Interesting Facebook page by NKT : We Need to Talk About Shugden

[christine V]

Fruitful discussions on Facebook about the Shugden /
Anti Dalai Lama campaign with NKT followers
July 10, 2014 by tenpel

The Facebook group Talk about Shugden – which I cannot follow due to not being on FB – seems to offer a useful discussion between ill informed NKT zealots and more informed or at least more reasonable and openly investigating people. Here an excerpt which was sent to me based on my request to give an example … In the following discussion you find an exploration of the term “ban” that’s implied meaning in Western context was already rejected by Prof. Thurman, a Tibetologist. Also the Dalai Lama repeatedly said, that he never used the term “ban”. According to the information I got, the term His Holiness the Dalai Lama uses is tenpey nangpey which means determine, not ban, in Tibetan ban means khagdhom.
Is there a Tibetan word that means ‘ban’ as understood by native English speakers?

By Steve Maxwell on Tuesday, July 1, 2014 at 9:37pm

Silling was having a conversation on fb: wnttas recently where it became clear that Tibetans do not even have a word for ‘ban’ that carries the same meaning to a native English speaker.

Inspired by this and a posting by Khyenrab (posted below) I posed a few questions. The arena is here:

Gen la Khyenrab For those who still claim that there is no ban: The words mostly used are bkag.sdom.byed.pa and its synonym dam.bskrags.byed.pa meaning “ban,” “prohibition,” “restriction,” “restraint;” New Light English-Tibetan Dictionary compiled by T.G. Dongthog, Library of Tibetan Works and Archives (LTWA), Dharamsala, 1985, Second Edition, p. 31, p. 352, p. 383, p. 382; also, in Tibetan, one term is used to define the other: bkag.sdom byed.pa: gang jung byed michog pa’i dam.bsrags byed.pa, Bod Gya Tsig Zoed Chenmo (The Chinese – Tibetan Dictionary), People’s Publishing House, Beijing, Second Edition, 1996. The word bkod.‘doms, “order to stop,” “ban” is used in Resolution No. 21 of the Assembly of Tibetan People’s Deputies prohibiting Dorje Shugden in very strong terms as to “never ever” permit the practice, that is, from now until forever. In addition, Resolution No. 21 refers to the 13th and 14th Dalai Lama’s use of the word bkag.’gog, “order” and “prohibition” “to stop” or “to take out forcibly.” The Private Office of the Dalai Lama in a letter to the abbot of Sermay Monastery in Bylakuppe, March 30th, 1996 mentions a ban (bkag.sdom and dam.bsgrags bkag.sdom) by the 13th Dalai Lama to justify the prohibition of Dorje Shugden on the basis of the so-called “prophecies” by government oracles pointing towards danger to the health of the Dalai Lama and the cause of Tibet. On May 8th, 1996 in a public address in Dharamsala (on video tape), for example, the Dalai Lama says, “It has been twenty years since I first mentioned the Dorje Shugden public restriction (ngas dam.bsdrags byed..pa.yin). Also, in an address on May 5, 1996, the Dalai Lama say, “It may have been about ten years ago. While giving a lam.rim teaching at Drepung, I once gave my reasons for issuing the ban.” (Tibetan: dam.bskrags); Select Addresses of His Holiness the Dalai Lama on the Issue of Propitiating Protector Deities, Sherig Parkhang, Dharamsala, July 10, 1996, p. 175; and “In this way came the reasons, on account of which I have issued the ban (Tibetan: dam.bsgrags) in recent times. In banning [this reliance on Shugden], many came forward and declared that henceforth they will abide by my injunctions….” p. 183. Also, the term dgag.bya spyi nan shugs cher bstsal.rjes or “strong prohibition emphatically proclaimed” is used in Report No. 28/7.8/1997 by the exile Tibetan version of [India’s most secret police] RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) of the Department of Security in Dharamsala, “Specifically, after issuing an emphatic ban at his [the Dalai Lama] spring teachings of 1996, most of the Tibetans living in exile and within Tibet, who are gifted with intelligence and patriotism, have respectfully complied and appreciatively mended their faith accordingly.” When a Swiss journalist asks the Dalai Lama on camera, “Why this ban?” he answers, “Tibetan Buddhism is such a profound tradition. …etc.” The Dalai Lama does not deny a ban when asked “Why the ban?” Swiss TV DRS Series “10 vor 10,” “Bruderzwist,” * broadcast Jan. 5-9, 1998. Also, the Dalai himself refers to his “restriction” of Dorje Shugden as a “harsh step,” quoted in an Announcement by Kashag (Cabinet), May 22, 1996.

Steve Maxwell This is an exploration of Gen la Khyenrab’s post of 27 June at 11:44 which I have just read.

1. I don’t intend to engage in an extended debate, I do not have the intellect or knowledge of the Tibetan language for that.

2. There is a dispute about whether the Dalai Lama has issued a ban against the practice of Dorje Shugden.

3. In part this relies on the words that he used, and how these words have been understood by his supporters and by Shugden supporters.

4. There is an assumption here that the word ‘ban’, while a convenient expression in English, is understood to have the same meaning to Tibetans. If there is ambiguity about its translation / meaning then there is the opportunity for conflict. If the concept of ‘ban’, in an English sense is not precisely the same in a Tibetan sense; then when each side claim and counter-claim there will be no common ground.

6. Notwithstanding dictionary definitions (as quoted by Gel la Khyenrab) is bkag.sdom.byed.pa synonymous with dam.bskrags.byed.pa? Do they have the same meaning? That is, are they widely understood to be the same meaning by Tibetan’s? Do they both mean ‘ban’ by non-Tibetans? Or is there a ‘softer’ meaning such as ‘restriction’ rather than ban?

7. By now it will come as no surprise that I think there is such a difference. ‘Ban’ is easy to fit on placards, fits easily into chants, but probably does not convey the full comprehensive meaning in Tibetan, for Tibetans, of what the Dalai Lama intended.

8. Gen la Khyenrab, please tell us where (minutes and seconds please) in which video, the Dalai Lama uses the expressions bkag.sdom.byed.pa and dam.bskrags.byed.pa. (your expressions since I am no Tibetan scholar, The Dalai Lama may say something slightly different.)

9. Here I focus on just the words, there are plenty of other discussions to be had, I prefer not to muddy the waters with these.


Jamyang Dakpa The phrase bkag.sdom.byed.pa is far different from dam.bskrags.byed.pa. HH never used bkag.sdom.byed.pa as far as I know.

The word dam.bskrags.byed.pa is used when you are urging to do something. But bkag.sdom.byed.pa is used when you are ordering. HH never ordered to stop worshiping Dhogyal so there is no reason to use the phrase **

Kelsang Jangdom Hi Steve Maxwell

In a Resolution about this issue published on the Dalai Lama’s own website it says

“7. Together with documents pertaining to this ban on the worship of Dholgyal, this Congress will urge each and every spiritual master, including geshes, that in the interest of the health of the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Independence, they should stop worshipping Dholgyal;”

Check it out – point 7 (of 9).

http://www.dalailama.com/…/dolgyal-shugden/tyc-resolution

This shows the influential Tibetan Youth Congress describe it as a ban.

Kelsang Jangdom Regarding the ban, this quote comes from the following article: Condemned to Silence: A Tibetan Identity Crisis 1996-1999 by Ursula Bernis, p. 11,

“In March 1996, His Holiness strongly advised his followers not to rely on the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden because, according to the prophecies of his oracles, Dorje Shugden harms the institution of Dalai Lama, his life, his government, and the cause of Tibet. Immediately government offices promulgated this advice, stated in no uncertain terms by the Dalai Lama, and turned it into a full-fledged ban”

http://www.shugdensociety.info/pdfs/BernisResearch.pdf ***

Steve Maxwell Kelsang Jangdom, I am not yet convinced that the authors are using the word ‘ban’ in that same sense that natural English speakers are using it. Which Is why I was asking Khyenrab, or preferably a natural Tibetan speaker, where in the video does HH The Dalai Lama use the Tibetan words specified. Specifically at what times were each word used in which video.

Your reply about the resolution, point 7 does not quote the words of the Dalai Lama; and it is what he says that is disputed here. Revealingly though, the quote that you use does illustrate the point that I am making. It says, “Congress will urge …”, The word ‘urge’ does not carry the same sense of compulsion that the word ‘ban’ carries.

I have not yet read your later reply.

Atisha’s Cook Steve – it’s disingenuous in the extreme to claim there’s no ban.
about an hour ago · Like · 4

Gen la Khyenrab Debating ‘no ban’ is a waste of time – Steve is just wasting time
44 minutes ago · Like · 2

Steve Maxwell Kelsang Jangdom, your quote, “In March 1996, His Holiness strongly advised his followers not to rely on the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden …”

Again you support the point that I am making. ‘His Holiness strongly advised’, is not the sort of wording a person would normally use when describing a ‘ban’.

Gen la Khyenrab, a pity that you think so lightly about clarifying a key issue such as where and when did HH Dalai Lama say the equivalent of ‘ban’ in Tibetan. You spent some time in your earlier post quoting from dictionaries, all that I am asking for is at what time, in which videos did he use words that you interpret as ‘ban’.

Atisha’s Cook, I know that there are many other issues. I know that the restrictions placed on Shugden practitioners have upset people (yes I know you would put that much more strongly). Since Gen la lists the Tibetan words, and I don’t know Tibetan, in the interest of clarity I would like to know where HH The Dalai Lama uses them.

line-gothic

Here is another discussion with Gen Kelsang Khyenrab (see comment section) on the Hindustan Times: http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/chandigarh/pro-china-group-harming-cause-says-tibetan-leader/article1-1237684.aspx
Brief annotations

* This video Khyenrab is referring to is from a series of documentaries and was the start of it. This documentary has created a lot of controversy in Switzerland (see “Dorje Shugden Übersicht – Quelle: Tibet Focus“), and was not only criticized by Tibetans but also by journalists and researchers for its one-sidedness and sensationalist approach that missed to ask Tibet experts, and believed blindly in whatever was told to the film makers.

The magazine had to apologize to the public for the the one-sided report defending themselves “We are an infotainment-magazine and not a research institution.” At the end they produced a new documentary to balance the faults of the first documentary – that has become now so widespread on YouTube and which Khyenrab is referring to. In that documentary the same magazine interviewed for the first time the Indian police and a researcher, and look, things shine in quite another light, and the TV magazine had to correct many of their former claims.

However, this ‘self-correcting documentary’ has never been translated into English nor is there an English version of it on YouTube – balanced information seems to be too boring … The documentary can be seen here in German only.

** A senior Tibetan scholar wrote in an email today:

    Dam-sgrags, which is the term cited as the term His Holiness has used, is translated as “restriction” in Goldstein’s Tibetan-English Dictionary of Modern Tibetan. In Bod-rgya tshig-mdzod chen-mo it is defined as ‘khrims-kyis ‘doms-pa’am do-dam btsan-po, which means a regulation or strong directive (made) by law.  It is clear from the Chinese translations in the dictionary and the examples of the usage of the term that it means a regulation restricting something, like a directive for a curfew  regulating when or where you can and cannot go walking  at night. This does not have the same connotation as a ban.

    We need to differentiate what His Holiness has actually said and what various departments in the Central Tibetan administration have said.

____________

So this mean CTA should not have
1) ban people in their parliament
2) going to school
3) going to sundry shop

CTA, why are you
1) threaten your own people if there are no ban
2) have special identity card to differentiate Dorje Shugden practitioner or not?

[vajratruth]

Fruitful discussions on Facebook about the Shugden /
Anti Dalai Lama campaign with NKT followers
July 10, 2014 by tenpel

The Facebook group Talk about Shugden – which I cannot follow due to not being on FB – seems to offer a useful discussion between ill informed NKT zealots and more informed or at least more reasonable and openly investigating people. Here an excerpt which was sent to me based on my request to give an example … In the following discussion you find an exploration of the term “ban” that’s implied meaning in Western context was already rejected by Prof. Thurman, a Tibetologist. Also the Dalai Lama repeatedly said, that he never used the term “ban”. According to the information I got, the term His Holiness the Dalai Lama uses is tenpey nangpey which means determine, not ban, in Tibetan ban means khagdhom.
Is there a Tibetan word that means ‘ban’ as understood by native English speakers?

That the Dalai Lama could not have imposed a ban on the Dorje Shugden practice simply because the word 'ban' was not used by the Dalai Lama, must surely be the most desperate argument to date. It serves no purpose other than to distract people from the fact that the Dalai Lama and CTA committed a heinous wrong and continue to twist facts and words to avoid culpability. They cannot of course and for the Dalai Lama and his followers including Thurman to continue to do so just shows how morally and intellectually corrupt they truly are. It also shows how little respect they have for the intelligence of those observing this circus.

There are no words in the Tibetan vocabulary for 'guilt' or 'guilty' either but that has not stopped the Dalai Lama and his coterie from pronouncing Dorje Shugden and all his followers to be guilty of the 1997 triple murder? This despite the fact that the culprits (whatever religion they belong to) have never been brought to trial to be judged and sentenced because they have never been caught. Should not the same principle apply?

Anyone with a reasonable mind would be able to see that if the Dalai Lama had not 'banned' the protector practice, then the Dalai Lama and CTA have certainly done all they thought they could get away with, for almost 20 years, to disallow, forcibly discourage, prohibit, bar, and forbid the way a large majority of Tibetan people and an increasing number of Tibetan Buddhist practitioners, choose to express their faith and religion. Ban or no ban, this is wrong. Nothing can change that and to partake in this ridiculous argument would only give it substance when there is none to start with. Already, there is more than enough evidence of a ban in the CTA's own literature and communiques but then again, seeking the the truth has never been the objective with those who must remain blind otherwise there is no choice but to see the Dalai Lama in another light. Denial is easier.

The Shugden issue is not about surtitles, translations, scripts, texts or words. Its about how the Dalai Lama betrayed his own people's trust and forced upon the Tibetan people a new culture of perfidy and lies. It is about how a trusted leader abused his power and suppressed his own people without providing any good reasons simply because there are none. The matter is in fact very simple. If indeed the Dalai Lama had not meant to ban or prohibit Shugden worshippers from their practice, then he should made that clear and formally so. The Dalai Lama should do what is necessary for state machineries to protect the rights of Shugden worshippers instead of being used to legitimise a crime. It is that easy, especially for a "simple Buddhist  monk".

[Big Uncle]

This is all very interesting but it doesn't matter what word is use to describe this restriction on Dorje Shugden. When I was reading the exchange, it sounds like just another diversion away from the real issue at hand. The choice of words does not lessen the damage down on shugden practitioners. It does not take away the threat of violence and segregation with the Tibetan community in India and it does not fuse the Shugden monasteries like Shar Gaden and Serpom back with their main monasteries.

The choice of words does not remove the hundreds to thousands of Tibetan signages all over the Tibetan settlements that prohibit business dealings with Shugden customers. The choice of word does not make it any easier for Shugden Buddhist organizations around the world and it certainly does not mean acceptance of Shugden lamas and practitioners. Personally, I do not find this exchange interesting at all and it does nothing to alleviate the great divide in Tibetan Buddhism.

[Blueupali]

Right, it doesn't matter if the word ' ban' translates as ban or restriction or whatever--- the Dalai Lama didn't SAY please go and kill 10 tibetans to Robert Thurman in the mother Jones article either--- he just said, you know, it'd be okay to eliminate 1 or 10 enemies if it helped the cause of Tibet--- and then some people published a hitlist--- and now we have another hitlist---- I mean, the hit list doesn't have to say, please kill below people, all the Dalai Lama has to do is turn the sentiment against a group--- it's always been like this--- the 5th recognition of the Dalai Lama, was merciless toward the kagyus--- he also didn't like forgive me--- the tulku that arose as Dorje Shugden, and had him murdered....
  so, anyway, since the facebook discussion is pretty useless, I thought I'd share some thoughts on the mass mentality issue of blind faith followers; I feel these words bear very much on this ban,  where people both on this discussion forum and in other places, sometimes wish to promote the Dalai Lama's ideas above all others, and use diversion tactics like what does this word mean in Tibetan....  So here is democracy and the role of religious leaders from the current Dharmakaya, recently Nirmanakaya, may he be reborn swiftly Shamar Rinpoche's Creating a Transparent Democracy, A New Model:

Quote from Shamar Rinpoche, on religious-political leaders---------------

Religious leaders can also be very dangerous for any democratic
system, particularly if they teach their followers to blindly
follow their instructions. If it serves their own personal interests,
these leaders will even ask their followers to act against the national
government or try to make major changes in the country’s laws.
Unfortunately, religious followers, especially when acting together
as a crowd or mob under the inspiration of a charismatic leader,
have a tendency to easily become fanatics.

[icy]

What discussion?  It is clearly a distraction and is a waste of our time.  Many pro-Dalai Lama supporters are bent over to the Dalai Lama for his celebrity status to believe anything but the truth.  This has happened too many times in Facebook.  You can discuss with much evidence until the cows come home and yet they deny themselves the truth.  This is clearly their karmic affinity with the powerful Lord Dorje Shugden is not there yet.  However, we can merely imprint their minds with the truth for the causes to ripen in the future.

[gbds3jewels]

It doesn't matter what words are used because what is implied is sufficient. It's called MANIPULATION and that's what cowards do. People who do not want to take responsibility will try to use various words but what is important is the purpose they want to achieve. In this case the results are what they created and incited. People are not stupid, we can see by the results of your actions not your words! Until the day you speak up and stop the physical and psychological violence and discriminative acts against DS practitioners, whatever you say will only be words of hypocrisy.

[DharmaSpace]

The Arguments by the anti DS as many of you have said is a distraction nothing more.

People don't go to shops or hospitals just because they have misunderstood something. The Tibetan in South India have first hand experience of the ban and how people place placards to tell no Dorje Shugden worshippers allowed. Monasteries do not split because people misunderstand each other. People do not demonstrate because they misunderstood the intentions behind the Dalai Lama words.

The insinuation by Steve is very childish at best and assumes all the Dorje Shugden practitioners did not do their work to clarify with the Dalai Lama and CTA about what the Dalai Lama decree was. A bit of watse of time to debate with Steve.

[vajrastorm]

I fail to see the purpose of this argument about the difference between the English Language and the Tibetan language when it came to giving a suitable English equivalent of the Tibetan word that the Dalai Lama had used in pronouncing the "ban" or "restriction" on the practice of Shugden. Whatever the word, the effect or result were the following. Monks and lay people were asked to officially disengage from Shugden practice.  The consequence on those who, following their strong Guru Devotion, refused to give up the practice, was dire. Immediately, they were cast out of the Tibetan community, and ostracized in ways that were painful. Young and old Shugden practitioners were barred from buying essentials from shops. Schools refused to let them enrol/register to study, and access to hospital and medical facilities were denied them. They were also denied access to travel documents, and more. Two monasteries had to be established for the disenfranchized Shugden practitioners who had been kicked out of their monasteries.Over and above this, there were atrocities committed on a vast scale on Shugden worshippers.Shugden monasteries were attacked and statues were destroyed. Families were split.

If all this point to misinterpretation  by CTA or Dalai Lama loyalists, how come the Dalai Lama just watched and allowed all this to happen.?

[Rihanna]

Whatever was the word used is immaterial already at this juncture. What matters now is that it has resulted in deaths, aggression, abuse, violence and the list goes on. All totally against the principles of what Buddhism stood for: peace , harmony and compassion. We should not even debate about whether this is a divine 'ban' as a result of an act of a Mahasiddha because it has culminated to negative results. How many more lives will be negatively affected while we sit here debating?

[Tenzin Malgyur]

Agree wholeheartedly that the discussion is a distraction to keep the world from seeing the real truth. It really does not matter anymore if there exist a word in Tibetan carrying the meaning equivalent to the word ban in the English language. How do we see the situation in Tibetan camps in India where signs are put outside shops, clinics and monasteries barring Shugden practitioners from entering and seeking medical treatment?
This seems like a last ditch desperate attempt to steer the attention away from the real truth.