Why the vow of abstinence?

[Positive Change]

Many religions have abstinence as a vow for their clergy, many also do not have it (for example a rabbi that is not married is seen as awkward) -in Buddhism some schools, like the Gelug ask of their lamas a vow of abstinence, others schools have married lamas. Some Gelug lamas disrobe, marry and have children and remain teachers, lay teachers.
This brings this question: what is the meaning of the abstinence vow for lamas, and why do some lamas need not take them?

I quoted the above from a fellow forum guest. This question by no means a disrespect  to the sangha or any religious clergymen/women who practice this. However, following the train of thought above, apart from the obvious (to me) which is a form of detachment, why are there certain rules for some and for some not? One may argue it is 'in the mind' so to speak and that certain highly attained lamas do procreate and actually is of great benefit it seems. So what does the actual vow of abstinence mean then? Not the literal meaning but the higher meaning if any? Can someone illuminate me on this somewhat perplexing issue on duality!

[KhedrubGyatso]

There are many levels of vows and precepts as one walks the spiritual path. They are a  measure of one's progress.These commitments generally accord with the instructions of the Buddha based on the following priorities:
Do not harm , do good, train your mind.

The meaning and application of a  precept/vow can alter from one level to the next with more exceptions depending on motivation.The vows becomes less of a commandment and requires more consideration and evaluation. ( wisdom  input ) Higher motivation means engaging in an action with less and less selfishness.
Hence, celibacy as a vow for monastics, is  I believe firstly aimed to protect them from harming as they are not yet free from the three poisons of ignorance,  attachment and anger , which leads to harming others.
For an accomplished practitioner , celibacy is no longer  protecting oneself or others from harm but as a skilful means to inspire  others that it is possible to control one's mind to the extent of being able to give up sense pleasures and be perfectly happier for it. If the external signs of accomplishments such as  wearing the robes and shaving one's hair give confidence to others to trust us and enable us to reach out to others more effectively, why not ?
To be free from the 3 poisons is a very high attainment. I think where  this is mandatory in some   schools it is on the safe side to protect the monastery from being scandalized . At the same time the monastic  community earn respect from the public who expects to see monks holding on to strict codes of conduct as a result  of their training. Hope this helps somewhat.

[Positive Change]

There are many levels of vows and precepts as one walks the spiritual path. They are a  measure of one's progress.These commitments generally accord with the instructions of the Buddha based on the following priorities:
Do not harm , do good, train your mind.

The meaning and application of a  precept/vow can alter from one level to the next with more exceptions depending on motivation.The vows becomes less of a commandment and requires more consideration and evaluation. ( wisdom  input ) Higher motivation means engaging in an action with less and less selfishness.
Hence, celibacy as a vow for monastics, is  I believe firstly aimed to protect them from harming as they are not yet free from the three poisons of ignorance,  attachment and anger , which leads to harming others.
For an accomplished practitioner , celibacy is no longer  protecting oneself or others from harm but as a skilful means to inspire  others that it is possible to control one's mind to the extent of being able to give up sense pleasures and be perfectly happier for it. If the external signs of accomplishments such as  wearing the robes and shaving one's hair give confidence to others to trust us and enable us to reach out to others more effectively, why not ?
To be free from the 3 poisons is a very high attainment. I think where  this is mandatory in some   schools it is on the safe side to protect the monastery from being scandalized . At the same time the monastic  community earn respect from the public who expects to see monks holding on to strict codes of conduct as a result  of their training. Hope this helps somewhat.

Thank you Khedrub Gyatso... It is very clear and concise! I understand that is in a way a means to an end. It is "used" as a precursor to help one accomplish one's goals in spirituality and that it is not something one "gives up" per say. Abstinence or giving up one's attachments are often seen as just that... to "give up" but if one actually sees it as an actual state of "releasing" oneself from the very things that make us unhappy, it does not sound too bad after all does it. After all, who wants to be constantly unhappy... forever!

[DSFriend]

The way i understand vows in general, is to show us that these are the activities when we engaged in, does not bring happiness.

How kind of the Buddha to point out to us. It is not easy for us and often times, we see it as a "prison" because our minds are so accustomed to look for and engage in what it believes to bring happiness.

Appreciates sharing from KhedrubGyatso

Just a personal contemplation...i can't decide which is a stronger attachment as both are just as strong :

Abstinence to no consummation of food after noon OR
Abstinence from copulation

much to rehabituate from!

[hope rainbow]

Just a personal contemplation...i can't decide which is a stronger attachment as both are just as strong :
Abstinence to no consummation of food after noon OR
Abstinence from copulation
much to rehabituate from!

LOL
Indeed, this topic on abstinence is more likely a topic on attachment.
It's just that with a topic related to cupolation, sets of  "wordly moral values" come in as well as potential scandalous behavior that we can gossip about, etc... Our "voyeurism" mind gets excited.
Few will buy a newspaper making news about a monk that was caught eating after noon when many would buy the same newspaper making news about a monk caught with a woman. That is our mind attracted to scandals, the one that makes us slow down while driving to watch a car accident scene and maybe... bodies...
For some, attachment to sleep, or laziness, or lying needs much more work than attachment to copulation.
When the attachment is gone, there is automatically a shift in the action's motivation, that makes for a change in the karma at work.

[Positive Change]

Just a personal contemplation...i can't decide which is a stronger attachment as both are just as strong :
Abstinence to no consummation of food after noon OR
Abstinence from copulation
much to rehabituate from!

LOL
Indeed, this topic on abstinence is more likely a topic on attachment.
It's just that with a topic related to cupolation, sets of  "wordly moral values" come in as well as potential scandalous behavior that we can gossip about, etc... Our "voyeurism" mind gets excited.
Few will buy a newspaper making news about a monk that was caught eating after noon when many would buy the same newspaper making news about a monk caught with a woman. That is our mind attracted to scandals, the one that makes us slow down while driving to watch a car accident scene and maybe... bodies...
For some, attachment to sleep, or laziness, or lying needs much more work than attachment to copulation.
When the attachment is gone, there is automatically a shift in the action's motivation, that makes for a change in the karma at work.

This got me thinking... It is not about which vow broken is worse. Its true. They are all vows. And each has a specific counterbalance. I like the train of thought here as I am still using my deluded mind to "justify" which is worse which in fact there is no difference apart from within our own mindstreams. Hmmmm.

The reason I asked this question to begin with is I have heard that some highly attained Lamas actually do have "consorts" and was wondering how this would be accepted within the perceptions of how one views a Lama. And with your post above it clearly highlights how we love sensationalism. We are like vultures waiting to find fault instead of rejoicing for something of a higher purpose that we may not understand!

[Vajraprotector]

The theory of tantric yoga holds that the body is traversed by 72,000 channels through which flow subtle energies known as winds. The shared rituals, the intense concentration, and finally the union of the consorts intensifies this energy to excruciating levels until it shatters the egoistic obstructions to the free circulation of the winds, which are then drawn into the central channel, where they produce a profound state of enlightenment.

However, this kind of ‘sexual’ yoga is rarely practice, considered suitable for only the most advanced practitioners. Less advanced monks/practitioners are instructed to pursue this practice by merely visualizing a consort. 

The current Dalai Lama, for example, told a conference of Western Buddhist teachers that only those whose practice was so advanced that they had no sexual desire whatsoever and whose equanimity was so great that they would just as willingly drink a glass of urine as a glass of wine or qualified for sexual yoga with a consort. Clearly, this is not suitable for anybody who is not attained.

So till the day we overcame our sexual desire and say "cheers" with a glass of urine, I say we focus on what the Kadampa masters said that is the best attainment: developing faith in cause and effect, living in pure ethics, and eliminating one’s delusions and negative states of mind 

[vajrastorm]

I came across the following line from the Lamrim - 'For ordained people,  all sexual activity becomes sexual misconduct'.
This clearly shows that all ordained monks and nuns have taken the vow of abstinence from sex.

 Lamas who marry would have voluntarily disrobed. These Lamas appear to me to be highly realized  and, for them it's just a matter of taking sex into the Path of practice.

Incidentally, it is also stated in the Lamrim that vows are very necessary to take. We shouldn't fear taking them. The Refuge vows, for instance, with its accompanying commitment of abandoning the ten non-virtuous actions of body, speech and mind, help us to hold our ethics and maintain moral discipline. Without moral discipline, we cannot hope to have a future human rebirth.

[Helena]

Personally, I think in our world of sensory pleasures and pursuit - it is really no longer about trying to survive or just to stay alive.
We have crossed the line and leapt into the realms of constantly wanting to satisfy our own desires and needs to the point of excesses.
We indulge, fornicate, enjoy excessively and can even become addicted to all the pleasures that samsara provides.
Hence, why not the vow of abstinence? Because it seems very clear that we no longer have self-discipline and strong moral discipline to be exact.
At this day and age, with all the variety of distractions around us, vows of abstinence may be the very thing we need to make us stop and ponder on our own actions and direction in life.

In spiritual terms, if we want to become enlightened as quickly as possible, then we must be willing to cut ourselves off from the very things we are attached to. We must be able to see the wisdom and necessity in abstaining ourselves from the very things that can cause us to go down.

I am all for the vows of abstinence. Because if I do not cut my attachments now, when will be a good time to ever cut them off? The longer I wait is not going to be good for me, nor make things easier for me. And if I do value enlightenment as much as I say I do, I should be happy to cut them off whether I like it or not, and whether I can do well without them or not.

I do believe that there will be a period whereby I will experience terrible withdrawal symptoms. However, to me, its understandable considering how long and deep I have grown attached to the things I am attached to. Hence, I am more determined to cut them off as quickly as possible regardless of how painful the process may be. I know in my heart that it is all worth it.

When we are 'cured' and 'healed' of our ailments, there will be no more pains and sufferings. And that is exactly what I look forward to. Then I can completely focus on helping others and not be distracted by my own "samsaric nonsense".

 

[hope rainbow]

I came across the following line from the Lamrim - 'For ordained people,  all sexual activity becomes sexual misconduct'.
This clearly shows that all ordained monks and nuns have taken the vow of abstinence from sex.

 Lamas who marry would have voluntarily disrobed. These Lamas appear to me to be highly realized  and, for them it's just a matter of taking sex into the Path of practice.

Incidentally, it is also stated in the Lamrim that vows are very necessary to take. We shouldn't fear taking them. The Refuge vows, for instance, with its accompanying commitment of abandoning the ten non-virtuous actions of body, speech and mind, help us to hold our ethics and maintain moral discipline. Without moral discipline, we cannot hope to have a future human rebirth.

The lamrim also touches (in the same chapter where we find the above sentence) on the DECLARED PROHIBITION and NATURAL PROHIBITION.
Eventually, one must check: what is my motivation for acting this way or not acting this way. The motivation is essential!
Is the motivation fueled by any of the three poisons?
Or are my actions motivated by bodhicitta?
This makes a great difference.
And the topic of PROHIBITION, especially the DECLARED PROHIBITION is a sensitive topic to discuss with practitioners whose mind is not ready.
So is the topic of having a "consort", and it would be very arrogant to judge on this without proper knowledge.
Arrogant to a point where it becomes damaging to our practice.

Example:
We can all understand that there are lies that save lives and are motivated from a will of saving lives.
Few of us (and not me definitely) can understand that when it applies to "having consort".
So I think it is not productive to dwell into this debate about "consorts" until we know enough to understand, we need to trust our teacher on this until we are better equipped mentally.
"Knowing enough" would be when we have gotten rid of our attachment and habits of lust staining our understanding of anyone engaging in any sexual activity.

[Positive Change]

I came across the following line from the Lamrim - 'For ordained people,  all sexual activity becomes sexual misconduct'.
This clearly shows that all ordained monks and nuns have taken the vow of abstinence from sex.

 Lamas who marry would have voluntarily disrobed. These Lamas appear to me to be highly realized  and, for them it's just a matter of taking sex into the Path of practice.

Incidentally, it is also stated in the Lamrim that vows are very necessary to take. We shouldn't fear taking them. The Refuge vows, for instance, with its accompanying commitment of abandoning the ten non-virtuous actions of body, speech and mind, help us to hold our ethics and maintain moral discipline. Without moral discipline, we cannot hope to have a future human rebirth.

The lamrim also touches (in the same chapter where we find the above sentence) on the DECLARED PROHIBITION and NATURAL PROHIBITION.
Eventually, one must check: what is my motivation for acting this way or not acting this way. The motivation is essential!
Is the motivation fueled by any of the three poisons?
Or are my actions motivated by bodhicitta?
This makes a great difference.
And the topic of PROHIBITION, especially the DECLARED PROHIBITION is a sensitive topic to discuss with practitioners whose mind is not ready.
So is the topic of having a "consort", and it would be very arrogant to judge on this without proper knowledge.
Arrogant to a point where it becomes damaging to our practice.

Example:
We can all understand that there are lies that save lives and are motivated from a will of saving lives.
Few of us (and not me definitely) can understand that when it applies to "having consort".
So I think it is not productive to dwell into this debate about "consorts" until we know enough to understand, we need to trust our teacher on this until we are better equipped mentally.
"Knowing enough" would be when we have gotten rid of our attachment and habits of lust staining our understanding of anyone engaging in any sexual activity.

Yes thank you HR for pointing this out... it certainly is NOT productive to assume or try to make sense of what we do not have any comprehension at this moment. It was from my naivety and lack of understanding which made my curiosity rear its ugly head... *blush* and in turned tried to turn my lack of understanding of a subject to posing a question which I thought was smart!