally failed in looking after all Tibetans.

They failed in their duty when they imposed and upheld the ban casting aside the constitution that undertook to protect the rights of all Tibetan citizens. They failed by allowing practitioners to suffer as the result of a religious practice. And they are failing today by not making amends.

I have found other posts in her blog where she complains about white people who went to Dharamsala and acted arrogantly, as if they were Tibetan or as if they were there to save the Tibetans and improve their lifestyle. I have a feeling that she is very insecure about her own culture: first, she lost her country to China and now there are so many white people trying to be Tibetan.

And worse still, most of them show very little understanding of the Tibetan culture but yet try their best to be Tibetan and I could see how it irks her out. And from the description, it does sound that she is a Dorje Shugden practitioner, or at least her family is, and it does irk her out that while she suffers so much, white people "defend" her protector when they dont get the situation.

Cultural differences can bring about a lot of misunderstanding at the end of the day and sometimes it can hurt others in ways that we dont intend to but it can be avoided. The comment shows that she is very insecure of her culture's identity and she is angry at what she perceives to be an attack on her culture  which I am not surprised as she grew up in a settlement as opposed to her own country.

However, feedback is still feedback, and it allows us to see what the real situation is in Dharamsala so that we can plan our next activity with minimal damages to the people around. Perhaps after this we could be more sensitive to the sentiments of the Tibetan practitioners, or even work together with them as can see their approach to this issue and how they deal with it.