Sharing Geshe-la's teachings here or not?

[Mana]

From: tharlam
2011/08/16 at 9:00 pm posted on: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6604
 

What is the reason that you have Geshe-la’s* teaching on your website? As you should well know, Geshe-la completely and devotedly followed the advice of HH The Dalai Lama and stopped the practice of Shugden.

In my opinion, it is misleading to post teachings of Geshe-la on your website since Geshe-la was most definitely NOT one of your supporters!!

Thank you for your time and consideration.

********************************************************************************************

Dear Tharlam,

Geshe la was alive for 80 years approximately. He followed and practiced Shugden for around 45 years of his life. It was only the last 15 years of his life he was browbeaten into 'towing the line'. Like many other lamas. Many lamas just went underground with their practice. In this age of Dharamsala having a campaign against any religious beliefs, what choice do they have? None. It is wrong for Dharamsala to speak out against any spiritual practice. Can any leader of any democratic country speak out against any form of worship in today's world? Of course not, it would be disastrous for their leadership.

In his centre Thubten Dhargye Ling in the former addresses of on St Andrews Place and LaCienega Ave in Los Angeles, he did Dorje Shugden pujas with his students monthly. Sometimes Geshe La would do the puja twice a month. He was a very devoted follower of HH Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. He recieved more practices from his teacher Kyabje Zong Rinpoche & HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche during his studies in Gaden Shartse than he did from HH Dalai Lama ever.  He often praised highly Zong and Trijang Rinpoche.

Geshe-la use to give teachings on Dorje Shugden in Thubten Dhargye Ling (LaCienega Ave location) using Trijang Rinpoche's explanation/commentary on Shugden to his close students of around 30 who practiced. Geshe La even recieved Sogtae (initiation of Shugden) from Zong Rinpoche and encouraged others to do so. Can Geshe La do such an about face suddenly?  To have Geshe-la's teachings on this site is to benefit many others to learn the dharma. Why can't people learn the dharma from a great teacher just because they practice Shugden?

In fact, if Shugden is wrong, you should have Geshe-la's/other great masters' teachings on this site to benefit others and maybe they will 'wake up' and abandon the practice. Whatever happened to the spirit of Buddhism where you love your enemy, forgive them and help them.

I appreciate your input and appreciate your concern, but since Geshe-la gave immaculate teachings, share them with the whole of samsara no matter what each person's individuals beliefs are.

Mana

*Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen (California)

[dsiluvu]

Wow it is amazing to see how much people have adopted the "HATE" attitude towards all practising DS unti we are not even allowed to hear good Dharma teachings from other masters???

I never knew Buddha's teachings were only for non-ds practitioners and never knew Buddhist pray for all sentient beings and practice love and compassion for all sentient beings except Dorje Shugden practitioners!

[Ensapa]

Ah, can you smell the desperation? The desperation and disbelief that this person is unable to accept that his Guru is a Dorje Shugden practitioner is really sad and funny at the same time. It is pretty obvious that this person wants to be desperately be a "clean" practitioner and on seeing his Guru being featured here on this website as a practitioner, he cannot take it and wants to deny the truth, despite not being a close student of his teacher. Many DS lamas stopped talking or practicing Dorje Shugden directly, but it does not mean that they are not allowed to do his practice in secret, quietly, with just a few main attendants. Lama Zopa does this, else why would he order a Dorje Shugden puja from Kopan when he was sick a year ago? Just because the lama does not show that he is a practitioner or does not declare, it does not mean that  he is not a Dorje Shugden lama. Only close students would know the truth, so as a student who is not close, and who is not the Lama's personal attendant, why else would they want to assume that they know all about their lama?

In essence, if the claims were false, Geshe Tsultrim Gyaltsen or his main attendants would have emailed this site to remove him from here, but that did not happen. If I were this person, I would not be so worried about all of this and focus on what the Guru has to offer. Whether or not he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner actually makes not much of a difference because what is important is the teachings that he passes down, not which Dharma protector he does.

[harrynephew]

Wow it is amazing to see how much people have adopted the "HATE" attitude towards all practising DS unti we are not even allowed to hear good Dharma teachings from other masters???

I never knew Buddha's teachings were only for non-ds practitioners and never knew Buddhist pray for all sentient beings and practice love and compassion for all sentient beings except Dorje Shugden practitioners!

I think it is a very normal reaction found everywhere whenever people meet with situations or people whom they do not handle, they just dramatize everything with dissatisfaction and hate so that the people who see their anger will back off.

Fat hopes!

Understanding the situation through study and patience will lead a person to understand the reason behind such an affair and it is only fair both for ourselves and the people involved that we understand in depth before jumping into any conclusions.

Definitely Hatred and anger will not solve the problem on a short term and long term basis. We should actually do what HHDL is doing. Bring all these facts and information out to the public through different form of platforms. Be it in the media, social media etc, this is a pivotal part of the ban, how it came onto Shugden practitioners is that HHDL was publicising it over the media, and it is through the media we can educate the people of the public with the right points in order for them to learn as well.

[lotus1]

Buddhism is a science, a philosophy and a way of living. The authentic teaching of Buddha shows us the way to get our ultimate happiness through the middle path. Buddha didn’t ask us to have differentiation and discrimination to anyone or anything. He just asked us to look into the reality and the truth that causes sufferings and the path that to get happiness. Therefore, it is definitely perfectly OK for any Shugden practitioner to listen to any high lama or great master such as Dalai Lama, Lama Zopa and Geshe-la too.

Furthermore, Geshe-la received Sogtae (initiation of Shugden) from Zong Rinpoche. For a high lama that should have fully understand about the meaning of initiation is to follow it and practice it for lives, I am sure he will never neglect the practice although he may not do it openly. 

Besides, just like Mana said, if Shugden is wrong, it will be even better to have Geshe-la’s articles here to “wake us up” and “follow his footsteps” to the “bright side”. Why should tharlam you be so stingy? Hehehe.

[vajratruth]

It is incredible how blinded a person can be when prejudice sets in. Some have even allowed the Shugden affair to redefine all that the Buddha taught, such that Buddhism to them is merely whether or not one believes in Dorje Shugden.

That the teachings of Geshe Tsultim Gyeltsen on Renunciation (plus those of many more illustrious Masters) should appear on this site should itself speak volumes about this site and Dorje Shugden. What should be obvious is that Dorje Shugden is synonymous with the Buddha's Dharma and is a Protector (albeit an Uncommon Protector) of the Buddha's teachings, instead of being the evil spirit that seeks to destroy the Dharma. Why would an anti-dharma site promote Dharma?

If Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, to promote the Dharma teachings by great Lamas would be like the Devil's website promoting the Bible and the words of the saviour. Obviously that is not the case. Look at the Prayers that Dorje Shugden.com promotes and encourages people to exposed to: (i) Prayer to Setrab; (ii) 8 Verses Of Mind Training; (iii) A Guide To A Bodhisattva's Way Of Life; (iv) The Three Principal Paths, and more. Can this be how an evil spirit works?

Come on, anti-Shugden people, let's return to reason and logic.

[DharmaDefender]

Hahaha wtf. Where did you lot find this post?!

1) if Geshe-la has stopped practising, why is everyone who has Kelsang in their ordination name still protesting?

2) why do so many of the NKT centres still have DS statues? Why do the Kadampa World Peace Temples in Australia and Ulverston still have DS statues on their altar?

3) Anyway like everyones already pointed out, Geshe-las teachings are still every bit as valid whether or not he practises DS, and since this IS a site about Dharma...

...Jesus Christ I cant believe Im spending my Sunday answering such a stupid question!!!

[Losang_Tenpa]

Hahaha wtf. Where did you lot find this post?!

1) if Geshe-la has stopped practising, why is everyone who has Kelsang in their ordination name still protesting?

2) why do so many of the NKT centres still have DS statues? Why do the Kadampa World Peace Temples in Australia and Ulverston still have DS statues on their altar?

3) Anyway like everyones already pointed out, Geshe-las teachings are still every bit as valid whether or not he practises DS, and since this IS a site about Dharma...

...Jesus Christ I cant believe Im spending my Sunday answering such a stupid question!!!

This thread refers to Geshe Tsultrim Gyaltsen, not Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

[Aurore]

This is no different in saying a person who sinned are not allowed to repent or to be taught any goodness.

Monks and teachers, please do not go to jail and teach the criminals because they do not deserve the teachings of the Buddha. Sound ridiculous or pure selfishness?

Moreover, Shugden practitioners are not criminals but are merely people who are committed to remain with the practice their gurus gave them just as how Geshe-la was practicing what his guru gave him. It takes integrity and strong will to not succumb to the easier path because life as a Shugdenpa is not easy. People should start seeing the good qualities of Shugden practitioners rather than the negative.

[thor]

Whatever. The website states that all past and present practitioners of Dorje Shugden are featured. So regardless of whether geshe-la gave up the practice of Shugden or not, they have fair right to feature him on their site.

What's more, zong Rinpoche was the root guru of Geshe-la. Do you think he would willingly go back on his commitments to his root teacher in order to be politically correct? I wouldn't think much of him if that was the case. Do you think Geshe-la would pick the words of the Dalai Lama over his own root teacher? That's breaking all the rules of Guru Devotion, no? Dont you think Geshe-la was brow-beaten and forced to give up his practice? I have no doubt the decision would have been a very difficult one, and perhaps of the reasons he chose that path was to continue bringing dharma to many in LA without the stigma of the ban.... And perhaps he continued to practice in secret?

And for those who have doubt that Geshe-la was ever a dorje shugden practitioner, listen to him translating teachings of Kyabje Zong Rinpoche on Dorje Shugden.

PART 1
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/videos/must-watch/must-watch-advice-from-hh-kyabje-zong-dorje-chang-on-dorje-shugden-part-1/

PART 2
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/videos/must-watch/must-watch-advice-from-hh-kyabje-zong-dorje-chang-on-dorje-shugden-part-2/

Just notice how devotedly Geshe la refers to Zong Rinpoche and think for yourself.

My root guru His Holiness Kyabje Zong Tulku Dorje Chang Lobsang Tsundu Thubten Gyaltsen gives most emanation deity Gyalchen Dorje Shugden’s life entrustment initiation along with very pure and excellent biographies and stories, here is the voice record while giving the empowerment.

I, Geshe Tsultrim Gyaltsen student formally requested.

[Ensapa]

hello everybody,

just a very, very quick note:

From: tharlam
2011/08/16 at 9:00 pm posted on: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6604
 

What is the reason that you have Geshe-la’s* teaching on your website? As you should well know, Geshe-la completely and devotedly followed the advice of HH The Dalai Lama and stopped the practice of Shugden.

*Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen (California)

The Geshe-La in the article refers to Geshe Tsultrim Gyalsten, not Geshe La Geshe Keslang  Gyatso. Please do not mix them up.

here's a brief writeup of someone's experience with Geshe Tsultrim Gyaltsen.

I met Geshe Gyeltsen (Gen-la, “honorable teacher,” as was my habit of addressing him) in late 1976 at a one-week retreat outside Santa Barbara, California. For three years I had been searching for someone to teach me how to meditate and had offered strong prayers to the universe at large to help me. The first time I saw Gen-la I knew immediately that he was going to be my teacher. A few days after the course began, I had an interview, actually my first conversation, with him. After a few moments of silence, he proceeded to answer all the questions I had so carefully written down and in the order they were written without me getting the chance to ask any of them. He then very forcefully said, “And this other woman. You stop it right now.” I was so shocked I could not speak. He knew my mind, my life. I could have no secrets from this man. There was no place to hide. When I finally was able to make some sound come out of my mouth, I asked if there was some kind of vow I could make to him. He said to stay after the morning session the next day. So on that day, January 1, 1977, I took refuge. It is due to Gen-la’s kindness that I have had an opportunity to try to make my life meaningful. Without his hooking my mind to the Dharma that day, there would have been no Buddha, no Dharma, no Sangha, no Lama Yeshe, no Lama Zopa Rinpoche, no His Holiness the Dalai Lama, no Zong Rinpoche, no Ribur Rinpoche nor any of the other holy masters who have blessed my mind over the years. He is my root guru.

Gen-la was always available, easily accessible. His advice was always appropriate and beneficial. He was an incredible example of how to practice. There wasn’t the slightest space between what he taught and his actions. He lived his life as a Kadampa master would – humble, dedicated to the practice of Buddhadharma and to serving sentient beings. He taught lam-rim. He taught lojong, or mind training, teachings repeatedly. During the last three years he taught every Sunday from various texts of the Kadampa geshes. He taught skillfully, to each person’s level, without discrimination, without ever charging for the teachings. For many years he did not offer any commentaries on Vajrayana practice. It was only when his guru His Eminence Lati Rinpoche asked him to do so that he offered his first commentary. It was on Vajrayogini and it took several months of teachings one or two nights a week; the depth and profundity of these teachings were overwhelming. He had received the Vajrayogini initiation from the great Pabongka Rinpoche Dechen Nyingpo when he was 15 years old. He maintained this as one of his daily practices for over seventy years. Gen-la never did a long solitary retreat. During the thirty-two years that I was able to observe, I saw that he was constantly in retreat. He spent each day doing his practices and taking care of his duties to the monastery and his students. On a daily basis he did the long sadhanas of Vajrayogini, Yamantaka, Heruka Body Mandala, Guhyasamaja and Cittimani Tara. He did one hundred prostrations daily until he was over eighty years of age. He was a secret yogi. His actions during his illness and the incredible signs he showed on his passing gave him away as an accomplished holy master, something his students already knew.