The Dalai Lama DID NOT SAY...

[Ensapa]

Uh. This seems to be a sort of the 258:th NKT and tulkus and oracles session here.

Please do not continue. I shall, within two days I hope, write something that hopefully clarifies it all.

But if you wish to continue, by all means do so. Beating a plastic toy horse is a good method. For something.

Well, unfortunately, every organisation has their weak and strong points. And these 2 happen to be NKT's. Even if NKT's stance on them is not questioned in this forum, it will eventually be questioned by everyone, especially when the ban on Dorje Shugden is lifted, so do be prepared to defend NKT with some wise answers instead of "please do not continueeeee" because it does not reflect well. Perhaps, an answer on why Geshe Keslang Gyatso feels that both the oracle and tulku system will not work for NKT would be better imho

[Gabby Potter]

I think that people who came up with all these " smart " ideas have mistakenly taken HH the Dalai Lama's advises the other way round, and did what they think is " right " to please His Holiness, which is totally wrong! Of course His Holiness will not ask us to hurt the others, why would an enlightened being ask us to do things that hurt people? There must be some people stirring things up...

[Dondrup Shugden]

Since this debate on what the Dalai Lama said and what he did not say had been up since 2012, the current events of torture, segregation and discrimination of Shugden devotees definitely would have reached his ears.

Is there denial on the part of HH Dalai Lama?  As an attained and enlightened Being, should the Dalai Lama remain silent and sing his consistent song or have a look at the incidences and put a stop to it.

Whoever the culprit is for these acts of intolerance to Shugden devotees, I am sure he is in the camp of CTA and directly under Dalai Lama's influence if not governance.  Can this culprit and/or the group not be stopped?

I hope that in his compassionate heart, the Dalai Lama will grant religious freedom and lift the ban. 

[fruven]

HHDL's motivation is beyond question or comprehension. We cannot really use our tainted explanations of theories as to why this or the other is said or done. We simply cannot! If we trust HHDL to be who he is, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then we certainly cannot question the motives let alone the reasoning behind it.

Leave your rational mind at the door?  This is not what Buddha taught.  He taught that we should test everything.

We may not be able to see the motivation behind the Dalai Lama's actions directly, but we can see the result - a schism in the Sangha, families at each other's throats, Shugden practitioners being beaten and discriminated against, Shugden statues being destroyed and general spiritual degeneration.

In short, suffering.  There's no evidence that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara; in fact, quite the opposite I'm sorry to say.

When does a Buddha's actions cause suffering?  When do Buddhas disagree with their Spiritual Guides and claim to know better and practise sectarianism towards revered and genuine spiritual practices?

People use these kinds of arguments to justify irrational beliefs such as 'well, we can't really know God, so we cannot say why there is suffering in the world, but if God is the creator,  there must be some good reason for it"

It's just the same; please people, we come from a proud lineage of fine logicians such as Dignaga, Dharmakirti, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Shantideva and Lama Tsongkhapa - please don't appeal to the irrational as an explanation for something that you find unexplainable or unpalatable.  Aren't we supposed to think for ourselves?  It's precisely blind faith that has led to this sectarian ban in the first place - the Dalai Lama's blind faith in the fifth Dalai Lama and his followers blind faith in him.

You are creating a 'bigger picture' - there is no evidence and no logical justification for one.  It's simply blind faith.

We have our own vows to hold and I don't think HHDL is beyond question although it may beyond our comprehension. When we ask questions the motivation is leading to resolving our doubt and more learning or something else?

If one doesn't have any more question:
i) one may understand the message completely, the situation as such and such, actions need to be taken to change this or that, or
ii) one is not interested to further understand the situation and simply accept it as true and correct.
Which one is it?

[yontenjamyang]

More than 3 years since this subject was posted by Namdrol and I replied. Over the last 3 years much has happened except the ban is still not lifted. More protest by the ISC with slogan, "Don't lie" is a constant fixture wherever the Dalai Lama goes in the west. I always wonder, why would a Buddhist group that I respect a lot go out and say the Dalai Lama lied? I know the Dalai Lama did say the Protector is a spirit, a chinese spirit to be exact and also blame the failure of Tibet's independent/autonomy on the Protector. These are lies, but still to protest and led the world see these slogan "Dalai Lama don't lie" was something that piqued my mind. I thought we needed to be diplomatic unless we do not regard him as the real Dalai Lama. And speaking about that, there are slogans of the protestors saying he is a muslim and a fake Dalai Lama. Overall, it is quite a challenge for practitioners of Dorje Shugden, our King and followers of the Dalai Lama's camp.

So, recently, I began to think really deeply about this. My answer came out like this. No Lamas recognized by other high Lamas are fake. On the contrary, ALL LAMAs are highly realized. That means with regard to the Protector issue, the Lamas involved like, Pabongka Rinpoche, both current and previous Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoches, Ganchen Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and all the incarnations of the Dalai Lamas are enlightened beings and hence they are all correct, even the "ban" is to benefit. So, in the midst of this chaos, I asked, what can we learn from this? My answer, is our view and how we respond especially from our motivation and practice. We need to practice the Dharma and be kind and compassionate. From this we will gain wisdom.

This my humble thinking.