Nechung / Pehar

[Big Uncle]

Dear beggar,

I think you should re-read what I posted. How Nechung is connected to the Dalai Lama is through a vision of Guru Rinpoche that the second Dalai Lama had in bardo. The Dalai Lama being a Bodhisattva wanted to reincarnate in other worlds but Guru Rinpoche urged him to continue his work and he promised him the assistance of Nechung. That is how they are connected and where the bond initially started although he may have earlier contact. Also to note is that several Dalai Lamas are particularly well-known to engage in Nyingma teachings and termas. Hence, that might be another explanation as to why he would solicit Nechung,

Thanks big uncle. I understand what you had posted about the vision that 2nd DL had about Guru Rinpoche. My question still stands as to why Nechung was assigned to him, over any other dharma protector? It doesn't make sense to give the spiritual (and now also the political) head of a country an unenlightened dharma protector to be guardian of the whole country? Also, we believe that Dalai Lama is chenrezig, so why would chenrezig consult a non-enlightened being?

Well I believe the answer is really simple. If you follow my story, Guru Rinpoche just want to give a chance to Nechung to atone the sins of his past. Well, he wants Nechung to be enlightened too eventually and so he set him of on a task to work with the Dalai Lama in order to achieve that. In other words, he put his trust in Nechung and that kinda reminiscent of how a Lama works with some of his students too. He assigns them a certain role and responsibility as a means of a spiritual path.

[triesa]

This is surely an interesting thread to read on..........

My idea is very similar to what Big Uncle wrote just now.

I believe the only connection of why Guru Rinpoche assigned Nechung versus other "enlightened dharma protector" to the 2nd Dalai Lama was that Nechung the spirit, was first subdued by Guru Rinpoche and Nechung was then bound by oath to protect Buddhism in general to Guru Rinpoche. I could only relate this as to why Guru Rinpoche chose Nechung to other enlightened dharma protectors.

This is also possible that Guru rinpoche paved the path for Nechung to eventually become enlightened as mentioned by wisdom Being, so that Nechung will leave the scene as Dharma protector and henceforth the "chess move", or power handover to Dorje Shugden???

Some of you mentioned that Nechung could be part of this "handover plot"  too...... why not.........

And who knows what Nechung will arise as after he is englightened???

[DharmaDefender]

Dear beggar,

I think you should re-read what I posted. How Nechung is connected to the Dalai Lama is through a vision of Guru Rinpoche that the second Dalai Lama had in bardo. The Dalai Lama being a Bodhisattva wanted to reincarnate in other worlds but Guru Rinpoche urged him to continue his work and he promised him the assistance of Nechung. That is how they are connected and where the bond initially started although he may have earlier contact. Also to note is that several Dalai Lamas are particularly well-known to engage in Nyingma teachings and termas. Hence, that might be another explanation as to why he would solicit Nechung,

Thanks big uncle. I understand what you had posted about the vision that 2nd DL had about Guru Rinpoche. My question still stands as to why Nechung was assigned to him, over any other dharma protector? It doesn't make sense to give the spiritual (and now also the political) head of a country an unenlightened dharma protector to be guardian of the whole country? Also, we believe that Dalai Lama is chenrezig, so why would chenrezig consult a non-enlightened being?

Well I believe the answer is really simple. If you follow my story, Guru Rinpoche just want to give a chance to Nechung to atone the sins of his past. Well, he wants Nechung to be enlightened too eventually and so he set him of on a task to work with the Dalai Lama in order to achieve that. In other words, he put his trust in Nechung and that kinda reminiscent of how a Lama works with some of his students too. He assigns them a certain role and responsibility as a means of a spiritual path.

I'm still a little confused - isn't Palden Lhamo the Dalai Lama's personal protector (and therefore personal assistant, so to speak?)? And surely Padmasambhava gave the Dalai Lama, and not all of Tibet, this personal assistant? Or is that one and the same, since the Dalai Lama's success (temporally and spiritually) is so closely linked to that of Tibet's?

Some of you mentioned that Nechung could be part of this "handover plot"  too...... why not.........

It's not just some of us who mentioned this - His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche himself wrote in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors that Nechung set in motion the causes for Duldzin to eventually arise as Dorje Shugden. I quote:

Numerous times, during breaks between sessions of the great Manjusri Tsongkhapa's teachings at Ganden, there was a boy wearing white clothes who would come before him and demand, 'You must give me a helper!' Gyaltsab Je and Kedrub Choje knew the boy was an emanation of Pehar but never said anything. Since, at that time, Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen was the elder leader of the disciples receiving teachings, one day he said to the boy, 'It won't do for you to keep coming here and disturbing Je Lama when he is giving teachings! I'll give you whatever help it is that you want!' When he said that, the boy said, 'That is my purpose! It is your help that I have been waiting to find! Now, here at this time, among all of the disciples, you have accepted!' Having said that, the boy became invisible and disappeared.

And who knows what Nechung will arise as after he is englightened???

I don't know what Nechung will arise as after he is enlightened - surely what concerns us is his mind, and not his physical form because once he's enlightened, he can emanate as anything. It's due to our delusions that limits the number and types of forms we can perceive.

[DSFriend]

This is quite an interesting thread! I've enjoyed the sharing here.

Here's a possibiity - that perhaps Nechung also is part of the bigger picture. According to the book Oracles and Demons,

My thoughts are similar to yours in that Nechung is part of the bigger picture. He has to be based on how he was originally involved with Duldzin and dorje shugden.

[thor]

I'm still a little confused - isn't Palden Lhamo the Dalai Lama's personal protector (and therefore personal assistant, so to speak?)? And surely Padmasambhava gave the Dalai Lama, and not all of Tibet, this personal assistant? Or is that one and the same, since the Dalai Lama's success (temporally and spiritually) is so closely linked to that of Tibet's?

Yes Palden Lhamo is the Dalai Lama's personal protector and Padmasambhava gave Dalai Lama the Protector Nechung as an assistant. My way of looking at this is that Palden Lhamo is the Protector of the Dalai Lama in the manner that we all propitiate our own Dharma Protectors (not that the Dalai Lama needs one) which is to clear the obstacles on our spiritual journey. Whereas for Nechung, he assists the Dalai Lama in his 'work'; and after the 5th Dalai Lama arose as the spiritual and political leader of Tibet, then that extended to Nechung as well.

The Dalai Lama is Chenrezig so he does not 'need' to consult Nechung. Therefore the consultations with the Nechung oracle would be to reduce the work of the Dalai lama and removing the need for him to give advice and guidance to his government in exile always. He has clairvoyance, but having emanated in a human body, he is still somewhat subject to the limitations of this form i.e. needing food, rest, falling ill etc. There are only 24 hours in a day so for me, thinking logically, that is the function of Nechung.

[Big Uncle]

I'm still a little confused - isn't Palden Lhamo the Dalai Lama's personal protector (and therefore personal assistant, so to speak?)? And surely Padmasambhava gave the Dalai Lama, and not all of Tibet, this personal assistant? Or is that one and the same, since the Dalai Lama's success (temporally and spiritually) is so closely linked to that of Tibet's?

Yes Palden Lhamo is the Dalai Lama's personal protector and Padmasambhava gave Dalai Lama the Protector Nechung as an assistant. My way of looking at this is that Palden Lhamo is the Protector of the Dalai Lama in the manner that we all propitiate our own Dharma Protectors (not that the Dalai Lama needs one) which is to clear the obstacles on our spiritual journey. Whereas for Nechung, he assists the Dalai Lama in his 'work'; and after the 5th Dalai Lama arose as the spiritual and political leader of Tibet, then that extended to Nechung as well.

The Dalai Lama is Chenrezig so he does not 'need' to consult Nechung. Therefore the consultations with the Nechung oracle would be to reduce the work of the Dalai lama and removing the need for him to give advice and guidance to his government in exile always. He has clairvoyance, but having emanated in a human body, he is still somewhat subject to the limitations of this form i.e. needing food, rest, falling ill etc. There are only 24 hours in a day so for me, thinking logically, that is the function of Nechung.

Oh yeah, I neglected to mention about Palden Lhamo. Yes, my thoughts are pretty similar to Duldzin's. Palden Lhamo's role in the Dalai Lama's practice is to clear obstacles for his work to manifest (Dalai Lama is a Buddha so no obstacles from his side). On the other hand, regarding Nechung, I think it is more like one of Dalai Lama's Changtzo or assistant...
well a supernatural one. So, the roles that they play are vastly different as Palden Lhamo being the Enlightened Protector works on a higher and deeper level of removing obstacles and creating suitable conditions to manifest while Nechung as a worldly Protector works on a gross level of removing obstacles and creating a suitable conditions for the Dalai Lama's Dharma work to manifest.

[DSFriend]

This question could have been addressed before but I couldn't find out..Why is non-enlightenened Nechung assigned to Dalai Lama, whom many believe as Avalokiteshvara and who is the head of the Tibetan goverment?