Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso on demonstrations - spring 2008

[Lineageholder]

Dear all,
Please read the House Rules.

There is no point in staying within a community and not following the rules set by it.

I certainly look forward to learn more from this site through mutual respect and sharing.

Cheers!

And your meaning is.......?

[WisdomBeing]

How propitiated is Dorje Shugden now?  Only by a handful of those who used to.  How is this progress?  Dorje Shugden is 'big' only for those who are involved in the practice and that's relatively few, even amongst the Gelugpas who used to do the practice.  There's no evidence that the Chinese are actively promoting this practice and so any idea that Dorje Shugden is being practised by the most populous nation on earth is somewhat of a pipe dream, held only within the confines of this (small) forum.

Please don't deluded yourself into believing that what the Dalai Lama did actually helped anyone, apart from those who created tremendously good karma by engaging in demonstrations against the DL's ban over the past fourteen years. It's also somewhat stereotypical to believe that criticism of the DL comes from Chinese soil only.  I'm a Westerner living in England and I will continue to criticise the Dalai Lama until he renounces the union of Dharma and politics that he practises, which will probably be never.

I think that it's okay to have your personal opinion of the Dalai Lama which is shared by many. I also think it's okay to have my personal opinion of the Dalai Lama, which is shared by many. Even if either of our views is shared by none, 3 people or many, it doesn't really make a difference. Just because a majority of people believe in something does not necessarily make it real. Just because nobody believes in something does not make it not real. By the way, while I don't agree with the protests, i respect your right to protest and in fact, I do see the purpose in it.

I do understand why many Dorje Shugden practitioners are very upset with the Dalai Lama. I definitely don't agree with the ban and see the agony of those who are suffering under it, as well as the very real threat to the lives of Lamas and senior monks who go against the ban. As with many things in life, there are different perspectives - and I think this is one of the cases where we will forever agree to disagree. It's not personal and I do not seek to persuade you to think the way I do.

Of course you can continue to criticise the Dalai Lama - it's your prerogative. But not here. The rules of the forum here are that we should not criticise any Guru or Lama. Like in any social space, all participants in a particular space should abide by the rules of the space, otherwise there is no point to have guidelines and rules if no one respects them. There would just be anarchy.

Please can we all behave with Buddhist principles in mind and respect this space.

[beggar]

I'm a Westerner living in England and I will continue to criticise the Dalai Lama until he renounces the union of Dharma and politics that he practises, which will probably be never.

Lineageholder: be careful how you're talking. We encourage people to debate and even discuss the DL and TGIE's actions at this time, but we DO NOT allow negative speech against any lama. This is the forum's policy and has been all this time. We cannot purport, at this time, to know the full intention of these lamas and our criticism or negative talk will only contribute to create more doubt in the minds of practitioners. There is enough confusion in the world. Let's not add to it by speaking badly against the lamas please.

[Lineageholder]

Dear all,

I think it's reasonable to have 'house rules' but to dictate what someone can and cannot say smacks a little of control, and there's enough of that in our society. I'm responsible for my own karma.  As long as people are reasonable in terms of the language they use there's no need to 'gag' anyone, in my view. I have not used rude or derogatory language towards the Dalai Lama, I have simply said that what he did by banning the practice of Dorje Shugden is wrong and that he is engaging in the union of Dharma and politics.  It really doesn't take a genius to see that this is the case, and furthermore, it's not difficult to see that under the Dalai Lama's ban, the practice of Dorje Shugden is suffering, not flourishing, as some people on this forum mistakenly believe.  There's no evidence for such a view.  If there is, present it and I will change my view.

[beggar]

lineageholder
i was issuing a warning. I think what you have written is fair. there is a difference in critiquing the actions as opposed to the lama himself and I think you understand that quite well. You have written in a fair way to express your personal view. It is not one i personally agree with but like i said, we do encourage debate and discussion. We can agree to disagree but different views are welcome; it's just important to be aware of how we are expressing these views and if they become harmful, rude, offensive or not. My prior posting was a warning to not get negative or harmful in your speech when talking about dalai lama or any other lamas for that matter. it is a reminder for all forum users to keep in mind also.

yours, beggar

[DSFriend]

Dear all,

I think it's reasonable to have 'house rules' but to dictate what someone can and cannot say smacks a little of control, and there's enough of that in our society. I'm responsible for my own karma.  As long as people are reasonable in terms of the language they use there's no need to 'gag' anyone, in my view. I have not used rude or derogatory language towards the Dalai Lama, I have simply said that what he did by banning the practice of Dorje Shugden is wrong and that he is engaging in the union of Dharma and politics.  It really doesn't take a genius to see that this is the case, and furthermore, it's not difficult to see that under the Dalai Lama's ban, the practice of Dorje Shugden is suffering, not flourishing, as some people on this forum mistakenly believe.  There's no evidence for such a view.  If there is, present it and I will change my view.

Dear Lineageholder,

Every forum has its house rules and some are more stringent than others. The house rules of this forum were carefully considered to ensure that the mission of this website is kept. Please note that several of the forum members have written to me privately to express their discomfort with certain strong language of other forum members, so please do be mindful of others.

Your view that the ban is wrong is shared by all in the forum. As long as it's expressed without putting down others' views, it is fine. Of course in all forums, people have differing views. That's fine. But when it gets nasty, it really does not represent us as Dharma practitioners well. As beggar said, he was just giving a warning. This is because this forum has seen much negative and argumentative speech over the past few months.

Thank you and all who come here for keeping to the house rules and making this a safe and pleasant place for all.

DSfriend

[kurava]

Dear Lineageholder,

Beggar and DS Friend had explained clearly my meanings.

Thanks guys !