Author Topic: Liar, Liar!!!  (Read 6375 times)

vajratruth

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Liar, Liar!!!
« on: January 21, 2013, 12:05:04 PM »
In a matter of 2 years, I have gone from being a sympathiser of the Tibetan cause to being a skeptic of the CTA's actions and the motivations behind their every move. This has arisen principally out of my inability no matter how hard I try, to reconcile the actions and policies of the CTA (the reality) with the message and impression (the illusion) they have given to the world. If there is one thing the Lord Buddha taught, it is that we are to thoroughly investigate everything we are being told, against facts and logic. Buddhism after all is a science of logic and not an art of deception and it is here that I have serious misgivings with the CTA's ongoing deception of its own people and the public at large.

Below are excerpts from yet another CTA-initiated report on human rights condition in Tibet compiled by the Dharamshala-based rights group, Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy (TCHRD). First the TCHRD reported that 29 Tibetans have been imprisoned “without procedural guarantees and due legal process". I am glad that the group understands the meaning of due process because I would like to ask them what kind of due process the CTA undertook before it banned the Dorje Shugden worship and sent its practitioners into hiding underground in fear of persecutions. I would like to ask the TCHRD to respond to this question because if they have concerns for 29 individuals, surely they must be prepared to bear even heavier concerns for the tens of thousands of Shugden worshippers who have had oppression being inflicted upon them without any procedural guarantees and due process.

As for the TCHRD's call on Beijing to “respect Tibetan people’s right to self-determination and their right to preserve and promote their culture, identity, religion and language”, I would put it to the group that the Communist Government of China accords more rights of self determination to Tibetans in Tibet than the CTA does to its people in exile. China's efforts in preserving Tibetan Buddhist Culture is undeniable and their appreciation of human rights can be shown in the way they have not forced Tibetan school children to learn Mandarin instead of the Tibetan language. In Tibetan schools, it is compulsory to study the Chinese, English and Tibetan language.

How can TCHRD demand Tibetan people's right to self determination from China when the CTA is prohibiting any dialogue on Tibet's independence and also all discussions about the Shugden ban? How can the group show such chronic hypocrisy? Are they not aware that such two-facedness creates doubts about the CTA's credibility and their sincerity. Such news are read on the internet the world over not by uneducated peasants but by people with the ability to check and research and have the power of deduction. And the truth is China has embarked upon an effective program to preserve the Tibetan culture whilst improving the living standards of Tibetans while the CTA is still treating its people like mushrooms.

The group accuses China of violating the rights of Tibetans to practice their own religion. And all this time, China has been rebuilding monasteries, sponsoring monks to study the Dharma, sponsoring a Tibetan Buddhist Dictionary, sending lamas abroad to teach Tibetan Buddhism and have even upheld the tradition of the Karmapa and the Panchen Lama. All Tibetans have the right to practice their own tradition without fear or favour. How can China be violating their religious rights?

The CTA on the hand still maintains the Dorje Shugden ban, and in addition they meddled in the sectarian affairs of the Karmapas. By doing so, they politicized Buddhism, created a schism in the sangha community, instilled fear and a loss of confidence in monastic careers, and endangered the Dharma. How come the TCHRD can miss a religion ban right under their nose and yet claim to be accurate about religious persecutions in China's Tibet? Are they incompetent or just blatantly dishonest?

Reports like this show deviousness and does more damage than good to the  reputation of the Tibetan government and its apparatus. In the end it is the ordinary Tibetan who suffers the consequences of the CTA's dishonesty as outsiders and Tibet sympathizers withdraw support in the face of such deceit. 

It would appear that the TCHRD has no appreciation of the value of the Buddha's teachings. So, let's try the Bible instead - in Matthew 7:3 it is written: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye"?

Rights situation in Tibet ‘hit a new low’ in 2012, says new report
Phayul
[Thursday, January 17, 2013 23:24]

DHARAMSHALA, January 17: Human rights situation in Tibet in the year 2012 “hit a new low” according to a new report published by the Dharamshala based rights group Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy.


The 108-page report, which is available for download, recorded wide-ranging human rights violations in Tibet including arbitrary arrests and detention, torture, language rights, self-immolation protests and language rights.

The group, which has been monitoring human rights situation inside Tibet for over a decade now, confirmed the detention and imprisonment of 269 known Tibetans in 2012, taking the total number of known political prisoners according to its database to 988.

TCHRD said that out of the 269 imprisoned last year, 29 were sentenced “without procedural guarantees and due legal process while the fate of 218 remains unknown.”


Along with the Annual Report, the group also released a special report titled Religious Repression in Tibet providing “an in-depth analysis of the internationally protected right to freedom of religion and belief, and the ways in which the government of the PRC is continuously and systematically violating it in the context of Tibetan Buddhism.”

In its Annual Report, TCHRD makes a number of recommendations to the Government of PRC, urging China to “hold itself accountable to both its international and domestic law obligations.”

The group urged China to “investigate the real causes of Tibetan self-immolation protests and refrain from criminalising those who engage in such protests.”

TCHRD also called on Beijing to “stop political education party propaganda campaigns and anti-Dalai Lama campaigns” and “respect Tibetan people’s right to self-determination and their right to preserve and promote their culture, identity, religion and language.”

[Source: http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=32867&article=Rights+situation+in+Tibet+%E2%80%98hit+a+new+low%E2%80%99+in+2012%2c+says+new+report


Supporting articles:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/is-it-interference/

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/tibetan-buddhism-erosion-from-within-or-without/

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-karmapas-and-the-forbidden-buddha/

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china-to-bring-out-dictionary-on-tibetan-buddhism/1019713
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 06:22:50 PM by vajratruth »

Lineageholder

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 12:36:23 PM »
Dear vajratruth,

We Shugden practitioners are often accused by the CTA of being Chinese sympathisers, being paid by the Chinese, etc, etc.  What evidence is there, and where is it, that the Chinese are  "rebuilding monasteries, sponsoring monks to study the Dharma, sponsoring a Tibetan Buddhist Dictionary, sending lamas abroad to teach Tibetan Buddhism and have even upheld the tradition of the Karmapa and the Panchen Lama. All Tibetans have the right to practice their own tradition without fear or favour." 

It's wonderful if it's true.

vajratruth

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 07:41:23 PM »
Dear vajratruth,

We Shugden practitioners are often accused by the CTA of being Chinese sympathisers, being paid by the Chinese, etc, etc.  What evidence is there, and where is it, that the Chinese are  "rebuilding monasteries, sponsoring monks to study the Dharma, sponsoring a Tibetan Buddhist Dictionary, sending lamas abroad to teach Tibetan Buddhism and have even upheld the tradition of the Karmapa and the Panchen Lama. All Tibetans have the right to practice their own tradition without fear or favour." 

It's wonderful if it's true.


Dear Lineageholder,

I have posted some supporting articles below. The simple truth is that the CTA labels anyone who does not agree with them to be Chinese spies or sympathizers. This is how their gag the voice of democracy, by turning the Tibetan people against each other. Not only are Shugden practitioners labeled as Chinese sympathizers but also those demanding for Tibet's independence. Samdhong Rinpoche referred to both Shugden practitioners and pro-independent Tibetans as spies and terrorists. How odd...if Shugden practitioners are Chinese sympathizers, why would they be labelled the same those who oppose Chinese sovereignty? The accusations by the CTA need not have a single element of truth nor do they have to obey the laws of logic.

If anyone should be regarded as a Chinese sympathizer, it must be the CTA themselves! Why else would the Tibetan government support and endorse Orgyen Trinley, Tai Situpa's candidate for the seat of the 17th Karmapa when they have no business getting involved in sectarian matters of the Karma Kagyu at all? Why not support Thaye Dorje, whom three law courts of India have upheld to be the rightful possessor of the Runtek seat, which entitles him to be recognized as the rightful 17th Karmapa? Wouldn't endorsing a Chinese-recognised Karmapa give China a handle on one of the largest Tibetan sects and a position of influence in Sikkim? Why would the CTA wish to incite schism amongst the Karma Kagyus like they did to the Gelugpas with the Shugden ban? How can any of these decisions be good for Tibetan harmony and if there is no unity, how can the Tibetans reach consensus and support a single goal? Isn't the CTA doing the job of the opposition in splitting the Tibetans? Does that not make them pro-Chinese? Tai Situpa Rinpoche has extremely close links with the Chinese government and is a frequent visitors to China's corridors of power and yet it is the Kundeling Rinpoche who is accused of being a spy simply because he has visited China two or three times according to Tibetan intelligence. And what is more, Kundeling Rinpoche lives in India. Why would a Chinese sympathizer put up with being robbed of his position and monastic assets as well as the persecutions when he could so easily move to China's Tibet and rebuild?

The CTA stopped making sense a long time ago and as time passes they are much less able to fool the people and the public. What has the CTA done since its inception that has been good for the Tibetan cause? Nothing, and yet they accuse devoted Shugden practitioners who want no part in politics but instead just wish to be allowed to practice their faith peacefully, to be Chinese spies, Chinese sympathizers and terrorists. How terribly un-Buddhist of the CTA.



http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/is-it-interference/

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/tibetan-buddhism-erosion-from-within-or-without/

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-karmapas-and-the-forbidden-buddha/

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china-to-bring-out-dictionary-on-tibetan-buddhism/1019713

Namdrol

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 08:11:51 PM »
Like I said in the other post, CTA consists of a bunch of useless hypocrites, they are not really interested in preserving their own Tibetan Buddhism, but merely using it to manipulate the world into getting sympathy for themselves.

CTA is stupid to not realize that without Tibetan Buddhism, nobody in the world will give two hoots about them. Think of it, what comes to mind when people mention Tibetan? It could only be high lamas, Dalai Lama, Buddhism, nothing else. And yet, CTA does not see this, but shoot themselves on their feet by supressing their own jewel - Tibetan Buddhism, in prticular they ways they treat Shugden practitioners, thereby undermining the Gelug lineage, which is the most prominent Tibetan Buddhism lineage.


Ensapa

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 03:44:08 AM »
The CTA have a lot of writers at their disposal including robert thurman and george drefyus to diffuse the lies to the world. All of CTA's reports on Tibet are skewed. The scenario is almost always that a Tibetan decides to break the rules because he/she thinks it is okay or they just want to and have no regard for the laws of the land, and then the Chinese police come and arrest them, and then they say it's cruelty. There was one case where a temple decided to built a huge statue of Guru Rinpoche on a mountain -- but without first obtaining the proper permits or going through the proper procedures. The statue was consequently destroyed and the abbot of the temple was arrested. Then the article was advertised online as China restricting religious freedom and destroying Buddhism in Tibet. So now do you see how things are twisted around? So what if they have a 150 page report that ignores all the restoration works that China is doing and also China giving stipends to each ordained sangha member, and the Buddhist council? It's just baloney designed to buy sympathy from the masses...buying sympathy is only short term. Eventually everyone else will not trust CTA anymore.

DharmaDefender

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2013, 04:09:56 AM »
The CTA have a lot of writers at their disposal including robert thurman and george drefyus to diffuse the lies to the world. All of CTA's reports on Tibet are skewed. The scenario is almost always that a Tibetan decides to break the rules because he/she thinks it is okay or they just want to and have no regard for the laws of the land, and then the Chinese police come and arrest them, and then they say it's cruelty. There was one case where a temple decided to built a huge statue of Guru Rinpoche on a mountain -- but without first obtaining the proper permits or going through the proper procedures. The statue was consequently destroyed and the abbot of the temple was arrested. Then the article was advertised online as China restricting religious freedom and destroying Buddhism in Tibet. So now do you see how things are twisted around? So what if they have a 150 page report that ignores all the restoration works that China is doing and also China giving stipends to each ordained sangha member, and the Buddhist council? It's just baloney designed to buy sympathy from the masses...buying sympathy is only short term. Eventually everyone else will not trust CTA anymore.


Hahahaha your first line was brilliant, a lot of writers at their disposal. Pity because Thurman as much of a wanker he is, is a brilliant scholar and writer independent of any reliance on the CTA for pocket money and his daughter for fame.

But your post has merit in that the CTA do seem to twist things around for their benefit. In the case of that Guru Rinpoche statue, why provoke the Chinese government by not following the law of the land? Why not get a permit and find some way of getting along with the officials to have the statue built? The incident your referring to can be found here: http://tibetanbuddhism.tribe.net/thread/cc424e3a-7f03-4201-a1de-b24da06ec844

Quote
Statue destroyed at Samye topic posted Sun, June 17, 2007 - 7:52 AM by  Mark   
Fri Jun 15, 11:21 PM ET
BEIJING - Chinese authorities have demolished a statue of a Buddhist master at Tibet's oldest monastery, an activist group said Friday, the latest act in what critics say is an effort by Beijing to dilute Tibet's unique Buddhist culture.

International Campaign for Tibet blamed the mid-May demolition of the 30-foot-tall, gold-and-copper plated statue of Guru Rinpoche on "aggressive enforcement" of measures introduced in Tibet this year that regulate the construction of outdoor religious statues.

"Even if Samye monastery had arranged for the construction of the Guru Rinpoche statue, the monastery would still have had to apply to higher Communist authorities for permission," the Washington-based group said in a statement.

Chinese authorities said in a statement posted on the Web site of the China Tibet Information Center that the statue's construction was against the law. The June 9 statement, signed by the Democratic Management Committee of Samye monastery, said the monastery "moved the open-air statue," but did not elaborate.

A man who gave his name as Guo at the State Administration of Religious Affairs press office in Beijing said he had no information on the case. Calls to various Tibetan government officials went unanswered Friday.

Guru Rinpoche, also known as Padmasambhava, was said to have established Buddhism in Tibet in the 8th century and laid the foundation for the Samye monastery.

Buddhism is part of nearly every aspect of daily life for ordinary Tibetans. China views this devotion to the religion and the Dalai Lama, who lives in exile in India, as a threat to its supremacy.


Its also hypocritical for the International Campaign for Tibet to make that statement. Whats wrong with applying to the higher Communist authorities for permission? In Washington, if you want to extend your house greatly, you have to apply for permission. Here in the UK if you want to extend your house, build a conservatory, etc you have to apply for permission from the council. So whats so bad about applying for permission from the higher Communist authorities?

You almost get the sense that the Tibetans are doing it on purpose, and they want everything their way when in reality, its never going to be like that anymore because Tibet is no longer isolated. Interesting how for Buddhists, they never seem to get on with themselves and their occupiers despite all the teachings on compassion and emptiness, and non-attachment!

Does it give you hope for the Dorje Shugden ban to be lifted, given that it is implemented by such an inept government and ignorant people? Why?

diamond girl

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2013, 07:12:55 AM »
Actually, the only way the CTA can redeem itself and gain any respect from others is to distinguish the administration from the Dalai Lama. This is not to say that they go against the Dalai Lama - of course not - but that it is independent of the Dalai Lama's spiritual governance. This is because the CTA is SECULAR.

As a SECULAR administration, the CTA should immediately cease the ban on Dorje Shugden. This would show that the CTA is fair to all its people and also all subject matters. The fact that CTA still meddles their hands in the Dorje Shugden issue only tells me that they REALLY have nothing to show for in terms on their own achievements and so hangs on to this issue which has garnered much publicity. I just think that CTA is using the DS issue to have some existence for themselves!!!!

How sad if I am right???? CTA has done nothing worth talking about except get criticized... SO YES FOCUS ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND DO SOMETHING PURPOSEFUL...

Ensapa

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2013, 10:44:09 AM »

Hahahaha your first line was brilliant, a lot of writers at their disposal. Pity because Thurman as much of a wanker he is, is a brilliant scholar and writer independent of any reliance on the CTA for pocket money and his daughter for fame.

But your post has merit in that the CTA do seem to twist things around for their benefit. In the case of that Guru Rinpoche statue, why provoke the Chinese government by not following the law of the land? Why not get a permit and find some way of getting along with the officials to have the statue built? The incident your referring to can be found here: http://tibetanbuddhism.tribe.net/thread/cc424e3a-7f03-4201-a1de-b24da06ec844

Quote
Statue destroyed at Samye topic posted Sun, June 17, 2007 - 7:52 AM by  Mark   
Fri Jun 15, 11:21 PM ET
BEIJING - Chinese authorities have demolished a statue of a Buddhist master at Tibet's oldest monastery, an activist group said Friday, the latest act in what critics say is an effort by Beijing to dilute Tibet's unique Buddhist culture.

International Campaign for Tibet blamed the mid-May demolition of the 30-foot-tall, gold-and-copper plated statue of Guru Rinpoche on "aggressive enforcement" of measures introduced in Tibet this year that regulate the construction of outdoor religious statues.

"Even if Samye monastery had arranged for the construction of the Guru Rinpoche statue, the monastery would still have had to apply to higher Communist authorities for permission," the Washington-based group said in a statement.

Chinese authorities said in a statement posted on the Web site of the China Tibet Information Center that the statue's construction was against the law. The June 9 statement, signed by the Democratic Management Committee of Samye monastery, said the monastery "moved the open-air statue," but did not elaborate.

A man who gave his name as Guo at the State Administration of Religious Affairs press office in Beijing said he had no information on the case. Calls to various Tibetan government officials went unanswered Friday.

Guru Rinpoche, also known as Padmasambhava, was said to have established Buddhism in Tibet in the 8th century and laid the foundation for the Samye monastery.

Buddhism is part of nearly every aspect of daily life for ordinary Tibetans. China views this devotion to the religion and the Dalai Lama, who lives in exile in India, as a threat to its supremacy.


Its also hypocritical for the International Campaign for Tibet to make that statement. Whats wrong with applying to the higher Communist authorities for permission? In Washington, if you want to extend your house greatly, you have to apply for permission. Here in the UK if you want to extend your house, build a conservatory, etc you have to apply for permission from the council. So whats so bad about applying for permission from the higher Communist authorities?

You almost get the sense that the Tibetans are doing it on purpose, and they want everything their way when in reality, its never going to be like that anymore because Tibet is no longer isolated. Interesting how for Buddhists, they never seem to get on with themselves and their occupiers despite all the teachings on compassion and emptiness, and non-attachment!

Does it give you hope for the Dorje Shugden ban to be lifted, given that it is implemented by such an inept government and ignorant people? Why?


Yes that is the exact article that I am referring to. In another pro-Tibetan website it was said that the Chinese was restricting freedom and destroying Buddhadharma (thats something that is very far-fetched, especially from the truth) and even here in asia if anyone wants to build something in the forest or mountains they have to apply for a permit first and if they fail to do so the structure will be destroyed. I dont think that the Tibetans are doing this deliberately, it is rather that they just do not have any sense of respect for the laws of the land or concern for rules and regulations and they allow themselves to be this way. When rules and regulations are imposed on them they try to use Buddhism as an excuse...perhaps its their refusal to live under such conditions that makes them want Tibet back?

In any case, I wont be surprised if the Dorje Shugden ban presses the CTA to be weaker and weaker over time...perhaps that is the intent of the Dalai Lama all along?

Lineageholder

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 11:20:46 AM »

If anyone should be regarded as a Chinese sympathizer, it must be the CTA themselves! Why else would the Tibetan government support and endorse Orgyen Trinley, Tai Situpa's candidate for the seat of the 17th Karmapa when they have no business getting involved in sectarian matters of the Karma Kagyu at all? Why not support Thaye Dorje, whom three law courts of India have upheld to be the rightful possessor of the Runtek seat, which entitles him to be recognized as the rightful 17th Karmapa? Wouldn't endorsing a Chinese-recognised Karmapa give China a handle on one of the largest Tibetan sects and a position of influence in Sikkim? Why would the CTA wish to incite schism amongst the Karma Kagyus like they did to the Gelugpas with the Shugden ban? How can any of these decisions be good for Tibetan harmony and if there is no unity, how can the Tibetans reach consensus and support a single goal? Isn't the CTA doing the job of the opposition in splitting the Tibetans?

Dear vajratruth,

Yes, this confused me too - after all, the CTA were really upset when the Chinese recognised their own candidate for Panchen Lama, but it's okay to accept a Chinese recognised candidate for the Karmapa?  It doesn't make any sense at all.  Traditionally the Sharmapa has recognised the next incarnation of the Karmapa and the DL has no say in this at all, much less the Chinese!  It would have made more sense to accept Thaye Dorje.

These are strange times.

samayakeeper

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 02:33:31 PM »
Actually, the only way the CTA can redeem itself and gain any respect from others is to distinguish the administration from the Dalai Lama. This is not to say that they go against the Dalai Lama - of course not - but that it is independent of the Dalai Lama's spiritual governance. This is because the CTA is SECULAR.

As a SECULAR administration, the CTA should immediately cease the ban on Dorje Shugden. This would show that the CTA is fair to all its people and also all subject matters. The fact that CTA still meddles their hands in the Dorje Shugden issue only tells me that they REALLY have nothing to show for in terms on their own achievements and so hangs on to this issue which has garnered much publicity. I just think that CTA is using the DS issue to have some existence for themselves!!!!

How sad if I am right???? CTA has done nothing worth talking about except get criticized... SO YES FOCUS ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND DO SOMETHING PURPOSEFUL...



CTA thrives on politics, just like a peacock thrives on poisons. And like other politicians thrive on making wars. Politics and wars bring in the big bucks.

It's always the innocent that suffer but do these people care? They won't understand what is human rights because most of them aren't humane. And they are doing something purposeful, to fill their pockets and their big fat ego with power and control.

Ensapa

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 03:53:13 AM »
Actually, the only way the CTA can redeem itself and gain any respect from others is to distinguish the administration from the Dalai Lama. This is not to say that they go against the Dalai Lama - of course not - but that it is independent of the Dalai Lama's spiritual governance. This is because the CTA is SECULAR.

As a SECULAR administration, the CTA should immediately cease the ban on Dorje Shugden. This would show that the CTA is fair to all its people and also all subject matters. The fact that CTA still meddles their hands in the Dorje Shugden issue only tells me that they REALLY have nothing to show for in terms on their own achievements and so hangs on to this issue which has garnered much publicity. I just think that CTA is using the DS issue to have some existence for themselves!!!!

How sad if I am right???? CTA has done nothing worth talking about except get criticized... SO YES FOCUS ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND DO SOMETHING PURPOSEFUL...

The CTA will never do that simply because they are too stuck up on politics and also too stuck up on getting on the Dalai Lama's good side. Basically, they want to only benefit themselves while serving in a government and if it means destroying the Dalai Lama's enemies to get his blessings, so be it and they will do it without hesitation although it is a very un-buddhistic thing to do. They have lost their sense of what is right and what is wrong and threw their logic and reasoning out the window. In that sense and in that vein, CTA is nothing more but a lost cause that will eventually implode under the heavy negative karma that they have accumulated over the centuries.

Gabby Potter

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 12:32:24 PM »
What the CTA is best at is accusing Dorje Shugden practitioners for being something we are not and put the blame on someone else even if it meant hurting the others either emotionally or physically. I really do pity those who don't see through their real intention and still further support them for whatever they are doing. I hope that more people will see through their lies and confront them.

kris

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Re: Liar, Liar!!!
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2015, 01:11:27 PM »
May be it is just a very convenient for CTA to play the victim role to suck up political donations from other countries. Buddhism has taught us to be responsible for the outcome, but it does not seem like CTA is taking responsibilities for what happened in 1959, and after 50 over years, they still want to blame China and don't want to own up. I don't agree with China did in 1959, but that does not help anything. If CTA wants to progress, CTA needs to learn to grow up and learn to stand on their own.