Will the other traditions embrace Dorje Shugden?

[Big Uncle]

According to prophecy by the previous Karmapa, he said that there will come a time when Dorje Shugden will be practiced by all Tibetan Buddhist traditions. Right now, I am just wondering how that will come to pass? Most lineage Lamas of the other major traditions of Tibetan Buddhism have spoken against Dorje Shugden and that leaves little room for the great traditions to accept Dorje Shugden.

Hence, I think that it would take a charismatic Lama to set the trend and perhaps the current Karmapa will be the first to rely up Dorje Shugden once the ban on Dorje Shugden is over. What do you guys think?

[dsiluvu]

Really this is what the previous Karmapa said? If so then I am sure this truth will prevail. How? I do not really know. All I can think is that people who are practising will show the results and when people who are not comes to a situation in their life where there is no more other ways of getting help, they would perhaps turn to Dorje Shugden out of desperation. And that their prayers and obstacles clear and that is when they will start believing in Dorje Shugden.

All the high Lamas that first speak against Dorje Shugden will have their skillful ways to turn the tables around for sure especially if the motivation is to spread Dharma... then they will spread no matter what. So why would they not rely on the protector of our times which gives the swiftest results?

Much to anticipate! Looking at the new picture from Denma Gongsar Monastery in this forum... it is simply spectacular and I can imagine how soon all the monasteries in Tibet & China will soon have Dorje Shugden shrines because they can.

[DharmaSpace]

The Karmapa was the first tulku that was recognised ever within Tibetan Buddhism. Also the Karmapa is predicted to be one of the future Buddhas amongst the the 1000 buddhas that will manifest during this Fortunate Aeon.

So when the Karmapa gives prediction it is not something to be taken lightly, especially when there is no reason or need for him to support a protector from another lineage.

[Big Uncle]

I saw that the Admin of this site posted this up on the main page that I remember reading before -

While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on. Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event. - from Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's sungbum

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Big Uncle,

Unfortunately until we can stop each other from criticising each other within the Shugden practitioners ourselves and we can maintain real harmony with each other, i don't think we can even hope that other traditions will embrace DS.

I have seen pictures of the Dorje Drolo stepping on Dorje Shugden and find it appalling. But i guess there's nothing we can do about it, as long as the Dalai Lama supports this. If the Dalai lama did not support the ban on Shugden, we could appeal against it because it is schismatic.

Interestingly enough, i tried to search online for pictures of Dorje Drolo and Dorje Shugden but didn't find any.

[Big Uncle]

Dear Big Uncle,

Unfortunately until we can stop each other from criticising each other within the Shugden practitioners ourselves and we can maintain real harmony with each other, i don't think we can even hope that other traditions will embrace DS.

I have seen pictures of the Dorje Drolo stepping on Dorje Shugden and find it appalling. But i guess there's nothing we can do about it, as long as the Dalai Lama supports this. If the Dalai lama did not support the ban on Shugden, we could appeal against it because it is schismatic.

Interestingly enough, i tried to search online for pictures of Dorje Drolo and Dorje Shugden but didn't find any.

I know what you mean but I still harbor some hope for the future. I think it would be very important that the other traditions to eventually accept Dorje Shugden and even Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche. Ok, maybe they may not practice Dorje Shugden as they would have their own lineage Protectors but I am sure many would actually accept Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector like Mahakala and Kalarupa. In the past, there were Sakya, Nyingma and even Kagyu Lamas that have composed praises to Dorje Shugden. So in the future, the key to acceptance would lie with their Lamas. If their Lamas like this Karmapa would pen down their approval, then I am sure the followers and other Lamas would follow suit. Some may even have their own visions of Dorje Shugden, perhaps in a different form. Now, that would be most interesting!

[beggar]

an interesting question... thanks Big Uncle.

Here's what I think. The other traditions are now overtly against or adverse to Shugden's practice or anything / anyone to do with it because of the current political situation. It was not like this before. The biographies of very influential Dorje Shugden Lamas and oracles will reveal that not too long ago back in Tibet they would give teachings and practices to practitioners from all other sects. Trijang Rinpoche's biography recounts this clearly.

Don't forget that the Sakyas had already embraced the practice, even before the Gelugpas did! It would still be within their tradition and lineage to take up the practice again.

dorje shugden's influence and benefit to the world right now is unmistakable. I am certain that the accomplished and clairvoyant Lamas of all other sects will know and acknowledge this too. They may not choose to do the practice right now because they have their own practices of their lineage... and also because of the political climate. this is understandable, but deep in their heart of hearts, I don't believe that they are really against the practice. Seeing the benefit of the practice and how much the Protector can help them, and taking into account the changing hands of political power, I wouldn't be surprised at all if other lineages did start to embrace the practice eventually.

If other lineages accept the practice, that would be such a wonderful validation! The TGIE would be completely silenced...

[LosangKhyentse]

The ex TGIE are already being silenced and the clear indiction of that is the drastic name change to Tibetan Central Administration. They are no longer TGIE after 50 years of exile. Their so called Prime Minister Lobsang Sangye is not a Prime Minister but a Central Administrator now. What govt in the world would be humiliated into changing their names into that of a Administration?! It is absurd and shows a huge loss of power.

Their bans, alienation of their great masters, intrigues, poltics, bad decisions, short-sightedness and sheer pettiness has gotten nowhere. The ageing Dalai Lama has resigned from his job does not foretell of good things to come. If you are doing so well, why are you resigning? Obviously pressure from the Indian govt.

Traditionally each of the four sects of Tibetan Buddhism have special practices unique of their own schools not practiced by other schools or not as 'popular'. Although not practiced by another school, it does not mean the practice is not effective or not respected. It is not necessary for all schools to accept a particular practice to validate any practice.

Some examples of practices focussed within their own schools and not so widespread in other schools:

1. Lamdre of the Sakya not in other schools
2. Vajrakilaya within the Nyingma not so much in Gelug
3. Lam Rim within Gelug not in other schools

But each is a valid practice but not very much practiced in other schools.
 
Shugden may or may not become accepted in other schools of Tibetan Buddhism. It does not matter. If one great well known lama promotes Shugden, He will grow in the world to many non-Tibetans. Great lamas are the key for growth of a practice. And there are many great lamas of the Gelug School promoting the practice of Shugden for sure.

TK

[Big Uncle]

The ex TGIE are already being silenced and the clear indiction of that is the drastic name change to Tibetan Central Administration. They are no longer TGIE after 50 years of exile. Their so called Prime Minister Lobsang Sangye is not a Prime Minister but a Central Administrator now. What govt in the world would be humiliated into changing their names into that of a Administration?! It is absurd and shows a huge loss of power.

Their bans, alienation of their great masters, intrigues, poltics, bad decisions, short-sightedness and sheer pettiness has gotten nowhere. The ageing Dalai Lama has resigned from his job does not foretell of good things to come. If you are doing so well, why are you resigning? Obviously pressure from the Indian govt.

Traditionally each of the four sects of Tibetan Buddhism have special practices unique of their own schools not practiced by other schools or not as 'popular'. Although not practiced by another school, it does not mean the practice is not effective or not respected. It is not necessary for all schools to accept a particular practice to validate any practice.

Some examples of practices focussed within their own schools and not so widespread in other schools:

1. Lamdre of the Sakya not in other schools
2. Vajrakilaya within the Nyingma not so much in Gelug
3. Lam Rim within Gelug not in other schools

But each is a valid practice but not very much practiced in other schools.
 
Shugden may or may not become accepted in other schools of Tibetan Buddhism. It does not matter. If one great well known lama promotes Shugden, He will grow in the world to many non-Tibetans. Great lamas are the key for growth of a practice. And there are many great lamas of the Gelug School promoting the practice of Shugden for sure.

TK

Dear Tk,

Thank you for your wonderful and enlightening explanation here. It is really true, the TGIE is losing ground with their petty politics and its future doesn't really seem to bode very well although the appointment of the new Harvard graduate 'Central Administrator' seemed promising at first. But no matter how smart he is, he wouldn't be able to reverse the lost ground the TGIE has experienced and the stepping down of the Dalai Lama is a big blow to them.

However, the reason for the Dalai Lama's resignation, which you have attributed to the pressure from the Indian government seems to be an unlikely reason but after some thought, it is more compelling than what was officially proclaimed. After all, none of the Dalai Lamas - his predecessors have ever stepped down.

On the other hand, I liked what you mentioned about the uniqueness of each tradition and there is no reason to seek validation by having other schools practice a particular tradition as all Buddhist traditions are authentic, have real results and need no further validation. Nevertheless, I found it very interesting that a great Lama of another tradition, the Karmapa giving that prophecy about Dorje Shugden.   

[dsiluvu]

Shugden may or may not become accepted in other schools of Tibetan Buddhism. It does not matter. If one great well known lama promotes Shugden, He will grow in the world to many non-Tibetans. Great lamas are the key for growth of a practice. And there are many great lamas of the Gelug School promoting the practice of Shugden for sure.

TK

Yes... after all there are more people who are not Tibetans and who are also none practitioners of Dorje Shugden "yet" in this world. The focus is no longer Tibetans but people of this world. The practice of Dorje Shugden is not solely for Tibetans. And Dorje Shugden is Manjushri - Buddha of Wisdom, His practice is for anyone who wishes to adopt Buddha's path... Dorje Shugden helps practitioners realise this path a lot quicker.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Nothing is permanent!!! For now many schools of Tibetan Buddhism do not share the core discipline of study, but I believe in whatever form of Buddhism you study, the result is for enlightenment.

The core to enlightenment practice is the way of Buddhism. 

Therefore will it be possible for Dorje Shugden to be revered to the Principal Protector Practice.  I believe it is possible by the emergence of a great Lama.  The Gelugs are a tradition of great learning and have produced great lamas even in the last century, the likes of Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche.  They are great Shugden Lamas and they are incarnated and with us now. 

For the sake of many sentient beings may the worship of DS spread in 10 directions.