Karmapa and Dorje Shugden

[michaela]

Recently, the Dalai Lama's followers have been accusing Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje of practicing Dorje Shugden.  Please note that there is no historical evidence of Karmapa practicing Dorje Shugden.  I think the Dalai Lama followers were using this excuse so they do not look sectarian when they try to intimidate Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje. 
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-karmapa-oppressed-by-dalai-lama-loyalists/

Do let me know your thought!

[grandmapele]

Ha ha ha! the moment the followers of the Dalai Lama accuses the Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje of practicing Dorje Shugden, they are being sectarian.

Simple Definition of sectarian
: relating to religious or political sects and the differences between them - Sectarian | Definition of Sectarian by Merriam-Webster
 
: a division among the members of a group that occurs because they disagree on something - Schism | Definition of Schism by Merriam-Webster

The Buddha condemned schism in strong terms, saying that a person who starts or joins a schism in a Community originally united around a correct understanding of Dhamma and Vinaya, knowing or suspecting that he is not on the side of the Dhamma and Vinaya, is destined to be boiled for an aeon in hell - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (http://info-buddhism.com/sangha_schism.html)

So, I will not take sides but merely believe in the teachings of the Buddha on equanimity, compassion and kindness.

[michaela]

Dear Grandmapelle

I agreed with you.  The Dalai Lama camp has been accusing Dorje Shugden practitioners of being sectarian.  But if it is so, then why accuse a member of other tradition of practicing the deity that they claim to be sectarian and only protect Gelug practitioners?

I believe, they just want to find an excuse to attack and blacken the name of Karmapa Thinley Thaye Dorje

[dsnowlion]

Michaela,

Of course it is another one of CTA's smelly dirty politics! If they could they will re-write the Buddha's story to suit them! What else is new and why are they trying to butt into the Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje business for? Why do they need t harass him? And which idiot is going to believe that Karmapa Thaye Dorje does DS? Any Tibetan would know they are lying through their teeth except for maybe foreigners who don't really know much and just follow blindly whatever news is fed to them. Sad sad to see the CTA degenerate further and getting more desperate. It is not enough they are splitting the Gelugs, now they wanna irritate other sects. But one thing's for sure, they will not dare to make too noise because I don't think the Kagyu Lamas like Lodreu Rabsel Rinpoche are just going shut up and suck it up! Wish the Gelug Lamas got as much support as Him, shows their strong unity. We need to support our Gelug Lamas that stand up against the ban like Tsem Rinpoche! We need to show our solidarity and support!   

[Big Uncle]

Actually, besides the Drukpa Kunley incarnation writing about Dorje Shugden, I have not heard any other  Kagyu lamas talking about Dorje Shugden. I am sure there might be pockets of Shugden practitioners due to the influence of the teachings of this important lama but there doesn't seem to be a trace of it today.

It would be neat if the Karmapa did actually practice but that would be unlikely in the near future. Perhaps, when Dorje Shugden becomes huge later and the ban on Dorje Shugden is down, then it would be a possibility that the Karmapa might adopt it within the Kagyu tradition or that he has a vision or even a lama might bestow upon him. From Dorje Shugden side, it doesn't really matter and from the Kagyu side, they already have their own protectors. However, incorporating Dorje Shugden might be able to invigorate the lineage. That's just my thoughts on the matter.

[DharmaDefender]

What caught my attention is the fact a lama from another tradition has acknowledged that theres a ban against Dorje Shugden at the risk of a bollocking from Dharamsala. If memory serves, no one else has done the same thing. Heres a lama whos a real practitioner and not interested in fame and reputation because hes risking his neck by criticising the Tibetan leadership, to speak up for the truth. Yeah sure its not about Shugden but did he really have to address that topic in his letter? It wouldve been powerful enough to stand on its own otherwise, if hed just purely written about how the Karmapa is suppressed.

Well hopefully his actions empower others to discard their cowardly ways and to speak up.

[James Bond]

Michaela, your reasoning behind why you think the Dalai Lamas followers are accusing Karmapa of practicing Dorje Shugden make sense and i agree with what you have said. By accusing Karmapa it intimidates him as he knows that practicing Dorje Shugden is 'wrong' and is considered false due to the ban.

However, i think that they may have accused him because they want to enforce their power and their ability to establish control amongst anyone who opposes the ban. They want to show everyone that the ban should be taken seriously, and that no matter your position, if your practice Dorje Shugden there will be consequences. Thats what i think their motive could have been.

[thor]

I doubt the Karmapa himself can be intimidated. But accusing him of practicing Shugden is targeted at intimidating his existing followers and potential new followers. As we have seen with many other Gelug lamas, just a mere whiff of Shugden's name is enough to turn the public into a frenzied mob that name calls suspected Shugdenpas as chinese spies, demon worshippers and what not.

It is typical that the Tibetans have conveniently forgotten the trumped-up accusations that Shugden's practice is sectarian. By making up allegations that the Karmapa practices Shugden (regardless of whether he does or not), they are shooting themselves in the other sectarian foot.

[vajratruth]

It is typical that the Tibetans have conveniently forgotten the trumped-up accusations that Shugden's practice is sectarian. By making up allegations that the Karmapa practices Shugden (regardless of whether he does or not), they are shooting themselves in the other sectarian foot.

This is a very good point Thor. How can Dorje Shugden be a Gelugpa deity that encourages sectarianism and by implication Gelugpa intolerance of other Tibetan schools as the accusations go, and at the same time be practiced by the head of a prominent sect also? But we see how the Shugden haters operate - they twist and shape any argument they like so long as it can turn the people on to those they intend to victimise.

The upside to how the Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje is accused of being a Shugden worshipper is not more people see through the propaganda and into the lies told about Shugden practitioners. At the very least, it should make followers of this Karmapa more sympathetic towards Shugden people.

[DharmaSpace]

I remember what the 16th Karmapa said about Dorje Shudgen, and that was the 16th Karmapa was very unhappy certain people made a Dorje Drolo statue stepping on Dorje Shudgen, and he said once day everyone will need to reply on Dorje Shugden. This was told by Dagom Dorjechang, whom I had the good fortune to be in the presence of once before in 2005.

Perhaps the statement from Karma Lodreu Rinpoche is the first step of Karma Kagyu making the first step to associate with Dorje Shugden.....

I know Dagom Rinpoche and the 16th Karmapa will not lie. 

[michaela]

Michaela, your reasoning behind why you think the Dalai Lamas followers are accusing Karmapa of practicing Dorje Shugden make sense and i agree with what you have said. By accusing Karmapa it intimidates him as he knows that practicing Dorje Shugden is 'wrong' and is considered false due to the ban.

However, i think that they may have accused him because they want to enforce their power and their ability to establish control amongst anyone who opposes the ban. They want to show everyone that the ban should be taken seriously, and that no matter your position, if your practice Dorje Shugden there will be consequences. Thats what i think their motive could have been.

Dear James Bond

I have never heard of Karmapa practicing Dorje Shugden.  It is true that Tibetan leadership in exile like to ensure that those who practice Dorje Shugden got their consequences.  They run on the premise that Dorje Shugden practice is bad.  So by accusing the Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje of practicing Dorje Shugden, they want to paint him in negative light just like they described all Dorje Shugden practitioners in negative light.

I think they are up to no good and they will try to get everyone who does not agree with them.

Michaela