Questioning the Advice of the Guru

[diamond girl]

I may not be a completely holy and pious Buddhist practitioner but from what I have learnt and to put it simply, Guru Devotion does not equal Blind Faith. I was told by a great Teacher once to check things out before committing to one's Lama. It is like when we want to invest in a company's stocks, we will do a due diligence of the company right? I take this as a analogy which is only common sense.

In clause 6) of the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion it says, "In order for the words of honor of neither the Guru nor the disciple to degenerate, there must be a mutual examination beforehand (to determine if each can) brave a Guru-disciple relationship."

This only makes sense as when we commit to a Guru, it is not a simple act of pleasure you know? It is a commitment to take a spiritual relationship to gain attainments and learn. And this should not be taken lightly. This relationship becomes more intense when higher tantric vows and teachings are taken. It is crucial that before this time, we as students must learn thoroughly and completely from our Guru of choice. And it is only common sense that in learning we all have questions. Questions can only be answered by asking. However, like Beggar puts it eloquently, in seeking answers from the Guru we do not do so with motivation to be defiant and to find "loopholes" to do the opposite. We ask with respect and sincere motivation to learn and perform our duties so that we can collect the merits for attainments.       
 
Please read this:
http://www.bodhicitta.net/FIFTY%20STANZAS%20OF%20GURU%20DEVOTION.htm

Therefore, in this text extracted by Thor, I do not read the teaching of HHDL as negative. In fact if the advise is taken one can realize a beautiful and longterm relationship with a Guru which will last a life time and many more. In asking questions it means that we are in pursuit of knowledge, and I am very sure that any Guru would be most please to know that his students are hungry for knowledge.

As for the context of the Dorje Shugden, we can interpret it to relate. I see it as if HHDL can say to question then his students can question him on this. But question with respect and with the intent of harmony. I will not take it aggressively. 

[Ensapa]

It is very important to check out the teacher that we are about to take refuge in or accept as our teacher, tutor and guide. The Guru guides us not only in this life but in all future lives as well which is why we have to check very carefully to see if the teacher is qualified to guide us or not. Many people these days take Guru devotion very lightly and think that they can just abort their current Guru if their Guru stops saying words that please their ears or challenges the a little for another one, since there are so many. Nobody really bothers to check anymore these days. According to the 50 verses, the criteria of a proper teacher are:

7. A disciple with sense should not accept as his Guru someone who lacks compassion or who is angersome, vicious or arrogant, possessive, undisciplined or boasts of his knowledge.

8. (A Guru should be) stable (in his actions), cultivated (in his speech), wise, patient and honest. He should neither conceal his shortcomings, nor pretend to possess qualities he lacks. He should be an expert in the meanings (of tantra) and in its ritual procedures (of medicine and turning back obstacles). Also he should have loving compassion and a complete knowledge of the scriptures.

9. He should have full experience in both ten fields, skill in the drawing of mandalas, full knowledge of how to explain the tantras, supreme faith and his senses fully under control.

you can have a very fierce teacher, a very quiet one, a famous one, an unrecognized one, but no matter what he or she needs to have the qualities listed in these 3 verses. If they have, it means they are qualified. It is not a technical thing per se, but something that we have to put our effort in to get close to the teacher and observe, or observe via his teachings and going through them and see. Another way is to observe the students.

There is nothing wrong with questioning the Guru to understand more about him but it is not right to question the Guru to challenge him or to avoid his assignments, or to discredit his Dharma, or even to hurt him. People these days are no longer aware of what is a fine line between questioning for knowledge or questioning to put down or undermine. If it is the former, the Guru will always be happy to answer but if it is the latter, one just creates the causes to never have a teacher, ever.

I have seen and met people who walk into the center, demanding to meet the Lama and the questioning the Lama all kinds of questions, and then when the answer is different than what the person expects, they will ask the question again until they get the answer they WANT to hear, not the real answer. If they dont get what they want to hear, they literally scorn the lama and put him down, either in front of the lama or behind his back. That is the kind of questioning that is "not allowed" in this context. Questioning like "Dear Lama, why do you act in such a way? I do not understand and to prevent myself from misunderstanding you, please in all kindness, explain" is obviously permissible. If the lama does not respond to that, or responds in an aggressive way, something is up with him.

This is just very, very basic logic. Not too hard to know if we are questioning to learn or to question to put down our Lama. Not rocket science, but glad that the Dalai Lama explained about it anyway.

[Positive Change]

I really like this teaching by Dalai Lama.  Examining what the guru taught prior to accepting it and apply it in your life is a very good concept.  I developed great faith in my own lama after examining his teachings and his conducts and could not find any fault with them.  That is how I developed faith in him.  Seeing my Lama as a Buddha has become easier as time goes by. 

I personally think H.H. Dalai Lama has been so kind for giving this teaching.  It is the same as saying that "please examine me whether my instruction to ban DS practice is correct."  It brings to things to a whole new level.  If a little effort is put out to learn about DS, one can see whether DS is a true protector or not.

The whole ban itself seems to be done in such a way where it raises more questions than answers. The reasons he has given for the ban are not substantial and are basically statements that go against logical thinking, or merely just logical loopholes that does not really apply if you really think about it or really study and is not just caught in the personality cult that is the Dalai Lama.

Of course the Dalai Lama wants you to examine Dorje Shugden, then choose to accept or reject him based on your own understanding of the subject. That is why alongside with his criticism against Dorje Shugden, he always pairs it by asking people to investigate the teachings, including his before accepting them. Isnt that odd? why would you want to pair that teaching while speaking out against Dorje Shugden?

It is almost like a very subtle hint for people to actually see beyond his words and read between his lines with regards to the ban and to really examine and research about the statements that are being made if it is true, or if it is really as harmful as people want to believe. There will always be people who do not like Dorje Shugden for whatever reason but to take in their input entirely that Dorje Shugden is evil is kind of a no-brainer, right?

I am glad that I am not the only person who realizes that HHDL is really subverting people and more or less directly promoting Dorje Shugden in this way but yet a lot of people still choose to take his words on a surface level mainly because it is easier and that it requires less "work"... while conveniently ignoring the more critical advice.

Yes I agree with what have been said by both of you. It is, I feel personally a method HHDL is using for us to look inside ourselves, inside our minds. To examine for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. Because the very foundations of our faith in Dorje Shugden has to be erected based on that and not based on what someone told you.

Yes we have the guidance of our kind and compassionate Guru/Gurus, but take for example the issue of the ban... how many "fall wayside" because they merely were told what to do and not doing it because they truly want to or have faith in. Such is the true strength of a believer and sincere practitioner.

As much as we asked Dorje Shugden to never waver when it comes to our "problems", we too must stand steadfast in support of our King.

Hence to recap, what I sincerely believe is HHDL instilling in us and teaching us the true value of contemplation and self analysis in order for us to come to our own conclusions as to what we have to do. If HHDL were to say today... I was "wrong" everybody HAS to propitiate Droje Shugden, you think everyone will? Certainly NOT the Chinese! So on that same logic, perhaps it really is best to give the world the "forbidden fruit" and let them make their own minds up about the practice.

If that is not true compassion, I do not know what is!

[dsiluvu]

Well, following the 50 stanzas verse 46 onwards... it clearly states that you do not question anymore when you checked and seal a relationship with your Guru... basically you had ample time to check before making a decision to brave a Guru Disciple relationship.

46. What need is there to say much more. Do whatever pleases your Guru and avoid doing anything he would not like. Be diligent in both of these.

47. “Powerful attainments follow from (doing what) your Guru (likes).” This has been said by (the Buddha) Vajradhara himself. Knowing this, try to please your Guru fully with all the actions (of your body, speech and mind).

48. After a disciple has taken refuge in the Triple Gem and developed a pure (Enlightened) motive, he should be given this (text) to take to his heart (how to abandon his own arrogant self-will and) follow in his Guru’s footsteps (along the Graded Path to Enlightenment).

49. (By studying the prerequisite trainings of Guru-devotion and the Graded Path, common to both the Sutra and Tantra,) you will become a (suitable) vessel (to hold) the pure Dharma. You may then be given such teachings as Tantra. (After receiving the proper initiations,) recite out loud the fourteen root vows and take them sincerely to your heart.



Hence no more questioning the Guru and what the Guru tells you to do. Of course no questioning here means no more doubting and just basically trust.

...I sincerely believe is HHDL instilling in us and teaching us the true value of contemplation and self analysis in order for us to come to our own conclusions as to what we have to do. If HHDL were to say today... I was "wrong" everybody HAS to propitiate Droje Shugden, you think everyone will? Certainly NOT the Chinese! So on that same logic, perhaps it really is best to give the world the "forbidden fruit" and let them make their own minds up about the practice.

However the different perspective presented here sure is interesting... and I do think Positive Change your perspective is most likely what is happening. I mean, it sure is a huge test to the world as HHDL could be rooting out and exposing those who are not loyal, not sincere and well have no Guru Devotion and those who do. Imagine after His Holiness passes... how many of them would be lost and have no more voice, when that happens we can identify the back stabbers and disloyal ones. 

[Ensapa]

Yes I agree with what have been said by both of you. It is, I feel personally a method HHDL is using for us to look inside ourselves, inside our minds. To examine for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. Because the very foundations of our faith in Dorje Shugden has to be erected based on that and not based on what someone told you.

Yes we have the guidance of our kind and compassionate Guru/Gurus, but take for example the issue of the ban... how many "fall wayside" because they merely were told what to do and not doing it because they truly want to or have faith in. Such is the true strength of a believer and sincere practitioner.

As much as we asked Dorje Shugden to never waver when it comes to our "problems", we too must stand steadfast in support of our King.

Hence to recap, what I sincerely believe is HHDL instilling in us and teaching us the true value of contemplation and self analysis in order for us to come to our own conclusions as to what we have to do. If HHDL were to say today... I was "wrong" everybody HAS to propitiate Droje Shugden, you think everyone will? Certainly NOT the Chinese! So on that same logic, perhaps it really is best to give the world the "forbidden fruit" and let them make their own minds up about the practice.

If that is not true compassion, I do not know what is!

In my opinion, those who fall "wayside" due to the ban would create even more negativities for themselves in the long run if they were in Dharma. They would eventually misrepresent Buddhism, and destroy the Dharma from the inside. Remember that mara told the Buddha that he will destroy Buddhism from the inside by posing as disciples who will twist and control the teachings right before the Buddha passed away. Having wayward disciples who do not practice and who misrepresent the teachings or misinterpret them and then spread that misinterpretation is the fastest way to destroy the teachings. So, if these people are kept away from the actual training, at least they have the imprints for their next life but if they are giving the full training despite their shortcomings, the damage that they do to others and themselves will be much more and it might even destroy whatever seeds of Dharma they have in their minds.

Obviously, HHDL cannot say "Sincere people, step this way" so the ban was a perfect way of separating the better quality practitioners from the lower quality practitioners. And I believe it is working in more ways than one as the lesser practitioners just give up and abandon Buddhism but still retain some imprints, or some who still hang on to be "Buddhist" will only do the practices on the surface but do not get the higher teachings and distort them and somehow they will not be able to get near the higher teachings...the ban basically combed out the political, unstable and immature practitioners from the Dharma centers, and only the serious practitioners will hold on to their Guru's samaya and instructions, irregardless of the ban or not.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Don't you love it? There are texts galore about Guru Devotion, how to apply it, how important it is, and why it is the fundamental pillar of Vajrayana Buddhism. Then comes along the Dalai Lama, and explains to you HOW TO QUESTION YOUR GURU!.

Extracted from: http://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_Advice_of_Guru_Dalai_Lama.html



Questioning the Advice of the Guru
by H.H. the XIV. Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso


You should do everything your guru tells you to do, even if it seems strange, right? Wrong. According to His Holiness the Dalai Lama every student is responsible for checking the guru’s instructions against reason and Dharma. The rationalizations that many students tell themselves in the face of odd guru behaviours – »It must be a teaching« or »It’s crazy wisdom that you can’t question« or »It’s a test« - serve only to damage students who don’t understand that even powerful teachers have personalities that sometimes have blind spots and make mistakes.

H.H. the Dalai Lama speaks strongly on this topic in this excerpt adapted from The Path to Enlightenment.¹

The offering of practice means always to live by the teachings of one’s guru. But what happens when the guru gives us advice that we do not wish to follow or that contradicts Dharma and reason? The yardstick must always be logical reasoning and Dharma reason. Any advice that contradicts these is to be rejected. This was said by Buddha himself. If one doubts the validity of what is being said, one should gently push the point and clear all doubts. This task becomes somewhat more sensitive in Highest Tantra, where total surrender to the guru is a prerequisite; but even here this surrender must be made only in a particular sense. If the guru points to the east and tells you to go west, there is little alternative for the student but to make a complaint. This should be done with respect and humility, however, for to show any negativity towards a teacher is not a noble way of repaying his or her kindness.

Perception of faults in the guru should not cause us to feel disrespect, for by demonstrating faults to us the guru is actually showing us what we should abandon. At least, this is the most useful attitude for us to take. An important point here is that the disciple must have a spirit of sincere inquiry and must have clear, rather than blind, devotion.

It is frequently said that the essence of the training in guru yoga is to cultivate the art of seeing everything the guru does as perfect. Personally I myself do not like this to be taken too far. Often we see written in the scriptures, »Every action seen as perfect.« However, this phrase must be seen in the light of Buddha Shakyamuni’s own words: »Accept my teachings only after examining them as an analyst buys gold. Accept nothing out of mere faith in me.« The problem with the practice of seeing everything the guru does as perfect is that it very easily turns to poison for both the guru and the disciple. Therefore, whenever I teach this practice, I always advocate that the tradition of »every action seen as perfect« not be stressed. Should the guru manifest unDharmic qualities or give teachings contradicting Dharma, the instruction on seeing the spiritual master as perfect must give way to reason and Dharma wisdom.

Take myself, for example. Because many of the previous Dalai Lamas were great sages and I am said to be their reincarnation, and also because in this lifetime I give frequent religious discourses, many people place much faith in me, and in their guru yoga practice they visualize me as being a Buddha - I am also regarded by these people as their secular leader. Therefore, this teaching of »every action seen as perfect« can easily become poison for me in my relationship with my people and in my effective administration. I could think to myself, »They all see me as a buddha, and therefore will accept anything I tell them.« Too much faith and imputed purity of perception can quite easily turn things rotten. I always recommend that the teaching on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should not be stressed in the lives of ordinary practitioners. It would be an unfortunate affair if the Buddhadharma, which is established by profound reasoning, were to have to take second place to it.

Perhaps you will think: »The Dalai Lama has not read the Lam Rim scriptures. He does not know that there is no practice of Dharma without the guru.« I am not being disrespectful of the Lam Rim teachings. A student of the spiritual path should rely upon a teacher and should meditate on that teacher’s kindness and good qualities; but the teaching on seeing his or her actions as perfect can only be applied within the context of the Dharma as a whole and the rational approach to knowledge that it advocates. As the teachings on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect is borrowed from Highest Tantra and appears in the Lam Rim mainly to prepare the trainee for tantric practice, beginners must treat it with caution. As for spiritual teachers, if they misrepresent this precept of guru yoga in order to take advantage of naive disciples, their actions are like pouring the liquid fires of hell directly into their stomachs.

The disciple must always keep reason and knowledge of Dharma as principal guidelines. Without this approach it is difficult to digest one’s Dharma experiences. Make a thorough examination before accepting someone as a guru, and even then follow that teacher within the conventions of reason as presented by Buddha. The teachings on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should largely be left for the practice of Highest Tantra, wherein they take on a new meaning. One of the principal yogas in the tantric vehicle is to see the world as a mandala of great bliss and to see oneself and all others as Buddhas. Under these circumstances it becomes absurd to think that you and everyone else are Buddhas, but your guru is not!

Actually, the more respect one is given the more humble one should become, but sometimes this principle becomes reversed. A spiritual teacher must guard himself or herself carefully and should remember the words of Lama Drom Tonpa, »Use respect shown to you as a cause for humility.« This is the teacher’s responsibility. The student has the responsibility of using wisdom in his or her demonstration of faith and respect.

A problem is that we usually only observe those teachings that feed our delusions and ignore those that would overcome them. This leniency can easily lead to one’s downfall. This is why I say that the teaching on seeing all the guru’s actions as perfect can be a poison. Many sectarian problems in Tibet were born and nourished by it.

The First Dalai Lama wrote, »The true spiritual master looks upon all living beings with thoughts of love and shows respect to teachers of all traditions alike. Such a one only harms delusion, the enemy within.« The different traditions have arisen principally as branches of skillful methods for trainees of varying capacities. If we take an aspect of their teachings, such as the precept of »all actions seen as perfect,« and use it for sectarian purposes, how have we repaid the past masters for their kindness in giving and transmitting Dharma? Have we not disgraced them? If we misunderstand and mispractice their teachings, it will hardly please them. Similarly, it is meritorious for a lama to perform rituals or give initiations to benefit people, but if his or her motivation is only material benefit, that person would be better off going into business instead. Using the mask of Dharma to exploit people is a great harm.

We erect elaborate altars and make extensive pilgrimages, but better than these is to remember Buddha’s teachings: »Never create any negative action; always create goodness; aim all practices at cultivating the mind.« When our practice increases delusion, negativity and disturbed states of mind, we know that something is wrong.

It is sometimes said that a major cause of the decline of Buddhism in India eight hundred years ago was the practice of Vajrayana by unqualified people, and sectarianism caused by corruption within the Sangha. Anyone teaching Tibetan Buddhism should keep this in mind when they refer to the precept, »every action of the guru is to be seen as perfect.« This is an extremely dangerous teaching, particularly for beginners.

Personally I do not think that the HHDL advice is against the Guru Devotion practice of Varjayana but rather we can logically request for clarification from our Gurus when we are in doubt.

It is about "how to question your Guru'' not challenge your Guru.  When are Guru's instructions seem out of norm, it is not the instructions but rather our own resistance to either get out of our comfort zone or simply unwilling to move a level higher in spiritual form.

Many lay Buddhist students have not lived in environments that is conducive to realizations to the Dharma and it is the willingness to trust our Guru that will create merits for us to practise well and gain merits and attainments.