The Yellow Book

[vajralight]

On the various lineages and mixing.

From: http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso

Lopez: Given your devotion to Dorje Shugden and your founding of the the New Kadampa Tradition, do you feel that Je Tsongkhapa’s view, meditation, and practice is the most complete in all Tibetan Buddhism? Is it only through Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings that one can attain enlightenment? Or is it also possible though Nyingma or Kagyu?

GKG (Geshe Kelsang GYatso) :Of course! Of course we believe that every Nyingmapa and Kagyupa have their complete path. Not only Gelugpa. I believe that Nyingmapas have a complete path. Of course, Kagyupas are very special. We very much appreciate the example of Marpa and Milarepa [in the Kagyu lineage]. Milarepa showed the best example of guru devotion. Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment. Many Nyingmapas and Kagyupas practice very sincerely and are not just studying intellectually. I think that some Gelugpa practitioners need to follow their practical example. But we don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.

Vajra

[VS]

On the various lineages and mixing.

From: http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso

Lopez: Given your devotion to Dorje Shugden and your founding of the the New Kadampa Tradition, do you feel that Je Tsongkhapa’s view, meditation, and practice is the most complete in all Tibetan Buddhism? Is it only through Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings that one can attain enlightenment? Or is it also possible though Nyingma or Kagyu?

GKG (Geshe Kelsang GYatso) :Of course! Of course we believe that every Nyingmapa and Kagyupa have their complete path. Not only Gelugpa. I believe that Nyingmapas have a complete path. Of course, Kagyupas are very special. We very much appreciate the example of Marpa and Milarepa [in the Kagyu lineage]. Milarepa showed the best example of guru devotion. Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment. Many Nyingmapas and Kagyupas practice very sincerely and are not just studying intellectually. I think that some Gelugpa practitioners need to follow their practical example. But we don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.

Vajra

1. Isn't it all schools/traditions teaches people to be good and not to cause harm to one another? 

2. High Lamas has the ability to control their death and reincarnation. Isn't it true that They'll choose to leave their current incarnation if They feel that the obstacles created by students will dampen what They wish to accomplish to benefit sentient beings and by taking a new reincarnation, They can benefit more?

3. Why should Dorje Shugden end the life of practitioners that were sincere before but have gone wayward to prevent them from collecting or creating more negative karma? From what i've read, DS will use skilful means to help practitioners to collect less negative karma.

4. If one doesn't have the karma to be killed, how can he or she be killed? On the other hand, if their karma has ripen or if their time is up, nobody even the most powerful protector or high lama also are able to prevent his or her death.

Whatever articles that has been translated in this book sound as if is to create rift between the different practices. Doesn't make sense.

[DharmaSpace]

1. Isn't it all schools/traditions teaches people to be good and not to cause harm to one another?

2. High Lamas has the ability to control their death and reincarnation. Isn't it true that They'll choose to leave their current incarnation if They feel that the obstacles created by students will dampen what They wish to accomplish to benefit sentient beings and by taking a new reincarnation, They can benefit more?

3. Why should Dorje Shugden end the life of practitioners that were sincere before but have gone wayward to prevent them from collecting or creating more negative karma? From what i've read, DS will use skilful means to help practitioners to collect less negative karma.

4. If one doesn't have the karma to be killed, how can he or she be killed? On the other hand, if their karma has ripen or if their time is up, nobody even the most powerful protector or high lama also are able to prevent his or her death.

Whatever articles that has been translated in this book sound as if is to create rift between the different practices. Doesn't make sense.

1. Yes that makes sense.

2. It makes sense but how does it relate to Dorje Shugden?

3. There is a tale by a Nyingma lama about their protector to kills people who have stepped out of line.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5592 
There is this sentence in the article
"The wisdom mind of the dharmapalas is such that when people are cut, they are also liberated"

The ship captain who rescued 499 merchant by killing an evil merchant was using skilful means too. Are we at the level to think this or that action is not skilful?

4. Correct even the Buddha could not stop the Sakyas being massacred. 

[Ensapa]

1. Isn't it all schools/traditions teaches people to be good and not to cause harm to one another? 
Although they do, that does not mean that practitioners with other agendas cannot twist the teachings to fit what they want. Most of them do it in secret as they cannot do it openly so they make implications that has double meanings, that will subconsciously mean something else. I'm just explaining what i have observed as it is quite scary to see practitioners act in this way.

2. High Lamas has the ability to control their death and reincarnation. Isn't it true that They'll choose to leave their current incarnation if They feel that the obstacles created by students will dampen what They wish to accomplish to benefit sentient beings and by taking a new reincarnation, They can benefit more?
This does not have anything much to do with this thread, but yes there are many cases like this, even during modern times. Isnt this how Penor Rinpoche entered clear light? Sometimes it can be scary to have a Guru, and knowing that by not changing, you end your Guru's life prematurely.

3. Why should Dorje Shugden end the life of practitioners that were sincere before but have gone wayward to prevent them from collecting or creating more negative karma? From what i've read, DS will use skilful means to help practitioners to collect less negative karma.
In some cases where the practitioner is too deluded, the only solution is to eject them to a pure lan (phowa) via tantric means. Death is obviously the last solution that will be used if all other methods fail. For example, having a monk who is about to create schism kiled before he could perform that act would be of more benefit than having him live and split the monastery.

4. If one doesn't have the karma to be killed, how can he or she be killed? On the other hand, if their karma has ripen or if their time is up, nobody even the most powerful protector or high lama also are able to prevent his or her death.
One always has the karma to be killed. There is no telling if we have the karma to be killed from our countless previous lives. Even killing an ant by accident generates enough karma to get us killed. That was what happened to Nagajurna. What about us? When the karma ripens nothing can be done but here in the yellow book it is made to look as if the protector killed them.

Whatever articles that has been translated in this book sound as if is to create rift between the different practices. Doesn't make sense.
It was from Trijang Rinpoche, distorted and translated out of context on purpose for whatever reasons the translator wanted it to be. This is why Dharma translators have to be sincere and free of the 8 worldly concerns.

Replies in blue!

[Ensapa]

On the various lineages and mixing.

From: http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso

Lopez: Given your devotion to Dorje Shugden and your founding of the the New Kadampa Tradition, do you feel that Je Tsongkhapa’s view, meditation, and practice is the most complete in all Tibetan Buddhism? Is it only through Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings that one can attain enlightenment? Or is it also possible though Nyingma or Kagyu?

GKG (Geshe Kelsang GYatso) :Of course! Of course we believe that every Nyingmapa and Kagyupa have their complete path. Not only Gelugpa. I believe that Nyingmapas have a complete path. Of course, Kagyupas are very special. We very much appreciate the example of Marpa and Milarepa [in the Kagyu lineage]. Milarepa showed the best example of guru devotion. Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment. Many Nyingmapas and Kagyupas practice very sincerely and are not just studying intellectually. I think that some Gelugpa practitioners need to follow their practical example. But we don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.

Vajra

Personally, I really do like this quote because it clarifies, literally, all of the misconceptions that come about being nonsectarian. In the general public, due to misunderstandings, being nonsectarian is to mix everything up and be open and practice every single tradition out there without any discrimination, and to hold back and focus on a particular tradition is considered as sectarian. Perhaps this was spread by CTA for their own gains, but there other more logical nonsectarian view would be that we can focus our practice on a particular tradition, and respect the rest without saying that the tradition of our focus is the best and that works as well.

Seriously, i prefer that approach than to practice every single tradition because i want results, not just blessings.

[gbds3jewels]

Okay I know this is an old topic and people in this forum may think been there, discussed that and moved on. I'm new in exploring about Dorje Shugden so obviously the source of the ban intrigues me. Right now I'm quite neutral about forming any strong opinion about who's right or wrong. As I understand it Dorje Shugden was specifically tasked to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's teaching.

1. So if I decide to practice Lama Tsongkhapa or follow the Gelupa practice I cannot practice other Tibetan lineage? Or does this apply to high lamas only because their influence and actions are more profound?
2. Why does practicing other lineages considered to be detrimental or diluting one's lineage?
3. The punishment seems a bit too severe considering it's not like the lama was practicing another religion altogether
4. I have my questions about the Yellow Book but how the heck did all this get turned into a ban against Dorje Shugden anyways? Are you sure this is the correct source for the ban because it's not substantial.

[thor]

Okay I know this is an old topic and people in this forum may think been there, discussed that and moved on. I'm new in exploring about Dorje Shugden so obviously the source of the ban intrigues me. Right now I'm quite neutral about forming any strong opinion about who's right or wrong. As I understand it Dorje Shugden was specifically tasked to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's teaching.

1. So if I decide to practice Lama Tsongkhapa or follow the Gelupa practice I cannot practice other Tibetan lineage? Or does this apply to high lamas only because their influence and actions are more profound?
2. Why does practicing other lineages considered to be detrimental or diluting one's lineage?
3. The punishment seems a bit too severe considering it's not like the lama was practicing another religion altogether
4. I have my questions about the Yellow Book but how the heck did all this get turned into a ban against Dorje Shugden anyways? Are you sure this is the correct source for the ban because it's not substantial.

Hi gbds3jewels

This article would be good for you to read and probably answer most of your questions. http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-yellow-book/

But I'll try to answer as best that I can.

1 & 2. It is not recommended to mix the different lineages of Buddhism together, even within the vajrayana path. Gelug, sakya, nyingma and kagyu all have different methods and paths leading to the one goal of enlightenment. If one were to mix the lineages, one would most likely not get anywhere akin to mixing driving directions from different people to reach a common destination. 

When it comes to high lamas as you call them, the impact of mixing lineages would be even more severe, as the mixed teachings and practices would be passed down to their disciples without the blessings of the lineage, in effect causing the teachings to degenerate. That's why Dorje Shugden took such strong actions as detailed in the cautionary tales contained within the Yellow Book.

3. As stated in the article, the high lamas in question include great attained lamas like kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, and, given his attained nature, death would be just another journey and nothing to fear like us normal practitioners. Of course, Kyabje Pabongka showed us the example to follow when he needed Dorje Shugden's warnings and abandoned the pursuit of Nyingma teachings. Other attained lamas showed us a different example of what NOT to do when they ignored the warnings and omens and continued polluting the teachings.

4. What is commonly said is that after the Yellow Book was published, the 14th Dalai Lama decided to use the tales within the Yellow Book to demonize Dorje Shugden. However, it is interesting to note that:
 - Zemey Rinpoche received those teachings from Trijang Dorje Chang as a commentary to Music Delighting.
 - Given that Trijang Rinpoche was the junior tutor to the Dalai Lama, isn't it likely that the Dalai Lama would have received those teachings as well, as he holds pretty much all the lineages in the Gelug tradition?
 - The material contained in the Yellow Book is actually nothing new. Given that it is commentary to Music Delighting, the other lamas would have already studied the contents within Music Delighting where similar examples of Dorje Shugden's wrathful methods to ensure the purity of the Gelug lineage are detailed. So why the big fuss?

My personal opinion is that the Yellow Book was used as an excuse to start the Shugden ban for political reasons. And other schools probably jumped on the ban as it served their purpose. Perhaps the administrators of this site could do a 2nd article to explain further the role of the Yellow Book in the current controversy?

[Big Uncle]

1. So if I decide to practice Lama Tsongkhapa or follow the Gelupa practice I cannot practice other Tibetan lineage? Or does this apply to high lamas only because their influence and actions are more profound?

Actually, if a practitioner is new to Dharma, one can still explore until one has found one's root Guru. Once, we have set our minds to a particular Guru, it is only natural to be loyal to one's lineage and Guru for the very fact that we want to achieve the same qualities as our Guru. Hence, we go all the way with the practices and lineages. For modern practitioners with all the distractions that we have, we would not be able to practice a lineage to its entirety and therefore, all the teachings contained within one of the great lineages would be sufficient for us.

2. Why does practicing other lineages considered to be detrimental or diluting one's lineage?

As Thor had mentioned in the Yellow book article. It was said that the lamas mentioned in the Yellow book were big and influential lamas. Hence, when they mix practices, they are also teaching that to their students through their example. Eventually, some precious Gelug lineages would even become extinct because Lamas and people would not have time and energy to practice all the lineages in this day and age of distraction. From the side of the practitioner, mixing of lineages can lead to confusion rather than clarity because the path set in each lineage may have different methods and ordinary practitioners may not know how to prioritize.

3. The punishment seems a bit too severe considering it's not like the lama was practicing another religion altogether

In Buddhism, we may not fully understand the extensive deeds of the attained masters and beings. We may consider it to be wrathful and scary but to them, it is a manifestation of their deeds to benefit beings. We have low threshold for suffering while they have great threshold and can suffer a lot to benefit others. Dorje Shugden is not as punitive and vengeful as he may appear to be. He was acting according to the karmic needs of the period and to pave the way for greater things. He would never cause such harm upon any of his practitioners unless it is for the benefit of all beings. Otherwise, why do so many Dorje Shugden practitioners today have receive nothing but benefit and blessings.

4. I have my questions about the Yellow Book but how the heck did all this get turned into a ban against Dorje Shugden anyways? Are you sure this is the correct source for the ban because it's not substantial.

If you read the article posted on this website, it is said to be the catalyst for the ban. It is not the actual cause. It makes sense because similar stories were written into earlier text by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and there was no uproar on that aspect. Even if we examine the reasons the Dalai Lama gave on why he considers Dorje Shugden to be a harmful spirit. It doesn't hold water. Nothing about the Dorje Shugden ban is truly logical if you really try to reason it out. That is why it is said that perhaps the ban is also a manifestation by the Dalai Lama to propel the practice into the world. Why else does the Dalai Lama risk his reputation, the harmony of his people and risk so much damage just to enforce a ban on a deity? There must tremendous benefit and reason for this.

I hope my explanations help you.

[gbds3jewels]

Thank you Big Uncle and Thor for your replies. I will try to read more and see where my "investigation " takes me. It would indeed be very interesting to get to the root cause of why such a controversial ban comes about which to what I have read to date has caused tremendous heartache to many monks. It absolutely does not make sense for the Dalai Lama to instigate such a ban unless the prove is solid and concrete. There must be more substantial proof as to why His Holiness would call for the ban. Everything about this ban and it's impact of the lives of monks and practitioners are against what the Dalai Lam embodies which is compassion. What is the real hidden secret behind the Dalai Lama calling this ban and why did H.H. pick Dorje Shugden? From I understand from Buddhism! nothing about what these highly attained beings/lamas do are coincidence? So what does the timeline of the Dorje Shugden ban signify? Curious....curious...hmmm....

[thor]

You may also be interested to read the original yellow book text, or at least the translated version:
http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Yellow-Book.pdf

As to your question about why the ban really came about, there is a wealth of information in this section of the website. You may like to read it:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/controversy/