From Ronald Johnson:
Mountains, you totally miss the point. Also, it would appear that English is not your first language so you would not be aware of the difference between recognized and confirmed. The implications of Yeshe Sangye's first missive were that Rinpoche was FIRST identified by DS; Rinpoche's letter clearly indicates that this is not so.
Look, anybody can ask DS anything...I could ask him if Tenzin Gyatso was indeed the Dalai Lama and he would confirm it. So what?
Also, to take a couple of sentences out of Jamyang Wangmo's 500-page book and make a federal case out of it is simply obfuscation. Anyway, this happened in the mid-50s. The world was a very different place back then...especially Tibet.
Two replies to Ronald..
“The Lawuda Lama had been a Nyingma yogi, a layman, but it was at Domo Geshe’s monastery that Lama Zopa Rinpoche first met the Gelug teachings of Tibetan Buddhism and where he became a monk. The Dharma Protector associated with the monastery also confirmed that Rinpoche was a reincarnate lama and offered advice concerning his care.
After three years in Pagri, Lama Zopa decided to go to Sera Monastery, one of the great Gelug monastic universities near Lhasa , to continue his studies. However, the Dharma Protector fortuitously advised Rinpoche not to go, but instead to do a meditation retreat. It was at this time, in 1959, when Rinpoche was thirteen, that the Chinese communists suppressed the Tibetan uprising in Lhasa against their continued presence in Tibet and took over the government of the country.”
from the editor's preface of Lama Zopa Rinpoche - The Door To Satisfaction, Wisdom Publications
Dear Ronald,
as we can see, what also happened in the 50s is that Dharmapala Dorje Shugden not only offered advice concerning HE Lama Zopa's care, but also kept him from going to Lhasa in 1559, and into the red army's bombs...
So now we have learned that Dharmapala's statement was confirmation, not first recognition - a great blessing considering his vital connection with Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa, Kopan Monastery and the spreading of the FPMT centers all over the world.
Also not SO small in meaning as in 1951 (when Tibet was indeed a very different place) Dorje Shugden had been officially declared a State Oracle -
"Already at the helm of affairs, in the month of April he consults the famed Oracle of Dungkar Monastery, that of the Deity Dorje Shugden. Thereafter, in consultation with the highest Authorities and eminent spiritual Heads, his Cabinet and Secretariat, deliberations are held at Ripung Gang (a location below the Monastery) to anoint Dorje Shugden as a Tibetan State Oracle. On an auspicious day a solemn ceremony is held in the august presence of the foremost political and religious figures in the land and the Authorities of Dungkar Monastery themselves. Within the Shrine Hall, Dorje Shugden, the Deity, takes possession of his medium and pronounces his good wishes and obeisance to the young ruler. The Dalai Lama, sitting on a throne facing the Deity, reciprocates, highlighting the greatness of Dorje Shugden. Afterwards, his Chamberlain Donyer Phala, on his behalf reads out the Government citation proclaiming the Deity as one of the State Oracles. The rank of Government Official is bestowed upon the medium and other honours bestowed on Domo Dungkar Tashi Lhundup Monastery. The God-King goes on to compose a new Invocation of the Deity Dorje Shugden that has, since then, been a part of the liturgical practices of this Monastery (from an eye-witness account provided by the ex-monk Mr. Jamyang, currently residing in Gangtok, Sikkim, India)."
A great being like HE Lama Zopa doesn't need recognition from anyone, as far as i'm concerned. Yeshe Sangye has quoted what has been written in 'The Lawudo Lama'; now Lama Zopa has added details which are most welcome and make no difference at all as, like i said above and you know very well, Dorje Shugden's protecting and nurturing influence on the success and flourishing of FPMT is simply inestimable.
It seems as indeed anybody can DS anything these days - when something goes wrong! If you like to see the latest example of a federal case made over something that everybody knows is utter non-sense, look at what happened at Drepung just now.
Obfuscation... a great overall term for Tibetan religious politics! May we be forgiven for trying to provide a LITTLE bit of balance in clear, un-obfuscated information here -
yours, beggar
Re: WHO MADE LAMA ZOPA A RINPOCHE?
« Reply #10 on: Today at 10:56:23 AM » Quote Modify Remove
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Dear Ronald,
My English being 1st or 2nd language has no point in this issue. I understand you are angry. I beg your forgiveness and wish you no ill. I am not attacking Lama Zopa nor FPMT, but the whole shugden issue has divided all of us. Imagine our Tibetan Buddhist world and how it would be if the whole Dorje Shugden issue was never brought up? Who did it harm? The majority of the Gelugpa High lamas and Geshes practiced/practice Dorje Shugden including Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. Do you see any difference in Lama Zopa before when he was practicing and now when he says he is not?? He is exactly the same. Which leads you to believe with your own eyes, there is nothing wrong with Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa are both sublime beings who practiced a sublime Dharma protector.
1. Do you deny that Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden his whole life until his death? Was lama Yeshe wrong in this? Was Lama Yeshe's refuge commitments degenerated due to this? If not, why is it so bad, that lama zopa was confirmed by Dorje Shugden?? The point is not if he was confirmed or recognized, the point is that DORJE SHUGDEN'S PRACTICE, ORACLES, TRADITION, LINEAGE WAS WIDESPREAD/PREDOMINATE AND VALID IN THE TIBET OF THE 50'S. And you are right, Tibet WAS VERY DIFFERENT BACK THEN. The gelugpas were one and coexisted with the other sects beautifully.
2. Do you want to hinge on one word of Yeshe Sangye's letter that is identified? Whether Rinpoche indicates it is or not is not the point, the point is DORJE SHUGDEN was used to confirm his reincarnation status.
The Door to Satisfaction by Wisdom Publications page X of Editor's Preface, again Rinpoche mentions clearly in 3rd paragraph that the Dharma Protector of Domo Geshe's Monastery CONFIRMED THAT RINPOCHE WAS A REINCARNATE LAMA AND OFFERED ADVICE CONCERNING HIS CARE. That we can conclude since Rinpoche mentions no other names of who else recognized him, whoever else did not hold much weight in the eyes of the ppl to caretake and train Rinpoche at that time. So they had to consult something to CONFIRM AND MAKE SURE Lama Zopa is who the others say he is. Who did they trust to confirm, Dorje Shugden.
If the great emanation of Tsongkapa, Domo Geshe Rinpoche would have a oracle recieving Dorje Shugden's presence in his temple, definitely Dorje Shugden is a beneficial and beneficient being. Unless Domo Geshe Rinpoche was also unattained? I dont think so. Domo Geshe's famous oracle in which HH the 14th Dalai Lama himself consulted in the 50's at Dungkar Choede, can take full possession of 6 different dharma protectors!
They are:
1. Dorje Shugden
2. Namka Barzin (Dorje Shugden's entourage)
3. Kache Marpo (Dorje Shugden's entourage)
4. Tashi Obar
5. Genyen Jingkarwa
6. Pawo Trobar
Three of them are Dorje Shugden and his acolytes. Surely Domo Geshe Rinpoche whose people and temple nurtured and took care of Lama Zopa in the early years are not all evil, wrong and degenerate for propitiating Dorje Shugden? Domo Geshe is famed for his devotion to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (root guru of Lama Yeshe and HH Dalai Lama), His great meditative concentration on the Vajra Yogini Tantras and his powerful propitiation of Dorje Shugden. Is Domo Geshe wrong to have a famous Dorje Shugden oracle in his monastery that ppl came from all parts of Tibet to consult. On all states of affairs, governmental, secular, etc. Many high incarnations are found by the oracular pronouncements of Dorje Shugden's oracles past and present, so why not Lama Zopa Rinpoche. Even the current Trijang and Zong Rinpoche incarnations were found and confirmed by the Dorje Shugden oracle or Choyang Dulzin Kuten of Gaden. Then only it was presented to the Dalai Lama for formal recognition. What Dorje Shugden found and recognized was further confirmed by HH. Is that so bad that Lama Zopa was also confirmed by the great protector of Lama Yeshe, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Regent Daktra Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche that he is authentic? Of course not.
The incarnations of HH the Dalai Lamas are all confirmed by Nechung Oracle, but recognized and enthroned by the regents of Tibet. So are the confirmations by Nechung Oracle for the Dalai Lama not important? You dont say that Nechung recognized the Dalai Lama, but he plays an important part to confirm that LEADS TO EVENTUAL RECOGNITION. Just the same in the case of Lama Zopa, where Dorje Shugden confirmed he is a real tulku and even gave advice on the care. And in the Tibet of the 50's Dorje Shugden's oracular pronouncements carry great weight as his famous oracle in Lhasa called PANGLUNG KUTEN OR ORACLE where many high lamas, nobilities,and government officials consulted for private and governmental affairs. HH kyabje Trijang Rinpoche very much relied on the accuracy of this oracle of Dorje Shugden/kache marpo. You can read in his personal autobiography of HH kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.
3. If Dorje Shugden was an evil spirit, he would of said that Lama Zopa is not a tulku, dont take care of him. Why would he say that? Because he can forsee Lama Zopa would benefit many and he would try to stop it not being happy about that. Devadatta did whatever he can to stop Buddha, but could not of course. Similarily, Dorje Shugden was so bad, he would try to stop Lama Zopa's works to flower in the future.
4. I see that Sangye has taken a couple of sentences out of Jamyang Wangmo's book, to support the fact that even great lamas alive today are direct, or indirect products of the Dorje Shugden lineage of lamas, oracles and practices. It is not making a federal case. And If it was attempted to be turned into a federal case in any country outside of the Tibetan Exile footholds, it would never be a federal case. Religious freedom is tolerated anywhere in the democratic world. What is happening in the Tibetan settlements can only happen because of the pressures of ostracization. Muslims, satanists,Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, voodoo-followers, Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, Amish, Orthodox, Jews are ALL ALLOWED TO ATTEND ANY BUDDHIST SERMON IN ANY FPMT CENTRE IN THE WORLD. CAN ATTEND ANY TEACHINGS/GATHERINGS/INITIATIONS BY HH DALAI LAMA IN THE WORLD. ONLY DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO. Doesnt that sound funny. Surely Dorje Shugden practitioners are 'better' than satanists?? Christians, Muslims would find the image of the Buddha blasphemous, yet their devotees are never barred from HH Dalai Lama's talks, why is that? Because it cannot never be gotten away with?
5. My point is simple. FPMT as well as many other centres, lamas, organizations in the world has practiced Dorje Shugden peacefully and without incidence for a long time. In some cases, centuries. What is the big furor now. Suddenly HH Dalai Lama is right and all other lamas are wrong?? Cannot be. If so, then HH the Dalai Lama can be wrong also. In the unfortunate time in the future, when HH passes away, what will stop ppl from saying his ban on Dorje Shugden was wrong?? In fact what is to stop people from saying it now. Since our gurus can be wrong, the whole basis of Guru devotional practices is severely disrupted. This is not a Gelugpa issue, but a issue of freedom to practice whatever lineage we wish free of any lamas condemnations. If one lama can condemn, then all can be condemned. Then who is right and who is wrong?? I dont want to go that direction.
6. Dont hinge the whole thing on words such as recognition and confirmation. Lama Yeshe and his root gurus/lineage practiced Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe consulted Dorje Shugden on many issues throughout his whole life. That is what makes FPMT so great now. Lama himself mentions in his books that it is the protector's divine help in all his works that made it grow. FPMT's main sadhanas are composed by lamas that held Dorje Shugden as their principal protectors. So if you wish to throw out Dorje Shugden, you better abandon the practices of for example Cittamanitara, Vajra Yogini and Yamantaka composed by Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche. Since he practiced Dorje Shugden and that is a mistake, then the sadhanas he composed that Gelugpas do everyday could be a mistake also. After all he seems to be able to make mistakes. We have to be very careful. That is not the case definitely.
THE POINT IS THIS: FPMT'S ROOTS ARE DEEP-SEEDED IN CONNECTIONS TO DORJE SHUGDEN. YOU MAY DENY CURRENT CONNECTIONS BUT YOU CANNOT DENY PAST CONNECTIONS. PAST CREATES THE FUTURE. SO IF YOU DYE A SCARF RED, IT CANNOT COME OUT BLUE. YOU CANNOT DENY THE SAMAYA CONNECTIONS TO DORJE SHUGDEN THAT ARE DEEPLY INTERRELATED TO ALL OF FPMT'S LINEAGE LAMAS OF THE PAST THAT CREATES/RESULTED IN ITS GREATNESS NOW. IF DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTICE AND PRACTITIONERS WERE ARE EVIL, THEN THE FRUIT MUST BE EVIL, IN THIS CASE FPMT MUST BE EVIL AND IT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE CASE.
Again Ronald, I write this to you in earnest to help you and many people see that Dorje Shugden has never harmed and will never harm. If he does harm, just have the great lamas do a fire puja or binding puja and be done with it. Do you mean all the dharma protectors of Tibet cannot overcome one 'evil' spirit Dorje Shugden?? It is not as simple as that. There is a bigger picture as predicted by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Dorje Shugden will go global. China will adopt the practice and on a governmental level promote the practice of Dorje Shugden first in China then from China into the world. The practice will go global and strong in the future generations. HH the Dalai Lama knows that. He cannot openly push it. So in his own way he is pushing it. China is already using Dorje Shugden as one of the bargaining 'chips' in the 6th negotions with the exile govt of Tibet as stated by kalon Tripa Samdhong Rinpoche. China is taking great interest and HH is pushing it in that directions. That is a level much more powerful than our likes and dislikes within the Tibetan Buddhist Community. China will adopt Dorje Shugden's practice and will make it grow as HH is pushing it into that direction. As predicted in the early 70's by HH Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang.
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