demonstrations

[lobtse]

hey people!

so first i just wanted to say that i am not against people practicing dorje shugden even though i have to say i have been a student of HH Dalai Lama for a long time and do not do the practice myself. everyone should be free to do what they want. i have many friends and acquaintances who practice the protector and even some who do not are encouraged by their teachers to go to the teachings of other teachers who are well-known dorje shugden practitioners.

the whole situation is quite unfortunate all around.

i think this whole situation is SO typical of tibetan religion/politics. throughout tibetan history you have powerful teachers and sects trying to control each other, as most of you know. gedun choepel's criticism of tibetan politics and religion was excellent when he said that the two are like salt and suger- when you mix the two, are they really eadible? but i think the reaction of the general tibetan community in india shouldn't be a shock, it is totally predicable. they are in a refugee situation and it is easy for them to band together against anything they see as a threat, plus it is typical for them to do things in extremes- so for example marginalizing shugden practitioners in lay society. its like a bit of a mob mentality unfortunately.

i noticed that there was a demonstration in the US against HH, and honestly, i think it is a really bad idea. at a time like this, when the situation in tibet is so critical, to organize demonstrations will only demonise dorje shugden practitioners in the eyes of tibetans everywhere and even more open minded western followers of HH.  what will people think when they see the dorje shugden protests right next to the chinese holding their red flags? not very good is it? there is already so much rumour that dorje shugden practitioners are supporters of and supported by the chinese government. just two days ago when i spoke to a friend in dharamsala they were saying "oh look, this demonstrations really prove that they are with the chinese."

i dont know who is organizing these demonstrations, i am guessing people from the NKT mainly, in the name of protecting the pure tradition of Je Tsongkhapa. i think the best way for the NKT to protect the purity of Je Rinpoche's teachings is to begin transmiting Yamantaka, Guhyasamaja and perhaps the full ordination/gelong vows.

i know many NKTers hold a strong dislike for HH, but on the other i know most other dorje shugden practicioners respect HH. i remember during my many visits to rabten choeling, pictures of HH were all over the place, at least they still were last year. so out of concern for what he is going through at the moment in trying to resolve the desperate situation inside tibet, as well as out of concern for the tibetans in tibet, maybe at least postpone these demonstrations until after the olympics?!?

[Lineageholder]

Dear lobtse,

Thank you for your balanced post, it's a breath of fresh air to hear someone say that they are a student of the Dalai Lama but that people should be allowed to practice whatever they wish, even the practice of Dorje Shugden.  I rejoice in your realizations. 

I do think this is a very unfortunate situation because neither the Western Shugden Society nor the Dalai Lama will benefit from the anticipated negative publicity from this, but we do need to protect our lineage for future generations which is why demonstrations are being held.  In terms of the timetable, we don't have any choice but to protest at this time.  The timetable is set by His Holiness who has redoubled his efforts to remove the practice of the Protector from Tibetan society since January 2008.  As it is said "he who hesitates is lost", we need to take action now without delay.

I am an NKT practitioner but I do not dislike the Dalai Lama; quite the opposite. I care about his future lives.  If the Dalai Lama is not a Buddha (we cannot know for sure) I'm concerned about the results he will have to experience as a result of restricting the religious freedom of others.  I can't think of anyone I know who has expressed dislike for the Dalai Lama. I greatly appreciate him teaching Dharma to so many people and I respect him in terms of being a Dharma Teacher.  I totally agree with what he said at Colgate University when he said that positive minds are the source of our inner strength.  I believe that the power of our protest must come from the compassion we have for everyone involved, otherwise we will not be successful.  If the Dalai Lama is a Buddha, he's teaching us that we need to stand up for what we believe in but to do so with a peaceful and compassionate heart.  There are so many lessons to be learned.

I also experience some frustration that people are viewing us as 'pro-Chinese' simply because we are disagreeing with the Dalai Lama, although it would be naive to expect anything else.  "You're either with us or against us" is such a simplistic view of the world; we're not 'with' anyone but Buddha.  My hope is that the suffering of all living beings will come to an end - Chinese, Tibetans and everyone else.  This is what we are standing up for in the long run because it is my belief that if the practice of Dorje Shugden disappears from this world, Je Rinpoche's teachings will go too because they have no Protector and they are too precious for that to happen.

Thank you for posting and giving your view in such a clear, balanced and respectful manner, it's much appreciated.  It's always good for someone to offer a different view because it clarifies what you believe yourself.

With much love,

Lineageholder

[lobtse]

yeah, i always wonder why this whole thing can't be done in a more civilized manner. i do definitely believe that there is a lot of marginalization and abuse aimed at shugden practitioners. but i personally don't think it is the direct fault of HH, but the fault of mainly lay Tibetans and some organizations like the tibetan youth congress who tend to go indulge in somewhat extreme acts that don't have positive results. these kind of people follow HH in the wrong way by abusing shugden practitioners, for example, while disregarding other things HH says, like trying to gain autonomy for tibet and not independence, not to drink alcohol, eat less meat, etc...

before january HH never actively tried any form of segregation between non-shugden and shugden practitioners in monastic institutions although he was always very clear that practitioners should not receive empowerment from him- he never even made this distinction for Sutrayana teachings. but one of my friends in mundgod told me that a geshe publicly challenged him at Drepung on the shugden issue- and that (from what i understand) is what set this whole thing off. wouldn't it be easier if the khangtsens at Sera and Gaden which practice shugden simply became their own institutions.

here i think one has to make a distinction between what is social abuse and actual religious persecution or human rights abuse. human rights abuse or religuous persecution or religious persecution is committed by a sovereign state on people. the tibetan government in exile has no actual authority in india and thus cannot force people to stop practicing shugden. the fact that there is a lot of pressure, marginalization and even abuse is not human rights abuse, however horrible it is. everyone in india has the right to freedom of religion and that is why saying to HH "give freedom of religion" will never stand in an indian court room as everyone knows there is freedom of religion, the monks who live in Sera and practice shugden are not forced to do so, they could hypothetically create their own monastery or move. i am not saying that is a good thing though, but it is true. one cannot force a baptist church to allow catholics to perform mass in their institution, for example.

also, as you said, there won't be any good results on the shugden side or HH's side from these protests, and i agree. it has the potential to make both sides look bad- many people will try to make all shugden practitioners look like crazy cult following fundamentalists while HH will be made to look like a dictator, whereas neither of these is true. but realistically, considering HH's standing, it may make the shugden practitioners look even worse- and that would be counter productive. i even have tibetan friends who are critical of HH's actions in january but i doubt they will look favorably at demos against HH at a time like this. plus it may even cause more marginalization of shugden practitioners.

of course we can never prove for sure who is a Buddha (although of course I believe HH is one . So I get what you mean. i have the same way of thinking about Trijang Rinpoche, and try and think he is doing what he is doing to teach us a lesson of some sort.  anyway, i still think the protests are not a good idea, especially because of the time (although i do understand why they are organized at this point) and may lead to baaaaad PR all round. but in the end it is everyone's own choice.

be happy!

[a friend]

before january HH never actively tried any form of segregation between non-shugden and shugden practitioners in monastic institutions.

Dear Lobtse,

it's true that you are talking in a very sweet civilized manner.
But your message is not objectively truthful. Your intention might be good, but some things you are saying are sophisms, I'm sorry to say.

To begin with, the Dalai Lama spent several hours of his teachings in the West last year, 2007, announcing that he had to finish his work, i.e., to eradicate the practice of the Protector Dorje Shugden. He said this in Germany, he said this in Barcelona, and in several other places. I directly know some of his Western disciples that grew "fed up" with the issue, wondering why he would go back and again to the same subject. Well, he was announcing his actions for this year, the Olympic Games year. For him obviously there was not better time to do the "cleansing" of the monasteries than February 2008, and he is the one who chose the dates, precisely because what you are saying, that after the events in Tibet (that he had all reasons to know beforehand), he was going to appear again to the eyes of the world as the champion of the Tibetan people. So it is not true that he didn't have the intention of "cleansing" the monasteries and all other communities from the practice and practitioners of Dorje Shugden. He had the intention. He himself announced it. He did it.

here i think one has to make a distinction between what is social abuse and actual religious persecution or human rights abuse. human rights abuse or religuous persecution or religious persecution is committed by a sovereign state on people. the tibetan government in exile has no actual authority in india and thus cannot force people to stop practicing shugden.

How soft you are with the political leader of the Tibetans, and it is understandable since you are a disciple of a religious teacher that happens to be the same person.
But again, what you are saying is not the truth. The Dalai Lama does not have the authority to do what he is doing, but he does have the power to do it, and he is doing it. His unique position allows for this. Tibetans who live in India are quite remotely under the Indian law. First and foremost they live under the diktat of the government of the Dalai Lama, in very actual, daily ways. He decides practically everything for the lives of the Tibetans and foremost, of the monks, through the various instances of his government and social associations. Who enters a monastery or not --for example-- as happened to those young monks coming from Tibet just a few months ago, remember?
What is happening is a full blown religious persecution by a person who holds the dual power of politics and religion. To deny this is to try to hide the sun with your finger ... you can do it but only for your own eyes.

the monks who live in Sera and practice shugden ..... they could hypothetically create their own monastery or move. i am not saying that is a good thing though, but it is true. one cannot force a baptist church to allow catholics to perform mass in their institution, for example.

You must be very young to say a thing like that.
Like the "Shugden people" are intruding in some kind of mainstream religious group?
This is really incredible.
Don't you know that the great Lamas who helped establishing, in exceedingly difficult conditions, the monasteries of Southern India, were Dorje Shugden practitioners?
Don't you know that the Dalai Lama was established in the West by the great Lamas that were already there and did everything to help him? These Lamas were Dorje Shugden practitioners. So what are we talking about?
This is a case of a schismatic turned teleevangelist that uses his zillions of dollars to bust the old believers from their temple.


I agree with you that these demonstrations are going to bring slander over the Dorje Shugden people, again. But times have changed. With the slander you are also going to have a lot of people, more and more, that are going to start wondering. Some people, you know, are independent thinking. Among these, some are inquisitive. Among these, some are going to read our material. Among these, some are going to try to know more and investigate further. That's all we want: that what logicians call "a good doubt" arises in the mind of a number of people. And this is going to happen, sooner or later.

Because one thing I can guarantee you: we are not going to stop trying to explain the truth to the world.
Because at least for some of us the motivation is adamantine. When you do something for all sentient beings with a sincere heart, you are going to meet with a good result, no matter the appearances. And this is our motivation: WE ARE GOING TO RESCUE THE GOOD NAME OF OUR GURUS AND OUR HOLY DHARMAPALA FOR THE SAKE OF ALL SENTIENT BEINGS. Our Lamas are not going to go down in history as demon-worshippers, as the Dalai Lama has established all on his own, no way. Neither our Gurus nor our Dharmapala need our defense. But sentient beings need their good name, their glory, intact, resplendent, lest they are prevented from even approaching their teachings. So, you have to understand. We are not going to stop.


Dear Lobtse, since you are quite independent in your thoughts, try to do something to stop this absurdity. It's the Dalai Lama who started it, he has to stop it.

...[/color]

[lobtse]

hey people,

so "geronimo" seems pretty rude and from the way he talks i think he is probably a big time conspiracy theorist or a chinese nationalist- for sure not a buddhist. lovely quote- "I hope people see solidarity with the Chinese and Dorje Shugden." looked his stuff up online and its all about how the chinese "liberated" tibet, blablabla. even dorje shugden practicioners suffer under the chinese!

"a friend", you bring up some good points  and obviously feel strongly about the subject, so im not going to try and dissuade you. however i do know a lot about this stuff and have been buddhist for quite a long time, even if i do like to think of myself as young  i know that basically all gelug masters today are students of trijang rinpoche via pabongka rinpoche- and i think both are great teachers. i dont want to get into the old argument about lineage purity here, because i dont think the fact they practiced shugden makes the lineage impure at all- they were great realized beings so i bet they knew what they were doing. but things change, so for a while HH has been against this practice, whether or not people want to continue it is their choice.

is not for the monastic community of sera and ganden to decide if they should accept shugden into their monastery? yes it is at the instigation of HH that they impose these restrictions, but it is their choice and in these cases the majority rules. shugden devotees are not intruding, of course they have been there since tibetans arrived in india! but since the situation has obviously changed, no one is forcing them to accept these changes, they are free to go and establish their own institution without having these restrictions. to many people their teacher, in this case HH is more important than any protective deity. and yes many people may question HH after your demonstrations, but none of them will be tibetans or tibetan buddhists (most kagyu, nyingma and sakya practitioners are not shugden-friendly), who are the ones you are trying to influence. and the situation of the shugden practitioners in india will not change, which isn't a good thing.

stay happy

 

[a friend]

Dear Lobse,

I don't know if you know about Buddhism ... I want to believe that you do, so if it seems that you don't, may be what you don't know are the facts?

Please take the time to peruse our website and see what really happened at least since 1996 and then last winter in Southern India, and with your heart tell me if you can honestly go on saying that IT WAS THE MONKS CHOICE?

Take your time, this can take several days. If you insist in maintaining that it was the monks choice after reading what is there for your eyes to read ... or that the Dalai Lama is merely "advicing" against the practice and not enforcing its ban with all the might of his Caesar-papal power ... then dialog is closed because it is not useful to go on debating when we don't perceive a common conventional reality.

By the way, I suppose you meant to say that Gelug Masters were students of Pabongka Rinpoche via Trijang Rinpoche.

And another thing: I suppose you are referring to the teachings on impermanence when you say, as a reason, "but things change". Yes, most things are impermanent. But teachings, like space, are not considered impermanent. Find out. And the only thing that changed, unhappily, was that the Dalai Lama thought he was above the teachings, particular the number one point in the Path to enlightenment. If you know what I mean.
...

With all my heart I wish this conflict dissolves --and only the Dalai Lama can abandon what he started. Like that a well intentioned person like you does not have to debate about things that are almost not debatable. Those facts ... so hard to bend.

Best to you.

...

[jeff Ryan]

I have been thinking about this idea lately. I have come to the conclusion while it would make ME feel good to be able to yell "shame on you dalai lama" at a demonstration, there is no real useful purpose in it other than to make us feel better to let out our outrage at the atrocities he has committed against the Lineage of Je Tsong Khapa.

The truth is (in my opinion) he has already succeeded in destroying the three once great monasteries and any chance for blessing coming from continuing studies there. The future of our Lineage lies on the shoulders of our Masters and those good monks who continue their studies to keep our Lineage alive. We should be concentrating on creating new monasteries free from his iron grip; a safe place where the blessing of the Lineage can grow and prosper. May Je Tsong Khapa's Teaching flourish for hundreds of eons!!!!!!!!!!

[prodorjeshugden]

I believe that the ban is a mere political issue, otherwise the CTA could have sought more peaceful ways to resolve the problems of Dorje Shugden. WE are Buddhist and thus we shouldn't harm others. What's more we are harming people in our own religion!! As if harming others from another religion isn't bad enough, the CTA is harming people from the religion that they are in.   

The NKT people and others who are protesting are doing that for the thousands of Tibetans and others who are suffering simply because  they worship the so called evil spirit Dorje Shugden. Of course some people are also saying that the Dalai Lama is bad ETC ETC..... The Dalai Lama isn't really the one who is bad, it's the CTA that's the one causing the Disharmony and trouble.

I know that The protest will keep going on until the ban is lifted, Why? Because all the protests stand up on behalf of the people who can't voice out their opinions due to fear. The CTA should watch out as more and more people are getting together to voice out against the ban.

[grandmapele]

Yes, demonstrations can be seen as feeding into our rage, frustrations, ego and what have you. It is also very expensive to put all those people at the various venues around the world. But if we does not make our voice heard, then there'll be recourse for the poor Shugden Tibetans in exile, who are being exiled a second round with this ban. If not for anything, can this be about the good in humans and that there is hope yet for humans.