Lama Zopa says it's shameful

[jessicajameson]

Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:

"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."

Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.


---------------------------------------------

The above quoted from Wisdom Being from another thread: (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=744.0). I think it is very interesting that Lama Zopa seems 'contradictory' (sorry) in his stance. Dalai Lama says that Trijang Rinpoche is a great and realized master, yet he made a mistake with the Dorje Shugden proliferation. Then Trijang Rinpoche doesn't sound great??  Here Lama Zopa says Trijang Rinpoche shouldn't be hidden away but Lama Zopa is 'against' Dorje Shugden.  Sounds like the shoe is not fitting. Much underlying meaning.

TK

This is a little confusing.

What Lama Zopa says above makes sense in that, it's shameful if the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche is cast aside like there's something wrong with him... but then again, it's through the very actions of Lama Zopa's entire organization that created those very conditions!

Lama Zopa engaged in the Dorje Shugden practice until his Guru, Lama Yeshe, passed away in the early 1980s. As a lay person who can not comprehend the sort of decisions made by high lamas, how would a student of Lama Zopa interpret that move?

Should they "think bigger" and see Lama Zopa's decision as a move to create more awareness on the DS issue, or should they follow their guru's advice and not practice Dorje Shugden?

As an outsider, I interpret what Lama Zopa says as a glimmer of hope (or rather a hint), "his (Trijang Rinpoche's) present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light"...

... if Lama Zopa is part of the bigger picture, he may seem like he isn't doing a good job thus far to help his Guru (of the previous incarnation) achieve this potential. However, those who seek a teacher who practices Dorje Shugden when the ban is lifted, Trijang Rinpoche will be the perfect choice.

One of the highest lamas in the Buddhist world, Trijang Rinpoche is known as a strong DS practitioner, who's previous life was the current Dalai Lama's philosophical assistant and personal tutor for 50 years. He has a center in Vermont (West) and is a throneholder in Shar Gaden (East).

Is what Lama Zopa says a premonition?

[Positive Change]

Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:

"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."

Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.


---------------------------------------------

The above quoted from Wisdom Being from another thread: (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=744.0). I think it is very interesting that Lama Zopa seems 'contradictory' (sorry) in his stance. Dalai Lama says that Trijang Rinpoche is a great and realized master, yet he made a mistake with the Dorje Shugden proliferation. Then Trijang Rinpoche doesn't sound great??  Here Lama Zopa says Trijang Rinpoche shouldn't be hidden away but Lama Zopa is 'against' Dorje Shugden.  Sounds like the shoe is not fitting. Much underlying meaning.

TK

This is a little confusing.

What Lama Zopa says above makes sense in that, it's shameful if the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche is cast aside like there's something wrong with him... but then again, it's through the very actions of Lama Zopa's entire organization that created those very conditions!

Lama Zopa engaged in the Dorje Shugden practice until his Guru, Lama Yeshe, passed away in the early 1980s. As a lay person who can not comprehend the sort of decisions made by high lamas, how would a student of Lama Zopa interpret that move?

Should they "think bigger" and see Lama Zopa's decision as a move to create more awareness on the DS issue, or should they follow their guru's advice and not practice Dorje Shugden?

As an outsider, I interpret what Lama Zopa says as a glimmer of hope (or rather a hint), "his (Trijang Rinpoche's) present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light"...

... if Lama Zopa is part of the bigger picture, he may seem like he isn't doing a good job thus far to help his Guru (of the previous incarnation) achieve this potential. However, those who seek a teacher who practices Dorje Shugden when the ban is lifted, Trijang Rinpoche will be the perfect choice.

One of the highest lamas in the Buddhist world, Trijang Rinpoche is known as a strong DS practitioner, who's previous life was the current Dalai Lama's philosophical assistant and personal tutor for 50 years. He has a center in Vermont (West) and is a throneholder in Shar Gaden (East).

Is what Lama Zopa says a premonition?

Without a doubt Jessica Jameson... I think it is even foresight. Who are we to question the thoughts and actions of such attained beings. Surely we lay people with our righteousness and know it all attitude pales in comparison to such holy beings.

But it is sometimes through contradictions and confusion that is the most effective way in these degenerate times. Why else would tabloids flourish where serious and regular newspapers seem to fall by the wayside. Everybody is looking for sensationalism and what better way than to create a contradictory hype to further highlight the issue.

The ban is not something to take lightly but at the same time, without the ban, Dorje Shugden's practice and "popularity" could not have spread so far and wide and as quickly.... don't you think? Just my two pence worth!

[Ensapa]

This is a little confusing.

What Lama Zopa says above makes sense in that, it's shameful if the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche is cast aside like there's something wrong with him... but then again, it's through the very actions of Lama Zopa's entire organization that created those very conditions!
I would not be too quick to blame Lama Zopa for creating this, it is merely the acts of a few undharmic students that was in the Dharma center for purposes other than Dharma. Lama Zopa gave very specific instructions to not despise DS or any DS lamas, but again we see people being selective over the Lama's instructions. Why is this? Did nobody taught them the importance of not being selective with the Guru's instructions?

Lama Zopa engaged in the Dorje Shugden practice until his Guru, Lama Yeshe, passed away in the early 1980s. As a lay person who can not comprehend the sort of decisions made by high lamas, how would a student of Lama Zopa interpret that move?
Perhaps, his students were under the impression that the Dalai Lama can override Lama Zopa, or that adherence to the Dalai Lama was more important than adhering to Lama Yeshe even if it means breaking their samaya and creating the causes never to see the Guru again. Perhaps, they want only the highest and best lama to be their teacher(The Dalai Lama)?

Should they "think bigger" and see Lama Zopa's decision as a move to create more awareness on the DS issue, or should they follow their guru's advice and not practice Dorje Shugden?
Why would they want to think bigger since they can interpret the smaller picture in accordance to their comfort zones and towards their negative habituations and tendencies? People find it easier to just follow an authoritative figure, or give in to their desire to express their insecurities by putting down another. So why see the bigger picture which takes more effort and goes against those tendencies?

As an outsider, I interpret what Lama Zopa says as a glimmer of hope (or rather a hint), "his (Trijang Rinpoche's) present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light"...
Trijang Rinpoche definitely has the potential and ability to spread that far and wide, but with the ban in place and fanatics vying for his life and giving him obstacles, he cannot manifest that way due to our negative karma. If you come to think of it, it is not Trijang Rinpoche's loss that he cannot manifest in that way, but the loss of all the people in this world that they do not have the merits to receive Dharma from such a highly accomplished being.

... if Lama Zopa is part of the bigger picture, he may seem like he isn't doing a good job thus far to help his Guru (of the previous incarnation) achieve this potential. However, those who seek a teacher who practices Dorje Shugden when the ban is lifted, Trijang Rinpoche will be the perfect choice.
Lama Osel will probably find other ways to benefit other groups of people which are not from FPMT. He is a high lama in his own right and he will find other ways to benefit others. Just not through FPMT anymore. Broken samaya is not exactly something that will bring a Lama back.
One of the highest lamas in the Buddhist world, Trijang Rinpoche is known as a strong DS practitioner, who's previous life was the current Dalai Lama's philosophical assistant and personal tutor for 50 years. He has a center in Vermont (West) and is a throneholder in Shar Gaden (East).

Is what Lama Zopa says a premonition?
Trijang Rinpoche himself has also predicted what will happen, so Lama Zopa is merely repeating/reaffirming it.

In brief, Lama Zopa's reason for making that statement is to remind everybody that he is on Trijang Rinpoche's side. He is not deserting his Gurus because Dalai Lama said so. His students should do and think the same way too. But alas -- people will always do only what they want, and not what the Guru tells them to. I feel that this statement is also a live teaching by Lama Zopa on how to handle situations like these as well. Following the Lama's example is better than simply reading up on them.

[Tenzin Malgyur]

I agree with you, positive change. We should not take this ban on the surface value. To me, I think it is a perfectly mastered strategy to spread Dorje Shugden's practice to the whole wide world. I believe many have learnt of Dorje Shugden this way. I was introduced to this web site by an anti shugden! From the article, I have seen how Lama Zopa is so devoted to his guru and not saying his teacher is wrong. Maybe his students should stop condenming Shugden practitioners?

[Ensapa]

It's not surprising that the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama don't have a Guru-Disciple relationship anymore.  If this 14th Dalai Lama really were the incarnation of the 5th, the 5th Dalai Lama showed his Guru Panchen Losang Chogyan so much disrespect and created a lot of inauspiciousness, for example not listening to him and getting more involved in politics and not even attending his funeral rites but sending a representative instead. Also, remember that Panchen Losang Chogyan was also the Guru of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who was the 5th's enemy due to the high regard he was held in for his spiritual attainments.

This is an interesting angle as according to Glenn Mullin's account of the 5th Dalai Lama's biography, with Glenn pointing the blame at Sanggye Gyatso, the main attendant of the 5th Dalai Lama for inciting the war. The 5th Dalai Lama was very against the whole political thing between the Dzungzars and the Tibetans, but Sanggye Gyatso went ahead anyway and the 5th Dalai Lama had no choice but take on the role as the political leader as well. What you mention does however, give an interesting perspective to things.

These days, 14th Dalai Lama is also not really interested in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition but is encouraging people to take teachings from other traditions in the name of non-sectarianism as he has done himself. However, I think the main reason why there's no Guru-Disciple relation is quite simply that the 14th Dalai Lama is not in the same continuum as the previous Dalai Lamas, so there's no karmic connection with the Panchen Lama.  In short, I believe the story told in 'Ocean of Truth Explained' that the Reting Rinpoche chose a false Dalai Lama which perfectly explains why things have turned out as disastrously as they have for the Gelugpa tradition.
As the Dalai Lama and as the leader of the Tibetans, the Dalai Lama must do whatever it takes to unite the people of Tibet so that they do not create more internal disharmony among themselves and selfdestruct. That I understand. But to use Dorje Shugden as the sacrifice, it is a huge and unnecessary sacrifice for the unity of Tibet. And no, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with Reting Rinpoche choosing a fake Dalai Lama, because that would contradict with Pabongkha Rinpoche's secretary had said about him: that Reting Rinpoche is a very highly attained master.

"When the Chinese arrived in Chamdo a few years later, Gyatolog, Phabonka Rinpochey's secretary and compiler of his famous Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand and other collected works, told me,

'One of the main causes of the Chinese coming here was the destruction of Reting Monastery, the first seat of the Kadampa. This act of war against Avalokiteshvara's abode exhausted in a few moments as much common merit as accumulated by the Buddhist doctrine's shining in Tibet for a hundred years. Now, things will become very difficult for Avalokiteshvara.'"

Sometimes, I wonder if the inability for CTA and HHDL to make any kind of connection to the Panchen Lama has anything to do with the whole Dorje Shugden ban. It is well known that one of the Panchen Lamas made a mistake by waging a war against Dorje Shugden and faced a huge amount of obstacles due to the force of his negative karma but repented and everything was okay, thanks to Pabongkha Rinpoche's kindness in advicing him. This was highlighted in the Yellow Book.

THE PANCHEN LAMAS
All knowing Losang Palden Choekyi Dakpa was the lord of the Doctrine
and from a very young age proved himself as an eminent scholar. He thus
had great potential to serve the Dharma and sentient beings. But he did not
make the flawless and well established teachings of the Dharma Raja Lama
Tsongkhapa as his principal practice. But instead he studied many treasure
texts of Nyingma order and did meditation on those teachings. These were
mentioned in his autobiography. Dorjee Shugden repeatedly asked him not
to do that. He got annoyed with the deity and performed a wrathful and
despicable ritual to burn it. Along with other ingredients he put a thanka of
deity in the fire. But the fire could not consume the thanka. Then he took
out the thanka and put it under the steps of his door in Tashi Lhunpo.
Because of those actions, the Panchen Rinpoche became ill and eventually
passed away in the water-sheep year of the 15th rapjung when he was
only thirty years of age. In this way the Panchen Rinpoche was
unsuccessful in his Dharma propagation deeds.
His successor, Panchen losang Thubten Choekyi Nyima Gelek Namgyal too
faced a great deal of problems (as a consequence). Because of
misunderstanding between his monastery and the Tibetan Government, he
had to escape to Mongolia. Later he wished to come back to U- Tsang, but
there were unsurmountable hurdles and he could not succeed. At the age of
fifty five, in the year fire-ox, he passed away in Kyigudo. A year before he
passed away, Je Phaphongkha Rinpoche Dechen Nyingpo came to pay his
respects. During that meeting, the Panchen Rinpoche told Phaphongkha
Rinpoche that since Phaphongkha Rinpoche was the incarnation of Lodo
Balpa, the Tashi Lhunpo monastery naturally had respect and faith in him
The Panchen Rinpoche asked him to give teachings and also asked him to
take out the thanka of Shugden deity which was buried by the previous
Panchen Rinpoche. In accordance with the instructions of the Panchen
Rinpoche, Je phaphongkha went to Tashi Lhunpo monastery in the year of
iron-dragon of the 16th rapjung. There he gave many religious sermons
including the lamrim teachings. He also took out the thanka of the
Shugden deity and put it in a shrine in the Tashi Lhunpo and worshipped
it. Phaphongkha Rinpoche composed a text which was a kind of agreement
and understanding between the monastery and the deity.
The next Panchen Rinpoche, Panchen Losang Thinley Lhundup Choekyi
Gyaltsen was born in Amdo. He displayed various remarkable deeds which
were clear signals of his greatness. When he came to U-Tsang, certain
impediments delayed his enthronement. Soon after his arrival to Tashi hunpo, he composed a prayer to Dorjee Shugden which helped creating
harmony between the deity and the Panchen Rinpoche. However, later
things changed. There was a statue of Shugden in a shrine in the palace.
When it was seen by the spiritual tutor of the Panchen Rinpoche, Yongzin
Kachen Ang Nyima, he told one of the attendants to take out the devil's
statue from there. When it was referred to the Panchen Rinpoche, he told
the attendant to keep it where the teacher could not see. The tutor disliked
Shugden and often told the Panchen Rinpoche that they practice pure
kadampa tradition and that if he sought many deities, it could ruin him.
The tutor banned the usual practice of propitiating Gyalchen Shugden at
Tashi Lhunpo and the oracle karma, too, was banned from invoking the
deity. The special invocation during the new year was also banned. Since
then many bad omen occurred one after the other. A battle broke between
the Shikatse soldiers and the Tashi Lhunpo subjects. The Tutor Ang Nyima
himself fell from his horse two times. Several ominous incidents happened
during the opening ceremony of the new palace, Dechen Phodrang.
Because of these, they had to restore the practice of worshipping Gyalchen
Shugden. On the invitation of China, the Panchen Rinpoche left for China
in the wood-horse year. Soon after the Panchen Rinpoche had departed
from Tsang, unprecedented flood rushed from Gyaltse. The flooding totally
washed away Kunkyobling, the main residential complex for many
Panchen Lamas. Yongzin Ang Nyima could not return home and finally
succumbed to an insect bite. Because the Panchen Rinpoche did not
practice a pure philosophical tenet, unending disasters followed one after
the other.

[dsiluvu]

Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:

"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."

Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.


---------------------------------------------

The above quoted from Wisdom Being from another thread: (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=744.0). I think it is very interesting that Lama Zopa seems 'contradictory' (sorry) in his stance. Dalai Lama says that Trijang Rinpoche is a great and realized master, yet he made a mistake with the Dorje Shugden proliferation. Then Trijang Rinpoche doesn't sound great??  Here Lama Zopa says Trijang Rinpoche shouldn't be hidden away but Lama Zopa is 'against' Dorje Shugden.  Sounds like the shoe is not fitting. Much underlying meaning.

TK

This is a little confusing.

What Lama Zopa says above makes sense in that, it's shameful if the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche is cast aside like there's something wrong with him... but then again, it's through the very actions of Lama Zopa's entire organization that created those very conditions!

I believe it is more so the "students" who are not close to Lama Zopa who end up taking matters in to their own hands and making themselves the "religious police"! Indeed this is pure arrogance and shameful!!! We often see this happening with Lama's with many students and many centers scattered everywhere around the world unfortunately because the Lama's do not deal directly with them on a regular basis and they are left to their own devices unless the center is so well organised with proper sangha as head and the sanghas are real practitioners. But then again I heard certain branches of FPMT, the students treat sangha very badly as well.  Sad and shameful for them

Lama Zopa engaged in the Dorje Shugden practice until his Guru, Lama Yeshe, passed away in the early 1980s. As a lay person who can not comprehend the sort of decisions made by high lamas, how would a student of Lama Zopa interpret that move?

Hence this is definitely hard unless Lama Zopa is constant with his students from all around the world. So by right it is up to the Changzo or Lama Zopa's right hand man to actually reiterate the importance of remaining Dharmic and polite even though you do not practice Dorje Shugden and this should be carried out by senior or heads of each center so that it is stressed clearly to students why they should not do this way for it is not very Buddhist!

Should they "think bigger" and see Lama Zopa's decision as a move to create more awareness on the DS issue, or should they follow their guru's advice and not practice Dorje Shugden?

I think they should follow their Guru (who is one with Buddha Vajradhara) but at the same time watch their tongues and behavior always to show humility likened to what Lama Tsongkhapa taught us!

As an outsider, I interpret what Lama Zopa says as a glimmer of hope (or rather a hint), "his (Trijang Rinpoche's) present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light"...

... if Lama Zopa is part of the bigger picture, he may seem like he isn't doing a good job thus far to help his Guru (of the previous incarnation) achieve this potential. However, those who seek a teacher who practices Dorje Shugden when the ban is lifted, Trijang Rinpoche will be the perfect choice.

This is without a doubt Jessica! And I think Lama Zopa realizes this hence the statement he made above! Imagine those who stayed loyal and those who remained patient and did not criticize... they have the bigger potential to see this light of day. 

One of the highest lamas in the Buddhist world, Trijang Rinpoche is known as a strong DS practitioner, who's previous life was the current Dalai Lama's philosophical assistant and personal tutor for 50 years. He has a center in Vermont (West) and is a throneholder in Shar Gaden (East).

And to all those who criticized they will also see the light of day when it happens but will they have enough merits to realize their mistakes and repair their samaya... that would be the scary bit! Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Lama Zopa fell ill and Osel Hita is where he is now, no where near coming back as FPMT root Guru

Is what Lama Zopa says a premonition?

Probably so 

[Ensapa]

I believe it is more so the "students" who are not close to Lama Zopa who end up taking matters in to their own hands and making themselves the "religious police"! Indeed this is pure arrogance and shameful!!! We often see this happening with Lama's with many students and many centers scattered everywhere around the world unfortunately because the Lama's do not deal directly with them on a regular basis and they are left to their own devices unless the center is so well organised with proper sangha as head and the sanghas are real practitioners. But then again I heard certain branches of FPMT, the students treat sangha very badly as well.  Sad and shameful for them
At this day and age, we have to accept the fact that there are people in the Dharma center who are either misguided or deluded, or who just wants to use the Dharma center to increase their delusions of grandeur. The fact that they carelessly transgress Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa's will shows that they are not Dharma practitioners at all, but are merely around to use the Dharma for their own agenda.

Hence this is definitely hard unless Lama Zopa is constant with his students from all around the world. So by right it is up to the Changzo or Lama Zopa's right hand man to actually reiterate the importance of remaining Dharmic and polite even though you do not practice Dorje Shugden and this should be carried out by senior or heads of each center so that it is stressed clearly to students why they should not do this way for it is not very Buddhist!
I doubt that the people running the center are even remotely related to Lama Zopa except in name anyway. If they were, they would have known that Lama Zopa is a DS Lama, and he is just asking Dorje Shugden Lamas to not come to FPMT out of respect to the Dalai Lama. Students who misinterpret that and go against their Lama's will, will cause the Guru to part from them. Or they drop out from the Dharma for good.

I think they should follow their Guru (who is one with Buddha Vajradhara) but at the same time watch their tongues and behavior always to show humility likened to what Lama Tsongkhapa taught us!
They werent there for Dharma in the first place. They just wanted to be part of something to make up for their failures in life.

This is without a doubt Jessica! And I think Lama Zopa realizes this hence the statement he made above! Imagine those who stayed loyal and those who remained patient and did not criticize... they have the bigger potential to see this light of day. 
This shows that those in FPMT centers that claim to be his students are not students at all. If they would, they would follow the Guru's instructions without their own interpretations.

And to all those who criticized they will also see the light of day when it happens but will they have enough merits to realize their mistakes and repair their samaya... that would be the scary bit! Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Lama Zopa fell ill and Osel Hita is where he is now, no where near coming back as FPMT root Guru
At this juncture and at the rate of broken samaya from misrepresenting the Guru alone, Lama Zopa will leave FPMT and they will slowly degenerate and left to their own devices. I am not surprised if Lama Zopa commands Kopan to no longer contact FPMT, and then tells everyone that he has decided to cut off all relations with FPMT centers one day. He is being dragged down by the broken samayas that are the FPMT.

Lama Zopa is a great mahasiddha, and he always will be irregardless of how his students misrepresent him or give him a bad name. He cannot say he is a DS Lama directly, but he can release a lot of hints such as him going to Trijang Rinpoche's stupa and so on to indicate. Students who know of Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa's history will not dare to do anything that will contradict their Guru's teachings and practices, those who do just want to be under a big lama and a big center and not really for Dharma practice.

[diablo1974]

There are always people who are for or against Buddhadharma. And i do not wish to speculate what these high lamas are thinking.  What they have said might be real or might be for higher meaning and motives. I personally do not know. I think its not constructive to speculate and only time will tell. Will it take forever? i dont know... DS.com has been around for sometimes, and i guess CTA people spied and collect information from here too. They might also carryon this tug of war with the DS issue or eventually DS will balance the vAjrayana tradition especially Gelug.  If we continue to see increase in DS centres around the world, its something hopeful.

[Manjushri]

A thought just struck me as to the current Lama Osel, who's a recognized reincarnation of Lama Yeshe. The immaculate Lama Yeshe did wonders in his previous life and now his current incarnation, Lama Osel, has taken up on being a film student, and doesn't have much (or anything at all) to do with FPMT. Maybe Lama Osel has the ability to spread Dharma far and wide as well.

With regards to Trijang Rinpoche, HHDL did mention that no one can practise DS except for Trijang Rinpoche. Therefore I take it as he may very well still be practising DS. Hence, with Lama Zopa's last sentence about the current Trijang Rinpoche being able to spread Dharma to the East and West like the rising sun spreads light, does it mean that Trijang Rinpoche, if taken care of properly, will be able to spread DS practises pervasive throughout the lands of the West and East? In a very twisted way, Lama Zopa is promoting DS through his speech about Trijang Rinpoche.. how contradictory yet the wisdom and far-sightedness of a high tulku never fails to amaze me. 





Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:

"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."

Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.


---------------------------------------------

The above quoted from Wisdom Being from another thread: (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=744.0). I think it is very interesting that Lama Zopa seems 'contradictory' (sorry) in his stance. Dalai Lama says that Trijang Rinpoche is a great and realized master, yet he made a mistake with the Dorje Shugden proliferation. Then Trijang Rinpoche doesn't sound great??  Here Lama Zopa says Trijang Rinpoche shouldn't be hidden away but Lama Zopa is 'against' Dorje Shugden.  Sounds like the shoe is not fitting. Much underlying meaning.

TK

[Manjushri]

A thought just struck me as to the current Lama Osel, who's a recognized reincarnation of Lama Yeshe. The immaculate Lama Yeshe did wonders in his previous life and now his current incarnation, Lama Osel, has taken up on being a film student, and doesn't have much (or anything at all) to do with FPMT. Maybe Lama Osel has the ability to spread Dharma far and wide as well.

With regards to Trijang Rinpoche, HHDL did mention that no one can practise DS except for Trijang Rinpoche. Therefore I take it as he may very well still be practising DS. Hence, with Lama Zopa's last sentence about the current Trijang Rinpoche being able to spread Dharma to the East and West like the rising sun spreads light, does it mean that Trijang Rinpoche, if taken care of properly, will be able to spread DS practises pervasive throughout the lands of the West and East? In a very twisted way, Lama Zopa is promoting DS through his speech about Trijang Rinpoche.. how contradictory yet the wisdom and far-sightedness of a high tulku never fails to amaze me. 


More about Lama Osel/Lama Yeshe can be found here:

1.The story of Lama Osel, from Lama to Film Student:
 http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2076.msg30360#msg30360

2. Lama Osel renounces FPMT:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=478.0

3. Lama Yeshe:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1318.msg17215#msg17215

[beggar]

Hence, with Lama Zopa's last sentence about the current Trijang Rinpoche being able to spread Dharma to the East and West like the rising sun spreads light, does it mean that Trijang Rinpoche, if taken care of properly, will be able to spread DS practises pervasive throughout the lands of the West and East?

I would certainly like to think so!

It is no small "mistake" or oversight on the part of the Dalai Lama to have given the only exception to Trijang Rinpoche to practice Shugden. If Shugden really was so terrible, so harmful and so detrimental to individuals as well as the cause of Tibet and the Dalai Lama's life, why would he allow the incarnation of his own Guru to engage in such a "dangerous" practice? This doesn't make any sense at all. (He claims that it is because Trijang Rinpoche is very powerful and therefore able to control this supposed spirit. In that case, why doesn't Trijang Rinpoche, being one so powerful, just completely subdue or destroy this supposed "spirit")

If Trijang Rinpoche is permitted to practice, then surely it will not just be him alone doing this practice. The Dalai Lama knows very well that Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche has his own following of students, and center; that he would have assistants and students who would participate in the prayers and teachings with him. If Trijang Rinpoche is permitted to practice Dorje Shugden, then there must also be someone to teach him the practices, history, lineage etc. In turn, he will need people to help with him the most basic aspects of practice - making the tormas, preparing the offerings, assisting in the pujas themselves.

As a teacher who has had such a tremendous impact in our lineage, who was so crucial in passing on so many of the teachings we still have today, surely this incarnation may very well continue to teach and to continue passing on the lineage and teachings. Would the Dalai Lama not know this, in allowing him to continue his practice of Shugden? Is this some kind of foolishness, an oversight? Or is it preparing a new generation of teachers, to take over the helm when the dalai lama has to pass away?

And wouldn't Trijang Rinpoche know all this - what's really an authentic practice or just a spirit worship? Just so many absurdities and contradictions. 

[Big Uncle]

You know, I think the current incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is just waiting. There's nothing he can do right now except buy time until the ban is lifted. Even as he lays low, he's already teaching at his center to close students and friends. Recently, he has been traveling to places like Mongolia and has been meeting fellow Dorje Shugden Lamas as well.

I do think it is a shame that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was unable to complete his monastic education and training in the monastery. However, he is highly attained and may not need the full formal training and is able to present the teachings in such a way that would suit the mind of the listener. This is the first incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche that's not a monk and has even taken in a consort. Some Gelug conservatives fear the consequences of such a departure from his incarnation and Gelug sensibilities.

However, I do think this is positive in todays world and towards today's audience. Future students of Trijang Rinpoche would be overwhelmingly lay practitioners and being lay himself would be an added advantage as he would be able to present the teachings and the experiences from a lay practitioner's perspective. Being such a high incarnation himself, every action he does is beneficial regardless of how we view it. That's what I believe.                                                       

[beggar]

This is the first incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche that's not a monk and has even taken in a consort. Some Gelug conservatives fear the consequences of such a departure from his incarnation and Gelug sensibilities.               

Having said that however, Trijang Rinpoche's consort is no ordinary lady. She is the daughter of the greatly respected master Drigung Rinpoche who is known for being very highly attained. She is often referred to as a dakini.

That's interesting what you say about Trijang Rinpoche assuming a lay role in this incarnation - yes, it may well be to connect to what would be a much larger lay community; something to suit the time and needs of the people right now.

But perhaps it could also mean a kind of collective broken samaya, that has prevented him from completing this full monastic education and to have given back his monk vows. 

[Ensapa]

You know, I think the current incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is just waiting. There's nothing he can do right now except buy time until the ban is lifted. Even as he lays low, he's already teaching at his center to close students and friends. Recently, he has been traveling to places like Mongolia and has been meeting fellow Dorje Shugden Lamas as well.
He is probably doing it in small groups for students that will spread Dorje Shugden far and wide, including the Dharma and many different teachings, empowerments and initiations of various yidams. I believe that what he is doing is that he is training these batch of students to be such teachers in the near future. After all, Lamas train their core students in small groups, and not by the whole lot.

I do think it is a shame that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was unable to complete his monastic education and training in the monastery. However, he is highly attained and may not need the full formal training and is able to present the teachings in such a way that would suit the mind of the listener. This is the first incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche that's not a monk and has even taken in a consort. Some Gelug conservatives fear the consequences of such a departure from his incarnation and Gelug sensibilities.
Does someone of Trijang Rinpoche's calibre needs a monastic education before he is ready to benefit others and spread the Dharma? I dont think so. Breaking samaya has consequences: it forces a teacher to abandon his "old" students and find ways to take on new ones. The people of Chatring did not do well either -- they threatened him to not give up Dorje Shugden. And thus, he had to spread Dharma in the US and be far, far away from them. How does one threaten your own lama and expect the lama to stay?

However, I do think this is positive in todays world and towards today's audience. Future students of Trijang Rinpoche would be overwhelmingly lay practitioners and being lay himself would be an added advantage as he would be able to present the teachings and the experiences from a lay practitioner's perspective. Being such a high incarnation himself, every action he does is beneficial regardless of how we view it. That's what I believe.
A being of Trijang Rinpoche's calibre will always be successful no matter what he does. If the old group of students dont behave, he'll just find a new one and perhaps, more powerful and stronger ones that are just waiting for the ban to be lifted.                                                      

I wonder tho, when HHDL lifts the ban, would Trijang Rinpoche forgive the Dalai Lama for the huge breach of samaya? Will HHDL be put into a very long retreat to repair his samaya and the damage caused to Dorje Shugden? or will something like every Tibetan monastery must have a statue of Shugden? This is an interesting conclusion to the ban that lasted for more than 40 years...lets hope that the ban ends soon and let us all work towards it!