So we are just EVIL (?)

[Blueupali]

Concerning the tulku system, I think it does benefit beings to have some tulkus that are recognized, and as you point out, of course it does help people notice all the Dorje Shugden practioners didn't end up in the lower realms.  So, that does work for some schools, and others, like in the NKT may not want to endanger the life of the next reincarnate, may think it is too difficult for a school that is in the west or have other valid reasons for not recognizing them.  As for me, I can go either way, but it does help me personally to run into lamas like Trijang Rinpoche or Karmapa, who are both recognized.   Trijang Rinpoche does help us by allowing people to notice that people who practice Shugden are sometimes even Buddhas, and therefore reassure them that we will not end up in the lower realms for prayers to Manjushri:).

I beg to differ, I think that the system do benefit beings. This is because it would let people have more faith in what they practice. They would know that these Tulkus come back to benefit us, and to help us. I think that this is important as it would show many that reincarnation do happen, and it is not something that people just talk about without any prove.

What I am saying though, is that we don't really differ.  I am saying it is beneficial that some of the schools are still recognizing tulkus, whereas others, like the NKT have valid reasons why they, themselves as a school, do not wish to recognize tulkus.  (Imagine the wrong one being reconginzed all the time?)  So, we are on Karmapa 18, actually, rather than 17, due to one of them not living too long who didn't get counted; we have until Karmapa 23 I believe for the Karmapa lineage to continue.  Of course, Karmapa will always come to help beings, but for whatever reason, at the 23rd recognition he stops; I am hoping that it means he will that life have another student that he wants to hold the lineage (that has attained enlightenment) and not that the world will be plunged into chaos and darkness and no Buddhas will be able to teach in this world.  (They will still come help of course, but it might be bizarre conditions).  So, no problem with tulkus you guys, but also no problem with Geshe Kelsang's not wanting to recognize tulkus for his own school--- its a big problem when the wrong ones are recognized, so I can understand where he's coming from.  Anyway, he seems like Je Tsongkapa to me, so if he wants to not recognize tulkus, that's fine with me.

[Rinchen]

What I am saying though, is that we don't really differ.  I am saying it is beneficial that some of the schools are still recognizing tulkus, whereas others, like the NKT have valid reasons why they, themselves as a school, do not wish to recognize tulkus.  (Imagine the wrong one being reconginzed all the time?)  So, we are on Karmapa 18, actually, rather than 17, due to one of them not living too long who didn't get counted; we have until Karmapa 23 I believe for the Karmapa lineage to continue.  Of course, Karmapa will always come to help beings, but for whatever reason, at the 23rd recognition he stops; I am hoping that it means he will that life have another student that he wants to hold the lineage (that has attained enlightenment) and not that the world will be plunged into chaos and darkness and no Buddhas will be able to teach in this world.  (They will still come help of course, but it might be bizarre conditions).  So, no problem with tulkus you guys, but also no problem with Geshe Kelsang's not wanting to recognize tulkus for his own school--- its a big problem when the wrong ones are recognized, so I can understand where he's coming from.  Anyway, he seems like Je Tsongkapa to me, so if he wants to not recognize tulkus, that's fine with me.

It is true that at times the incarnation may be recognised wrongly, but the incarnations are all recognised and certified by the Protector himself, or by the Dalai Lama. So are we saying that either Protector or Chenrezig is wrong? It would not make any sense if we put it in this way.

Although it is true that if we recognise Tulkus ourselves there will be mistakes, but when Buddha recognises I doubt there would be mistakes. If there is, then wouldn't it mean that even Buddha's teachings and the tantric practices are all wrong?

[Blueupali]

What I am saying though, is that we don't really differ.  I am saying it is beneficial that some of the schools are still recognizing tulkus, whereas others, like the NKT have valid reasons why they, themselves as a school, do not wish to recognize tulkus.  (Imagine the wrong one being reconginzed all the time?)  So, we are on Karmapa 18, actually, rather than 17, due to one of them not living too long who didn't get counted; we have until Karmapa 23 I believe for the Karmapa lineage to continue.  Of course, Karmapa will always come to help beings, but for whatever reason, at the 23rd recognition he stops; I am hoping that it means he will that life have another student that he wants to hold the lineage (that has attained enlightenment) and not that the world will be plunged into chaos and darkness and no Buddhas will be able to teach in this world.  (They will still come help of course, but it might be bizarre conditions).  So, no problem with tulkus you guys, but also no problem with Geshe Kelsang's not wanting to recognize tulkus for his own school--- its a big problem when the wrong ones are recognized, so I can understand where he's coming from.  Anyway, he seems like Je Tsongkapa to me, so if he wants to not recognize tulkus, that's fine with me.

It is true that at times the incarnation may be recognised wrongly, but the incarnations are all recognised and certified by the Protector himself, or by the Dalai Lama. So are we saying that either Protector or Chenrezig is wrong? It would not make any sense if we put it in this way.

Although it is true that if we recognise Tulkus ourselves there will be mistakes, but when Buddha recognises I doubt there would be mistakes. If there is, then wouldn't it mean that even Buddha's teachings and the tantric practices are all wrong?

Hi Rinchen, okay you say 'it is true that if we recognise Tulkus ourselves there will be mistakes but when Buddha recognizes I doubt there would be mistakes" so by logic of who is a Buddha in the first place, we could make a mistake, yes?  Either that or we have to listen when someone says 'that guy over there is a Buddha," okay, but how do I know just because he says it or I say it?  I cannot be sure who is a Buddha until I reach enlightenment, so saying that this person IS a Buddha is illogical.  Still, I am not saying that there are not some incarnations that could be recognized, but since we have to rely on discerning wisdom to decide whom to follow, then to me it is okay if some schools, like the NKT want to avoid the tulku process.

[Rinchen]

It is true that at times the incarnation may be recognised wrongly, but the incarnations are all recognised and certified by the Protector himself, or by the Dalai Lama. So are we saying that either Protector or Chenrezig is wrong? It would not make any sense if we put it in this way.

Although it is true that if we recognise Tulkus ourselves there will be mistakes, but when Buddha recognises I doubt there would be mistakes. If there is, then wouldn't it mean that even Buddha's teachings and the tantric practices are all wrong?

Hi Rinchen, okay you say 'it is true that if we recognise Tulkus ourselves there will be mistakes but when Buddha recognizes I doubt there would be mistakes" so by logic of who is a Buddha in the first place, we could make a mistake, yes?  Either that or we have to listen when someone says 'that guy over there is a Buddha," okay, but how do I know just because he says it or I say it?  I cannot be sure who is a Buddha until I reach enlightenment, so saying that this person IS a Buddha is illogical.  Still, I am not saying that there are not some incarnations that could be recognized, but since we have to rely on discerning wisdom to decide whom to follow, then to me it is okay if some schools, like the NKT want to avoid the tulku process.
[/quote]

Dear Blueupali,

We would be able to know if the person is a Buddha or not if the lama shows us their true form for those with the third eye to see. At the same time, when an oracle takes trance of the protector, people with the third eye would be able to see them as the protector instead of the oracle. This is the best evidence that anyone could ask for to prove if they really are Buddha or not. I believe that if it is us that become Buddha, it would take a longer time for us to have realisations like those. Or even to be clairvoyant, it would take a longer time.

[Blueupali]

It is true that at times the incarnation may be recognised wrongly, but the incarnations are all recognised and certified by the Protector himself, or by the Dalai Lama. So are we saying that either Protector or Chenrezig is wrong? It would not make any sense if we put it in this way.

Although it is true that if we recognise Tulkus ourselves there will be mistakes, but when Buddha recognises I doubt there would be mistakes. If there is, then wouldn't it mean that even Buddha's teachings and the tantric practices are all wrong?

Hi Rinchen, okay you say 'it is true that if we recognise Tulkus ourselves there will be mistakes but when Buddha recognizes I doubt there would be mistakes" so by logic of who is a Buddha in the first place, we could make a mistake, yes?  Either that or we have to listen when someone says 'that guy over there is a Buddha," okay, but how do I know just because he says it or I say it?  I cannot be sure who is a Buddha until I reach enlightenment, so saying that this person IS a Buddha is illogical.  Still, I am not saying that there are not some incarnations that could be recognized, but since we have to rely on discerning wisdom to decide whom to follow, then to me it is okay if some schools, like the NKT want to avoid the tulku process.

Dear Blueupali,

We would be able to know if the person is a Buddha or not if the lama shows us their true form for those with the third eye to see. At the same time, when an oracle takes trance of the protector, people with the third eye would be able to see them as the protector instead of the oracle. This is the best evidence that anyone could ask for to prove if they really are Buddha or not. I believe that if it is us that become Buddha, it would take a longer time for us to have realisations like those. Or even to be clairvoyant, it would take a longer time.
[/quote]

Dear Rinchen,
  While different people have different methods of finding faith in the Buddha, the problem for me is that the arguement you present is still circular.  Either we are saying we know who has the third eye or we are saying we know who is a Buddha; only Buddhas can tell who is a Buddha with certainty.  But to find someone who we think is a Buddha does not really 'prove' it; I can understand definately, having met lamas in whom I had immediate deep faith, that sometimes it is pretty clear to me that a Buddha can let his students notice that he seems like a perfect Buddha; but we are still not supposed to judge who is a Buddha or not; obviously there is sometimes disagreement about that, which could be worse in the future if China or other governments make the choices.  So, I am not saying that tulkus are unhelpful, but what I am saying is that we still have to decide whether or not we believe a particular recognition is enlightened; just because someone says 'oh that guy has a wisdom eye. He'll let you know who the Buddha is,' I am still left saying ,yes but how do I know that that guy has the wisdom eye?

[Rinchen]

Dear Rinchen,
  While different people have different methods of finding faith in the Buddha, the problem for me is that the arguement you present is still circular.  Either we are saying we know who has the third eye or we are saying we know who is a Buddha; only Buddhas can tell who is a Buddha with certainty.  But to find someone who we think is a Buddha does not really 'prove' it; I can understand definately, having met lamas in whom I had immediate deep faith, that sometimes it is pretty clear to me that a Buddha can let his students notice that he seems like a perfect Buddha; but we are still not supposed to judge who is a Buddha or not; obviously there is sometimes disagreement about that, which could be worse in the future if China or other governments make the choices.  So, I am not saying that tulkus are unhelpful, but what I am saying is that we still have to decide whether or not we believe a particular recognition is enlightened; just because someone says 'oh that guy has a wisdom eye. He'll let you know who the Buddha is,' I am still left saying ,yes but how do I know that that guy has the wisdom eye?

I get what you are saying. If you have doubts of it would be something that only you yourself can solve. Religions are all based on our trust, faith, and knowledge about something. And from there we would choose to live our daily lives based on what is being taught to us through the text. If there are Tulkus or not is not really something that we can judge. It is a way of how our great lineage masters has passed down this custom to all of us here today. We learn and we pick it up.

So if we say that Tulkus do not exist and there are no reincarnations, would that mean that what we have studied for so many years since Buddha's time is all wrong? That to me would not make any sense at all. I believe that there are indeed Tulkus out there that are not being recognised by anyone. But when we recognise them, it is the sort of respect that we would show them, thanking them each day as they carry that title that they have came back to this samsaric world full with sufferings to help benefit all sentient beings, guiding us to a place where we will be free from all sufferings. These Tulkus are suffering more then what we can even imagine. Just look at what do they have to go through. The things that they have done is always for the benefit of others and not themselves. Thus, I would say that this is a simplest way that we can thank them for suffering for us even though they already have the chance to reincarnate into this samsaric world.

[lotus1]

Thank you for sharing the videos of Kundeling Rinpoche.
It hurts to watch on how the Tibetan are being discriminated from the basic human and social rights just because of they are Dorje Shugden practitioners. It is definitely religious discrimination!

Another light bulb moment from Kundeling Rinpoche... watch 9:30 it is so funny...

Kundeling Rinpoche.wmv

all it takes is logic which we have been trained to use in our tradition and practice... think if HHDL can be harmed by Dorje Shugden, hence it seems He does not have refuge, then how is it that He can be a Buddhist teacher?? And then he pauses...

Obviously HHDL is still very much alive and healthy, no?

The point shared by Kundeling Rinpoche is very true. If Dorje Shugden is a demon, how would he able to harm HH Dalai Lama as we all know HHDL is an emanation of Chenrezig. Besides, the monks’ robe is known to be able to subdue demon. It is just not logic that a high lama like HHDL cannot subdue a demon. So, this clearly shown that Dorje Shugden is definitely not a demon!

[Q]

Kundeling Rinpoche can really talk and point out logic lolx!

But what Kundeling Rinpoche said is true... here, there are so many pro Dalai Lama students talking about peace, unity, tolerance etc.... but when it comes to Dorje Shugden practitioners, they are not tolerant... they create schism, bad mouth, vandalize, and even threaten to kill... is that what Buddhism all about?

Even the Buddha said to his followers to not take His words at face value, not to trust but to try and think for themselves... but many of these anti-shugden people are just ridiculous. Let not even point out about all the harassment they make, but even the most basic morale value in humanity such as respect, is not being applied.

Because of their actions, it made me think... it must be such huge, negative karma for breaking one's samaya and stop their protector practice that the negative qualities in them are magnified... every time I think about this, it makes my belief and practice of our great Dharma Protector stronger.

[prodorjeshugden]

Samdhong Rinpoche claims that Dorje Shugden practitioners are always ready to beat up or murder anyone, but until now i have not heard of any deaths caused by Dorje Shugden practitioners.  Samdhong Rinpoche also claims that people who perpetrate Dorje Shugden are terrorist and have close ties with the PRC.
The word terrorist refers to a person who uses fear, violence and terror to gain their objectives, however in my opinion it seems more like the people within the CTA are terrorists... Why? Because they are the the people who attack Shugden monasteries and people who practice Dorje Shugden.

I really hope that Shugdenners and non shugdenners will be able to resolve the issue with the ban peacefully without any bloodshed.

[grandmapele]

It is not right to put words in people's mouth. As a lama, Samdhong Rinpoche should not havesaid what he did. As a lama, a man of the cloth, so to say should remain neutral. He should practice equanimity which is love all equally. He should also practice kindness and mindfulness. I believe that is one his vows as a man of he cloth.

The Dalai Lama has now, in 2016 said that Dorje Shugen cannot harm him. So why are his followers still so hardline and continue yo harass Dorje Shugen practitioners?

[pgdharma]

As a person in robes, Samdhong Rinpoche should not be biased and defamed Shugden practictioners as murderers and terrorists. What happened to tolerance and religious freedom that are practice by Buddhists?

I admire Kundeline Rinpoche for speaking out. What he said is logical. The Dalai Lama always talks about peace, harmony, tolerance, unity but when it comes to Shugden practitioners, it becomes the reversed. This post is four years old. In the latest development, the Dalai Lama said that Dorje Shugden cannot harm him and can practice Dorje Shugden. (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5719.0).  I hope the situation is going to change for the better for Shugden practitioners and that the ban is lifted.