Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's sacred name being smeared!

[DSFriend]

Dear Beggar,

Yes..it's not always a bad thing to sit on the fence. This really should be the "mood" of the forum. To discuss things without too much of an extreme perspective on the controversy.

It is always saddening to see such hate expressed towards HHDL...especially when it comes from people in robes. It creates a very bad image for Buddhism as a whole, let alone shugdenpas.

Although, without such terrible controversial acts, would DS be on the spotlight as much as it it today....?


DSfriend

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Dear Beggar,

Yes..it's not always a bad thing to sit on the fence. This really should be the "mood" of the forum. ...

Ah, the Swisso-Swedish option during the WWII, or the Swedo-Finnish option during the Cold War? Cool. The head in the mud, and the lower end raised in the ostrich position, while horrible things happen all around. Such a nobility of character and position.

Well, anyways, maybe I just think too much in the terms of Western Ethics, where it is not enough to "not kill", but to "raise your voice against those who kill". I'll guess it could be called participatory ethics, or active compassion. But who cares. The important thing nowadays in this forum seems to be that we all are friends, and nobody says anything bad about a certain person, and if they do even a little bit, to hell with those hatemongers... 

[beggar]

Well, anyways, maybe I just think too much in the terms of Western Ethics, where it is not enough to "not kill", but to "raise your voice against those who kill". I'll guess it could be called participatory ethics, or active compassion. But who cares. The important thing nowadays in this forum seems to be that we all are friends, and nobody says anything bad about a certain person, and if they do even a little bit, to hell with those hatemongers... 

ah yes, but remember that a very large percentage of people suffering from this ban are people who are NOT in a western environment with western points of reference. many are tibetans living in tibetan communities or even monasteries where it is not as simple as just "raising your voice". I know for a fact many tibetans who are caught in this never-ending conundrum where they wish to keep their commitment to the protector's practice and their teachers but are in no position (spiritually, politically, financially etc etc) to simply just "raise their voices" as you have said in such an "easy" way.

have a little thought for a significant community which comes from a very different point of reference and consider how maybe this forum is trying to help them to reconcile this difficult bind within their context and world.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

..... We may not agree with some of Dalai Lama's policies. We make our stance clear, we write letters and and we refrain from harsh descriptives such as liar, dictator and hypocrite. We must present the information without sounding fanatical or motivated by anger. When we present the information such as on this forum, WE LET THE READERS DECIDE IF DALAI LAMA IS DOING WHAT HE IS DOING.

It is important NEVER TO HAVE HATE SITES THAT explicitly and obviously slander the Dalai Lama. Because we are Buddhists. ......

So when we notice that he has in fact lied, we cannot say so?
So when we notice that he has in fact dictated the harmful policies of the exiled Tibetans, we cannot say so?
So when we notice that he has in fact done himself just that what he accuses others of doing, we cannot say so?

And if we nevertheless say so, you dare call that observant speech hate and slander?
Are you, by the way, a Buddhist, or is this Buddhist idea of truthfulness and integrity just a marketing slogan?

Shouldn't we, as Buddhists, strive to truth and protection of the innocent, or are we just to protect the image of the powerful by telling lies and half-truths?

Really.

[Mohani]

Hi ZP
I think that people just want to protect their reputation.

[beggar]

So when we notice that he has in fact lied, we cannot say so?
So when we notice that he has in fact dictated the harmful policies of the exiled Tibetans, we cannot say so?
So when we notice that he has in fact done himself just that what he accuses others of doing, we cannot say so?

And if we nevertheless say so, you dare call that observant speech hate and slander?
Are you, by the way, a Buddhist, or is this Buddhist idea of truthfulness and integrity just a marketing slogan?

Shouldn't we, as Buddhists, strive to truth and protection of the innocent, or are we just to protect the image of the powerful by telling lies and half-truths?

Really.

it has been said many times already that it is not about NOT saying anything at all but the way we present our information. There is a difference between just standing around shouting that the dalai lama is a liar OR presenting the information, facts and evidence that lead to a clear conclusion in the mind of the person you are speaking to.

THIS, i think, is already clear enough and answers your questions:

We must present the information without sounding fanatical or motivated by anger. When we present the information such as on this forum, WE LET THE READERS DECIDE IF DALAI LAMA IS DOING WHAT HE IS DOING.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

.... it has been said many times already that it is not about NOT saying anything at all but the way we present our information. There is a difference between just standing around shouting that the dalai lama is a liar OR presenting the information, facts and evidence that lead to a clear conclusion in the mind of the person you are speaking to.

THIS, i think, is already clear enough and answers your questions:

We must present the information without sounding fanatical or motivated by anger. When we present the information such as on this forum, WE LET THE READERS DECIDE IF DALAI LAMA IS DOING WHAT HE IS DOING.

Ah.

But when you take the volume of the voice into account, even you must see, that one whisper from the Powerful equals thousand shouts from the ostracized and demonized, yes?

You see, if I say "this is the fact", and the HHDL says "that is the fact", whose truth is heard? Really? Do people listen the merits of the differing arguments, or do they rather follow the flock and the Herd-Master? That difference of vocal potential is the reason why the undertrodden have to shout, in large numbers.

And why should you whine? We all here know the ban, the facts, and so forth. Only us trodden would be here, were it not for the "promotion campaign" by certain parties, those parties with the forum silencers, and a pocketfull of mass-vocalists.

[DSFriend]

Dear ZP & Mohani,

This is not a space to air your personal and political grievances.

You have been in this Forum long enough to know the house rules very well. However, I shall re-post the below for your easy reference. By participating in this Forum, your agree to abide by our forum rules. If you violate any of rules, we have no choice but to take immediate action.

Consider this your first warning. You may or may not receive a second warning. If you do not appreciate this forum's views, you are free to go elsewhere.

Thank you and have a good day.

General Discussion
We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone.

Respect
We encourage good manners and do not tolerate any rudeness. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant or disruptive may be suspended, banned or deleted without warning.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Dear ZP & Mohani,

This is not a space to air your personal and political grievances.

You have been in this Forum long enough to know the house rules very well. However, I shall re-post the below for your easy reference. By participating in this Forum, your agree to abide by our forum rules. If you violate any of rules, we have no choice but to take immediate action.

Consider this your first warning. You may or may not receive a second warning. If you do not appreciate this forum's views, you are free to go elsewhere.

Thank you and have a good day.

General Discussion
We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone.

Respect
We encourage good manners and do not tolerate any rudeness. Any member who is intentionally unpleasant or disruptive may be suspended, banned or deleted without warning.

I can here only speak for me, not the netonym Mohani, but I'll really have to ask that what have supposedly I done now, that is so bad? In one post, even the netonym Admin maintained that there is "a life danger to the DS-Lamas, if they are outed", so surely all of you "in the staff" know that what I speak is true. Why would Admin fear something if what I speak is just slander or something like that? If on the other hand, the forum policy includes the ostrich option, then so be it - but just say it in public, and I shall gladly abide by it. It is just that before, we could speak freely, so you really should allow for slow ones like me some time to adjust.

I have tried to be good mannered. I am sorry if your idea of good manners differ from mine. Please try to be multicultural in your assessment of us different writers - we, the people practicing DS around the globe do differ in what we consider good manners. I do admit, that by Confucian standards, I am rude, but by the standards of my home country, I have been most courteous.

And as an afterthought, I must protest that the opinions I have presented here, during these many years, are suddenly seen as grievances, personal or political. Truth is never political or personal, nor can it's proclamation be seen as grievance.

Also, I would like to know what are the views of this forum, that I am supposed to appreciate? I always thought that my view was one of the views of this forum. Sure I appreciate all views. But what is exactly the group of "views of this forum", I ask?


yours in the Dharma,
Zhalmed Pawo

[DSFriend]

The views upheld by this website, which this forum is under, has already been made very clear many times throughout many posts: this being that we do not speak badly against any lama, be it the Dalai Lama or any other lama, nor incite any negative speech or views against him. We have always encouraged the sharing of information and encourage readers to investigate, learn, gain information, understand and come to their own informed decisions.

What we will not tolerate is the manner in which this information is presented in critical, sarcastic or negative tones. This is not the first time this has been addressed; moderators have warned many times to be careful of the tone you are using to post or the way you are presenting information for or against any lama. We have also warned many times against posting repeatedly negative posts against the Dalai Lama.

Please be reminded that this forum is about sharing and discussing issues related to the practice of Dorje Shugden and not just a platform for repeatedly voicing the same (political) views about the Dalai Lama (or any lama) and political situations. As you repeatedly bring up the same points against the Dalai Lama in various threads (which have already been addressed), we can't help but start to think that you are not here to learn or share but to promote a political agenda.

As Dorje Shugden practitioners, we are all united in wanting to preserve and protect the lineage of this practice and Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. May we suggest that we direct our energy and efforts towards doing this instead of always returning to the  same political points, upon which we have long ago agreed to disagree upon? For a start, Zhalmed Pawo, I am sure that as DS practitioner, you have received plenty of benefit from the practice. May we humbly invite you to share how this practice has helped you in your spiritual path?

[Ensapa]

Since Big Uncle hasn't replied yet, I googled and found the letter on reting.org http://www.reting.org/openletter.html. There doesn't appear to be a date but the site was last updated in 2006... doesn't seem to be well maintained. I feel the letter really is a rant...

Yes, it does seem very much like a rant. A lot of rambling, poor reting! It can be very worrying that letters like this are posted on his official website, making it look like it is something spiritual or authoritative when it clearly is not and in fact is very destructive to the name of dharma. We must always be on our guard with letters like this, written in the name of someone who has a big name or a lot of supposed or assumed power. I find it highly suspicious already that he talks about what he remembers from his past life very early on in the letter. I thought Gelugpas emphasise humility and never encourage talking about such things! So what is he proving.

Take it with a pinch of salt. There is so much politicking in the spiritual sphere these days that it is sometimes hard to really see what someone's intention is no matter how muddled or confused it may be.

i would like to take my cue from the monks of shar gaden or the many brave warriors who are continuing to spread the teachings and Dharma selflessly without uttering a single word against any lama, no matter how much they may have been personally wronged. They show us the example of a true practitioner. Sure, you don't hear about them much but that's because they are doing what they do best - practice, not politicks.

I would like to also point out that this letter was definitely not written by the real Reting Rinpoche. It appears to be too shallow and based on popular information about the event rather than containing any actual 'insider' facts like for example, how the Dalai Lama commented on his previous incarnations in the book about the Dalai Lamas in Glenn Mullin's book. Also, the current Reting Rinpoche has gone underground and would not set up a website to attract attention. He has been recognized by mongolia (seems like many banned tulkus reappear there, lol) and he is keeping a very low profile for now due to the negative karma of his previous students who did nothing to defend his name and honor. He cannot manifest as a Dharma teacher at this time. That website itself contains information that can be easily found either in Dharamsala or online, and there are no concrete statements that a real tulku would make. For example, there are no pictures, nor are there any other writings where he does not talk about Dorje Shugden in a negative light. This website was set up by an anti Dorje Shugden person to deceive others.

For example, the part about Trichen Ngawang Chokden, the first Reting, it mentions that he banned Dorje Shugden when in fact, deeper investigations showed that he banned another spirit that was also from Dol thus using the name Dolgyal. These are the things that make me doubt this website and its contents from the start.

What is the negative karma of someone borrowing the reputation of a high lama to spread their own agendas? No wonder the website has been dead and the translation of Rain of Adamant Fire never appeared. The website itself was updated in 2006.