Dalai Lama speeches against Shugden toned down & other news

[beggar]

I'm beginning to think this site is moderated for political correctness towards the Dalai Lama.

What part of 'Dorje Shugden is a Chinese spirit, Shugden practitioners beat and kill and they are paid by the Chinese Government' did you think was toned down?  What part of the Dalai Lama's speech, designed to instigate strong feelings of hatred towards Shugden practitioners did you think was toned down?  I didn't see it.  Did I miss a memo?

I also think that TK thinking that the Dalai Lama is offering religious freedom is a bit unrealistic.  As the Dalai Lama said, he instituted A BAN on the practice, so where's the freedom to practice?  The freedom is only 'from the Dalai Lama's mouth' - in reality, Shugden practitioners are still ostracised from their community for not rejecting the practice in accordance with the Dalai Lama's demand to stop practising.

Why are you all Dalai Lama apologists when it is clear that he hasn't changed his stance towards Shugden and will use any public meeting to keep bringing it up, creating more and more disharmony in the Buddhist community?  He's now trying to claim that the Tibetan Government in Exile is being 'infiltrated' by China who also happen to be Dorje Shugden practitioners (that is the inference that is being drawn in this article):

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Tibetan-government-in-exile-fears-Chinese-infiltrations/Article1-597536.aspx

I think you see what you want to see, but what you want to see is not the truth.

Well, of course, it would not be “possible” for the dalai lama to completely stop what he has been saying – he has gone too far to go back and change the tone completely. Yes, what he is saying is still not pleasant but then again, compared to the rhetoric and statement of years past, it simply cannot be denied that he is changing his tune somewhat and has “softened” in the approach: From a hardline, hard-hitting position of “no you must not practice, there will be trouble for you if you do” to “find out for yourself, investigate yourself, decide for yourself” – that is definitely a change.

There’s not a total change but there is SOME CHANGE and I think this is worth some rejoicing.

Please also heed the advice of DSfriend who is only trying to be a true friend to all of us here on this forum. Please do not make general sweeping statements about other forum posters and their views. We are all entitled to them. We respect your views, and hope you can respect ours to; at the very least, agree to disagree instead of always just prodding at each other or putting down others' views.
Thank you.
humbly, beggar

[Big Uncle]

Well, I actually do not think that the Dalai Lama is ever going to come down on his decree against Dorje Shugden. If any apparent soft stance as mentioned in this thread is merely because he is in compliance with warnings to tone down his anti-shugden approach. If the Dalai Lama really wanted to promote Dorje Shugden world-wide and to ensure that his legacy is  to spread it as he has been, he would not relent till his very last breath.

No matter how hard he campaigns against Dorje Shugden, there is no way he will ever be able to wipe out this practice anyway. So his legacy will be to spread Dorje Shugden although very few people will understand or even comprehend this but its effects will be vast. I look forward to the next generation of Lamas like Panchen Rinpoche in China, Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, etc etc take over the lead....

PS: It is really nice to see where Pabongka Rinpoche is already establishing himself in China - the spiritual homeland of his past incarnations when he was tutors to the previous rulers of China - the Qing Emperors.

[DharmaDefender]

I think you see what you want to see, but what you want to see is not the truth

As much as it can be applied to us, it can also be applied to you. Not saying that to be smarmy but the simple fact is that none of us here, including you and me, are enlightened. Therefore our views will always be clouded and deluded. Until we reach a state of such clarity, what you and I believe is not the truth...the truth is the full realisation of emptiness, karma and impermanence.

2. Abbotship of Serpom

Since he stays in China most of the time, to be the abbot of Serpom would incite the ignorant lay ppl living in surrounding camps to say that Serpom is being funded by Chinese Govt which of course is not true and has never been the case. The only way the Tibetan Govt now can incite hatred against the peaceful Dorje Shugden institutions/practitioner is to say they are traitors as they recieve financial support from the Chinese Govt. Silly and ridiculous as it sounds. So out of compassion, His Holiness Kyabje Pabongka declined taking the throne of Serpom as it's first abbot, hence they requested Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche who graciously accepted.

Speaking of not being enlightened, that really is the only way they can incite hatred. It's the same thing people on other forums like Phayul repeat; they accuse you of being on the Chinese payroll, of being a traitor because there's no other way they can get you. It always goes back to me being Communist.

Taking Pabongka Rinpoche as an example we can all aspire towards (since he's really the one who created the causes for all of us to come together in practice), it's sad how many can't be more like him, and they have to win and prove their side is right. A friend told me last night that when you proclaim you're great, it's less fulfilling than when someone tells you you're great. Same thing really - when you keep shouting that your message's the right one, it can sometimes look a little desperate.

That's why I never keep my door open to Jehovah Witnesses

[thor]

I'm beginning to think this site is moderated for political correctness towards the Dalai Lama.

What part of 'Dorje Shugden is a Chinese spirit, Shugden practitioners beat and kill and they are paid by the Chinese Government' did you think was toned down?  What part of the Dalai Lama's speech, designed to instigate strong feelings of hatred towards Shugden practitioners did you think was toned down?  I didn't see it.  Did I miss a memo?

If the Serpom monks themselves are saying that Dalai Lama has toned down his Shugden policy, then I give some weight to that statement. These monks have suffered under Dalai Lama's policy much more than any of us on this forum have. So they would know best if there is a change of tone.

Whether this is because of the legal case or because Dalai Lama is starting a subtle change in his policy, well, only he himself would know. Its good for Shugden practitioners either way. I regret that they took a religious figure to court, i find it disrespectful but it is better than the protests in 2008. Those did not give a good impression of the sangha whereas the court case seems more proper in a secular sense.

I also think that TK thinking that the Dalai Lama is offering religious freedom is a bit unrealistic.  As the Dalai Lama said, he instituted A BAN on the practice, so where's the freedom to practice?  The freedom is only 'from the Dalai Lama's mouth' - in reality, Shugden practitioners are still ostracised from their community for not rejecting the practice in accordance with the Dalai Lama's demand to stop practising.

I agree that Dalai Lama offering religions freedom is rather optimistic. He would look really foolish for turning back on his statement, seeing how much trouble, pain & suffering the ban has caused. Not to mention anger, disbelief, disrespect from global spectators. But a softening of the policy is possible and if Dalai Lama continues to speak in this tone within the lay Tibetan community, perhaps the common man will catch on and give our counterparts relief from the discrimination they are facing.

I write from hope, whether foolish or not, that someday this divide will end and Gelugpa Buddhism can once again unite to be what the great Tsongkhapa envisioned it to be.

[honeydakini]

If the Serpom monks themselves are saying that Dalai Lama has toned down his Shugden policy, then I give some weight to that statement. These monks have suffered under Dalai Lama's policy much more than any of us on this forum have. So they would know best if there is a change of tone.

That's a really good point. I think it's healthier to maintain a more optimistic outlook and find a way to make the situation work in our favour for now, instead of merely to just continue "nay-saying".

It's interesting to note that the Sangha seem to always be far more optimistic and open-minded than us LOL Compare this to the news about the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. Monks from Shar Gaden kept an open mind and were interested/ happy to hear the news, instead of merely pooh-poohing it away. It seems to be something similar in this case, where they are keeping a more open mind to the dalai lama's change in tone. Perhaps we can learn to adopt this positive attitude!

[WisdomBeing]

If the Serpom monks themselves are saying that Dalai Lama has toned down his Shugden policy, then I give some weight to that statement. These monks have suffered under Dalai Lama's policy much more than any of us on this forum have. So they would know best if there is a change of tone.

Whether this is because of the legal case or because Dalai Lama is starting a subtle change in his policy, well, only he himself would know. Its good for Shugden practitioners either way. I regret that they took a religious figure to court, i find it disrespectful but it is better than the protests in 2008. Those did not give a good impression of the sangha whereas the court case seems more proper in a secular sense.

I agree that Dalai Lama offering religions freedom is rather optimistic. He would look really foolish for turning back on his statement, seeing how much trouble, pain & suffering the ban has caused. Not to mention anger, disbelief, disrespect from global spectators. But a softening of the policy is possible and if Dalai Lama continues to speak in this tone within the lay Tibetan community, perhaps the common man will catch on and give our counterparts relief from the discrimination they are facing.

I write from hope, whether foolish or not, that someday this divide will end and Gelugpa Buddhism can once again unite to be what the great Tsongkhapa envisioned it to be.

Hey Duldzin - I'm happy to see another optimist

Thanks for bringing up the point re the softening feedback coming from Serpom Sangha. That's a very good point.

I also agree with you that whether the softening of the Dalai Lama's tone is due to the court case or not, as long as it lessens harm to Shugden practitioners who have been under persecution for so long, i'm sure it's as welcome as spring water in a desert. Especially in the Tibetan refugee communities where Shugden practitioners experience ostracism most acutely.

It'll be interesting to see subsequent public addresses by the Dalai Lama.

Thank you to participants in this forum for keeping us posted!

[Helena]

Everything in good time 

That is what I believe - firmly and strongly.

As I have great faith in my Lama and Protector - I know that Enlightened Beings plan for things to manifest way in advance - like centuries ahead. They have created the causes and planted the seeds from way back then for all the right conditions to ripen at different times.

Even Buddha has hidden many scared and precious objects in different places and prophesized that these will be discovered in due time by certain individuals. No different than when Lama Tsongkhapa discovered the conch shell that was buried by Buddha Shakyamuni and built Gaden in that same place.

And just because we do hold optimistic views and have faith in both Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden does not make us any less of a practitioner or less devoted or less learned.

When it is all said and done, we shall bear witness to the truth. And like WB, I pray that I live to see the day when Dorje Shugden is EVERYWHERE.

[icy]

Thank you for sharing with us this good news.  Is this the beginning of dawn that the Dalai Lama has toned down now on Lord Shugden?  If this good news persists and continues, it could be the beginning of the teaching of Lord Shugden raving like wild fire spreading from people to people, province to province and nation to nation across the globe. Many people will benefit and surely it will catch on in China where there are masses of spiritually hungry people waiting to embrace Lord Shugden. 

Isn’t  this the skillfull method of the Dalai Lama to create publicity and ensuring that Lord Shugden, the most powerful protector of today will strive on and flourish, and be revitalized especially in China?  Yes, I believe Dorje Shugden/Dalai Lama is working  together to spread the dharma although it may not appear so as. prophesized by Trijang Rinpoche.  How profoundly moving these great beings work to benefit numberless beings!

[Mana]

It is our true hope by understanding Dorje Shugden better, it removes the 'faults' of the lineage lamas. By the lineage lamas having no faults as wrongly described by the TGIE, people will gain faith in them and congregate to them for teachings. This is our hope. What prevents people from going to these lineage lamas is that they practice/teach Dorje Shugden. So if Dorje Shugden's practice is made clear, it will exonerate the holy lineage lamas. Then people will not criticize the lineage lamas. The lineage lamas alive today will not be seen as deviant, hence many will flock to recieve teachings from them. Far from being deviant, the lineage lamas are perfect vessels of BuddhaDharma. This website definitely promotes BuddhaDharma via Dorje Shugden.

We are very happy you can make Dorje Shugden well known in the world as it will definitely help the Lineage of Tsongkapa expand in this degenerate age.

Mana

[shugdenprotect]

Thank you for the exciting and happy update! It is wonderful news that the monks at Serpom did not receive ill treatment recently. It is also exciting to hear about Pabongka Rinpoche’s regular visits and teachings to spread pure Dharma understanding and practice in this powerful and influential nation.

In reading the writing, the matter regarding receiving funds from the Chinese government left a strong impression. It is difficult to understand why receiving fund from the Chinese government is so bad that individuals or monasteries who do so would be exposed to harsh criticism and alienation. Should the importance not be on the benefit acceptance of the contribution can cause? In receiving funds from anybody, whether they are a Saint, a murderer, the Chinese government etc., we can cause:

1)   The spread of Dharma so that it will touch more people who have not been touched by Dharma.
2)   The opportunity for the contributor to develop affinity to Dharma and a chance for Dharma understanding and practice to realize.
3) The opportunity for the "bad" people to purify their negative karma and develop the merits to one day practice Dharma. If such judgement and conditions is practiced in Buddhadharma, The Great Milarepa would not have been.

In being selective and judging who is “entitled” to give to the Dharma seem un-Buddhist and unkind. This act in itself is the practice of non-forgiveness and obscuring the growth of Buddhadharma.

[WisdomBeing]

Shugdenprotect, thank you for your sharing re the Chinese government. This is when politics get mixed with religion when it shouldn't be. it is the very judgmental attitude that will destroy our spirituality from within. It's been mentioned on another thread that we should use discriminating wisdom to judge but how can we do that when we don't have discriminating wisdom to start off with.

i remember it being said that Buddhism will eventually be destroyed from within than without - isn't that a scary warning and something we should all take heed to assess if what we are doing will contribute to the Dharma growing or dying.

As Mana says above - by promoting our lineage lamas, people will gain faith in them and thus in the teachings they give, and through promoting Dorje Shugden's practice, our obstacles will clear, Dharma will grow and people will become happier and more at peace.

Everything is interlinked.

[Helena]

Well said, ShugdenProtect & WB!

Everyone deserves the Dharma and it does mean, every single one!

Because the reason Bodhisattvas and Buddhas emanate is to free every sentient being from samsara. Therefore, as long as one person is still in samsara, they have to come back and help them.

In this respect, everyone who can make a connection with the Three Jewels in whatever way or form is something to rejoice about.

YES, EVERYTHING WE DO WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THE GROWTH OF DHARMA OR THE DEATH OF DHARMA.

Hence, think very deeply and wisely about one's own actions of body, speech and mind.

And there is no need for long justifications and explanations because the results will reveal the truth.

[Gabby Potter]

The Dorje Shugden ban issue has been brought to the limelight and it's all because of His Holiness's hard work. His Holiness is so compassionate that He is willing put Himself through all these contradictions and issues. Some people may not look at it this way but it doesn't matter, its freedom of thought. May the ban be lifted very quickly and smoothly.

[Matibhadra]

The Dorje Shugden ban issue has been brought to the limelight and it's all because of His Holiness's hard work.

In the same way, the massacre of children in Africa has been brought to the limelight, and it's all because of Boko Haram extremists' hard work.

Also, the crucifixion of Christians in Iraq has been brought to the limelight, and it's all because of Islamic State terrorists' hard work.

Your main concern is with limelight, and you rejoice on the suffering of others as long as it brings 15 minutes of fame to your religious brand.

Everyday one can find on the newspapers people who commit the most heinous crimes such as murdering just in order to achieve some flickering fame, and to appear in the news.

Such is the power of the eight worldly concerns, which control the mind of the foolish. Such people are controlled by their primitive, compulsive need to catch the attention of others.

Therefore, you are just projecting your own unresolved psychological deficiencies on to a social-religious issue, transferring to the outside what you have not been able to resolve inside.

His Holiness is so compassionate that He is willing put Himself through all these contradictions and issues.

This is like saying that a murderer is so compassionate to put himself through many social and legal problems in order to benefit his victims with their murdering. According to you, crime is a compassionate activity.

Some people may not look at it this way but it doesn't matter, its freedom of thought.

Right, as much as being under the power of the eight worldy concerns as you are is a case of enslavement of thought.

May the ban be lifted very quickly and smoothly.

Why so? Wasn't it the act of a great mahasiddha?