The Dalai Lama won't stop

[Lineageholder]

I definitely believe in Tulkus. If great many reputable teachers give credence to their existence, so do I. Simple. The End.

I do not need to put in any of my input to tell them they are wrong or right. If they are wrong, why be on this forum, then they are wrong about everything.

I believe in tulkus too.  Of course there are beings who, through their tantric realizations, have the power to remain mindful through the death process and to incarnate in a different body and continue with their practice but whether such beings appear in this world depends upon our collective karma.  Just because young boys are being recognised as reincarnate Lamas does not mean that this is the case.  Look at the 14th Dalai Lama who is supposedly a tulku but who has rejected the teachings of his root and lineage Gurus.  There are even stories that he was wrongly identified, which would explain a lot of what is happening.  This is what I mean when I say that we cannot take titles on face value - it is the example of such people that is most important.

I do agree with WisdomBeing in another thread - there is a lot of expectation placed on such a young boy or girl from the very beginning and they have a lot to live up to.  From this point of view, I feel sorry for anyone who is recognised as a tulku.  I think it might be better if there were no titles and each person were simply to manifest their greatness in accordance with their realizations over time - or not, as the case may be.

[WisdomBeing]

I think the examples raised of eg 11th Panchen Lama is not necessarily an example of the failure of the Tulku system. The Dalai Lama's candidate was detained, and is not a flaw of the system. However, the Chinese sanctioned Panchen Lama may well be a Tulku also - same as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive.  HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one because he decided to become a lay person? i personally don't think so. What about HH Zong Rinpoche - is he a fake tulku, because he is not outwardly practising DS? They may not have necessarily produced 'example and deeds' yet but it doesn't mean they are not qualified and will produce great things in the future.

The Dalai Lama made a major error in declaring his candidate for 11th Panchen Lama because the boy was vulnerable as far as the Chinese authorities were concerned, so he was detained.  I hope he is still alive and well.

As for the other tulkus, there's no way to know for sure whether they are the person they are recognised as.  As I said before, I think it's best to be inspired by a person's example rather than the title they are given.  I do hope we will see the greatness of these Lamas in the future.

If Buddha's are Intent upon helping us via Recognised reincarnations I think it would not be beyond doubt that in the case of the 11th panchen lama that when one has some omniscient wisdom an enlightened being would not eminate where it is unskillfull or unwise to do so, Buddhas would know anyone recognised by the Dalai lama within china as a child reincarnate is certainly in danger...Better to have government approval in an authoritarian system then be a perceived opponent from the start how many people could you help then when you have the whole nation against you ? 

Dear Zach,

I agree with you - an enlightened being would only appear in order to best benefit sentient beings, otherwise there is no purpose for manifesting. It's definitely not for fun!

With the Panchen Lama issue - Gyancain Norbu is recognised by Lama Gangchen Rinpoche, who I absolutely adore. I am happy to see Gyancain Norbu as the Panchen Lama, though of course many will say he is the fake one since the Dalai Lama has already identified Gedhun Choekyi Nyima. It just goes back to the fact that Buddhas can emanate in more than one physical form, so rather than outguess who is who, and not having foresight nor clairvoyance, I will respect the recognition of incarnations by Lamas who I respect.

Personally I like tulkus because it is an example of a continuous 'attained' mindstream.. and usually the qualities of the incarnate lama will show in their extraordinary abilities, such as to memorise Dharma texts, as i believe Gangchen Rinpoche exhibited.

"Lama Gangchen was born in Western Tibet in 1941. He was recognised at an early age to be a reincarnate Lama healer and was enthroned at Gangchen Choepeling Monastery at the age of five. When he reached the age of twelve, he received the “Kachen” degree which is usually conferred after twenty years of study. Between the ages of thirteen and eighteen, he studied medicine, astrology, meditation and philosophy in two of the major monastic universities of Tibet: Sera and Tashi Lhumpo." (from http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1865)

Lineageholder - glad to read that you believe in tulkus too though albeit you prefer there were no titles. I guess different strokes for different folks. I'm curious - which lamas do you respect enough to trust to identify an incarnation or do you not trust any lamas?

[Lineageholder]

Lineageholder - glad to read that you believe in tulkus too though albeit you prefer there were no titles. I guess different strokes for different folks. I'm curious - which lamas do you respect enough to trust to identify an incarnation or do you not trust any lamas?

WisdomBeing, sorry to say that I don't trust any lama to identify an incarnation.  I would trust my own Guru, but in our tradition we don't identify tulkus.  Although I believe in the existence of tulkus, in general I think these times are just too degenerate for them to be identified reliably.  Most of the great Teachers I would have trusted such as Je Pabongkhapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang and Geshe Lobsang Tharchin have sadly passed away.  I trust my Guru and lineage Teachers to give the Dharma.  I think the most important thing is to focus on the Dharma because that's something we can verify through our own experience, through scripture and realization,  but as for tulkus, I don't trust their recognition, sorry.   Whatever merits a person is seen to possess will be through their knowledge and practice of Dharma, not their title.

[Lineageholder]

Most of the great Teachers I would have trusted such as Je Pabongkhapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang and Geshe Lobsang Tharchin have sadly passed away.....

I forgot to add the incomparable Song Rinpoche to that list.

[WisdomBeing]

Lineageholder - glad to read that you believe in tulkus too though albeit you prefer there were no titles. I guess different strokes for different folks. I'm curious - which lamas do you respect enough to trust to identify an incarnation or do you not trust any lamas?

WisdomBeing, sorry to say that I don't trust any lama to identify an incarnation.  I would trust my own Guru, but in our tradition we don't identify tulkus.  Although I believe in the existence of tulkus, in general I think these times are just too degenerate for them to be identified reliably.  Most of the great Teachers I would have trusted such as Je Pabongkhapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang and Geshe Lobsang Tharchin have sadly passed away.  I trust my Guru and lineage Teachers to give the Dharma.  I think the most important thing is to focus on the Dharma because that's something we can verify through our own experience, through scripture and realization,  but as for tulkus, I don't trust their recognition, sorry.   Whatever merits a person is seen to possess will be through their knowledge and practice of Dharma, not their title.

As your tradition doesn't identify tulkus, does that mean you don't believe HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is an incarnation of the previous HH Trijang Rinpoche?

just curious - what about the tulkus that the previous great masters identified - such as Je Pabongkhapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang and Geshe Lobsang Tharchin? And Song Rinpoche of course

If you trusted their previous incarnations, and not the current young(er) incarnations, then would you trust someone who they had identified in their previous incarnation?

Agreed re the focus is on the Dharma - i don't think there's any dispute about that, but the great lineage lamas, who are usually tulkus, would be the ones to bring the Dharma to many students. Even the tulkus who may not be identified as tulkus actually are, and it would be reflected in their activities and achievements.

[Gabby Potter]

Yes, His Holiness is not going to stop until Dorje Shugden is well known. His Holiness is so compassionate that He is willing to put Himself through all the problems and conflicts to make the practise of Dorje Shugden well known, such a great being!

[Matibhadra]

Yes, His Holiness is not going to stop until Dorje Shugden is well known.

What you want to say is that the evil dalie's witch-hunt is welcome, because it promotes your religious brand.

You are like the unscrupulous Christian clerics who welcome the murdering of Christians, because this allows them to pose as victims and martyrs. The power of the Christian church was erected precisely on the basis of the myth of martyrdom, and this is obviously the model you want to follow using the suffering of Shugdenpas.

You are also like the unscrupulous politicians who welcome terrorist attacks against their own country, because this allows them to use such attacks as a pretext to reinforce their own political power. For instance, George W. Bush was caught frantically laughing immediately after he was informed of the 9/11 attacks.

Bottom line, your twisted line of reasoning shows that you place your nauseating greed for fame and recognition, which you project on your religious brand of choice, above every single human value and limit of decency. Unwittingly, you became a barbaric monster, all the while calling yourself a “Shugdenpa”.

His Holiness is so compassionate that He is willing to put Himself through all the problems and conflicts to make the practise of Dorje Shugden well known, such a great being!

You have obviously lost contact with reality. Who is going through all the problems and conflicts are the victims of the evil dalie, the innocent practitioners of Dorje Shugden, on whose suffering you rejoice, not the criminal perpetrator you so fanatically support. Your deranged fanaticism makes you see the victim as the perpetrator, and the perpetrator as the victim.

[Dondrup Shugden]

There you go again, Matibhadra.  Although your comments do make sense in a very controversial way, Shugdenpas by having suffered so much in their practice had learnt to look at the positivity in their bad predicament.  As a matter of fact Shugdenpas are really practising what the HH Dalai Lama profess to do so with His relationship with China. The compassionate middle way. 

Shugdenpas will practise their religion without fear and are very steadfast and many movements had occurred to make the world know of the discrimination against them but yet they utter nothing bad against the Dalai Lama nor any person in particular. No name calling.

Shugdenpas will work to have the ban lifted. 

[Matibhadra]

There you go again, Matibhadra.  Although your comments do make sense in a very controversial way,

Some people find it “controversial” to refer to a criminal as such; that's why their comments make no sense.

Shugdenpas by having suffered so much in their practice had learnt to look cannot at the positivity in their bad predicament.

This is a fanciful, self-fooling description of unscrupulous religionists claiming to be Shugdenpas, but who rejoice on the suffering of others as a method to promote their own religious brand.

As a matter of fact Shugdenpas are really practising what the HH Dalai Lama profess to do so with His relationship with China. The compassionate middle way.

What the evil dalie actually professes and does in his relationship with China is to promote bloody racist riots and gruesome self-immolations, as required by his role of Western geopolitical puppet.

Why do you call this “the compassionate middle way” might be explained by some disfunction in your Buddhist training.
 

Shugdenpas will practise their religion without fear and are very steadfast and many movements had occurred to make the world know of the discrimination against them but yet they utter nothing bad against the Dalai Lama nor any person in particular. No name calling.

You see “bad utterance” and “name calling” where it does not exist, such as in calling a criminal “criminal”, just because you want to protect the criminal, which you want to sell as “Chenrezig”.

And why? Because ultimately you don't care about his crimes against humanity; you just care about the prospect of eventually becoming one of his favored minions, and thus an accomplice of his future crimes.