CAN ANYONE ANSWER MY FIRST TWO QUESTIONS PLEASE? Thank you.

[Ensapa]

Yet another informative old topic that is worthy to be resurrected, so that more can learn from. There are just so many posts in this forum that we all can learn so much from, either about Dorje Shugden, his history, high lamas, CTA, current happenings for the Tibetans and most importantly, Dharma discussions that make us think deeper and learn. This is one of the posts that make us think deeper.

Honeydakini, your response led me to return to iloveds's post, in particular "how much time have you been practicing buddhism?" It prompted my thinking - we can be in Dharma, but is Dharma in us?

Take E-Sangha as an example. I used to observe their activities and although they came across as the authority on Buddhism, the moderators there promoted one view only, theirs (so I do appreciate that this forum is far more open). The forum basically degenerated into a massive wall of hate, supposedly as a reflection of Buddhism. Hence although E-Sangha moderators appeared to be in Dharma and promoting Buddhism, Dharma wasn't really in them.
Esangha was nothing but a platform for the moderators to push their views and make sure that everyone in the forum only follow their view. Their main purpose was to discuss Buddhism, but one of the more knowledgable mods decide to ban the forum from talking about Dorje Shugden because the Dalai Lama said so. Seeing how the entire forum complied, the moderator decide to take the bar further: by banning and talking badly about lamas that did not comply to his view. He started browbeating other moderators into submission too. Finally, he started banning other traditions from the forums, and promoted only his view and much hatred around. By now, the forum had become that moderators forum, and not long after that, the servers crashed, and they were never resurrected or heard of ever again. A fitting end for such a damaging place.

In relation to facts and figures, E-Sangha also showed me that although many people have a deep intellectual grasp of Buddhism, their practice isn't so strong...which ties in to something that was said on this forum about the differences between Buddhism and Dharma. You might know the ins and outs of karma, but if you don't practise it like you know it, what's the point?
People who can talk about Dharma in very technical and dry terms, especially when they sound like they are on a pedestal tend to contradict themselves as well when it comes to actions. Whats the use of talking about tolerance when you cannot even tolerate someone who challenges your view? That contradiction is very prominent in that forum.

Facts and figures are great in that they provide the logic that keeps many people interested in the Dharma, as it is a departure from people's usual reliance on blind faith. Facts and figures are also necessary because they help to clear up wrong view.
Facts, figures and experiential advice are important as they give a solid foundation to our Dharma practice. If we rely on the dry facts alone and our advice cannot be retrofitted to the situation and to the person's mindset, they are as good as the ink on the paper that they were printed on.

However, for the rest of us less intellectual beings, personal experience keeps us interested. And for the rest of us, unless facts and figures are disseminated in clear, laymen's terms, what's the point if we don't understand them? The wrong view will still exist. To me, jargon is an ego thing; it's a way of saying "I know more than you and I'm going to show it to you." Where is the compassion in that?
Personal experience and faith can help carry less intellectual people far. Technical information is always fun to read on and understand, especially the wisdom teachings as they sound so wonderful, but who would be able to apply them at times of need? laypeople often discuss about wisdom teachings and marvel at them, but the minute they hear about a valid Buddhist teaching that debases all of what they know about Buddhism, they instantly fall apart.

Let me just validate that - when I was part of an audience with him before he passed away, HH Dagom Rinpoche touched on how clear speech is compassionate. He said what we know about Dharma is but a tiny speck in the great pantheon of teachings and "if our lama were to explain Dharma's true essence to us, it would blow our minds" (his words, not mine). Hence in their compassion, our lamas explain only a little, and they explain it to clarify issues for us, not to confuse us further.
We are but babies compared to our lamas, who compassionately guide us to their level from ours. It is because of this that we should never criticize them.

I'd like to add one more thing - I think forums reflect the monastic traditions very nicely. First, there's the aspect of debate. Second, there's the situation whereby everyone has different strengths. Some monks are excellent debaters, others show their devotion physically. It doesn't mean the less skilled debaters are any less holy, less attained, have any less of a chance at enlightenment, or have any less right to learn and practise (Cudapanthaka who gained enlightenment just by sweeping is an example of this). On a forum, like in a monastery, everyone has a different function. Some are here to learn, some are here to teach, some are here to observe. Because the learners and teachers are on different levels, does not make anyone's opinion any less valid.
A forum like this is important to provide support and information to those who need it. Every member has a role and every reader has a role, too. The forum's open spirit helps make things interesting and it does match the open spirit that is much talked about in Buddhism.

And one final comment - if in 10 years we don't want to talk about the rights and wrongs about the Dalai Lama, why don't we create the causes now? Law of karma, cause resembles effect, effect resembles cause, right? If we keep focusing on the Dalai Lama's good and bad points forever, we're setting ourselves up to never break away from that.
I dont understand why people just dont want to practice but want to be part of the Dalai Lama side because it is bigger and more valid.

Esangha's ending was caused by their negative karma of spreading hatred and misleading people and it all started with their decision to ban Dorje Shugden from being discussed in the forums. Dharmawheel is following their steps quickly. Lets hope they dont end up like esangha and realize the error of their ways.

[yontenjamyang]

I would like to thank the Administrator for re highlighting this thread. I have not read this thread.

What TK wrote is very comprehensive and logical. I certainly agree that the WSS protest was done very well and organized and I wish that it continues. I also agree that that there is a BAN and hence it should be emphasize as "Lift the Ban".

I will not answer point by point what is written as the article has no flaws and is very logical. The CTA does not have a effective succession plan and we do not see any leaders except perhaps the Karmapa taking some role on behalf of Tibetans after the passing of the present Dalai Lama (sorry). However, the Karmapa has his own problems as well and certainly is not in the league of the Dalai Lama. I doubt that there will be any new incarnation of the Dalai Lama (as hinted by the Dalai Lama himself) and even if there is, it will take time for the new Dalai Lama to mature. perhaps, 20 to 30 years. Also, there is a huge possibility of China recognizing another Dalai Lama. All in all, this means after the present Dalai Lama, Tibetans will have not effective leader(s) to depend on.

So logically, CTA will be rendered ineffective and perhaps finally disintegrate. So what is left? I say Shugden Lamas. Hence, Dorje Shugden will be the future.

[Ensapa]

I would like to thank the Administrator for re highlighting this thread. I have not read this thread.

What TK wrote is very comprehensive and logical. I certainly agree that the WSS protest was done very well and organized and I wish that it continues. I also agree that that there is a BAN and hence it should be emphasize as "Lift the Ban".
The WSS protests does have an effect and I do agree with TK that it has caused the CTA to think twice about what they are doing and what they are saying to people. The resultant effects are also very obvious as we can see HHDL and CTA changing their stance on the practice when talking to international media...but whats sad is that they are still quite hardline with their own Tibetans.

I will not answer point by point what is written as the article has no flaws and is very logical. The CTA does not have a effective succession plan and we do not see any leaders except perhaps the Karmapa taking some role on behalf of Tibetans after the passing of the present Dalai Lama (sorry). However, the Karmapa has his own problems as well and certainly is not in the league of the Dalai Lama. I doubt that there will be any new incarnation of the Dalai Lama (as hinted by the Dalai Lama himself) and even if there is, it will take time for the new Dalai Lama to mature. perhaps, 20 to 30 years. Also, there is a huge possibility of China recognizing another Dalai Lama. All in all, this means after the present Dalai Lama, Tibetans will have not effective leader(s) to depend on.
HHDL IS  grooming the Karmapa to take the role. It is pretty clear that the actions that contradict Buddhism and the broken samaya that the CTA have been doing over the centuries have culminated in a way that it pushes the Dalai Lama away from them, further and further. HHDL will not return anymore until they get things right. For the Gelugs, this means that they are no longer the dominant tradition in Tibet/CTA and what is left is, really nothing but the DS lamas whose practice are sound and stable.

So logically, CTA will be rendered ineffective and perhaps finally disintegrate. So what is left? I say Shugden Lamas. Hence, Dorje Shugden will be the future.
CTA will not survive with or without the Dalai Lama. Their time is up. Their time to change and adapt to the current times is up and they did not do so. Therefore their time is up.

No matter how one wants to see it, it is pretty clear that the CTA is done for in a few years' time, whether or not the Dalai Lama remains as their ripening of their negative karma is fast approaching. HHDL can always be around, but he will not lead the CTA again.

[DharmaSpace]

The dorje shugden practitioners are under a lot of stress, ridicule and pressure  and all of them will remain much stronger in the future once the Dalai Lama does fade from this world. As TK put so well Dorje Shudgen is immortal where as the rest of us will decay when the time comes.

I will go with the immortals at any time. I also believe with the setting up of new religious institutions like Serpom and Shar Gaden goes a long way in making a very resilient group of  Gelugpa practitioners. Everything is impermanent the ban will lift.

[Amitabha]

Esangha has a lot of great amazing collection and insightful experiences for many people to enjoy and exchange. An unfortunate episode for it to be rounded up with crashing. Doubtful that it was because of DS, most often than not it may be the enormous influence of buddha dharma that caused unnecessary worry. In fact, there is no buddha disciples cause harm to anyone due to the basic fact of karmic cause and effect. Everyone was exercising love and care in varying degrees but the influence of dharma may be reckoned as over challenging to the survival towards other walks of life. 

[vajrastorm]

CTA, like all other human organizations and institutions, is impermanent. When the Dalai Lama is no more and the causes and conditions for them to dissolve arise, they will fall apart. There is NO COUNTRY for them to govern and administer! They are guests in a foreign country.

But the King Protector is a Buddha, who will endure and His time is NOW to benefit the people of this degenerate age who need him. He's the one who has sworn to protect Je Tsongkapa's teachings, especially his propounding of Nargajuna's Middle View on Emptiness. We need to create the causes for the ban to be lifted soonest, so that He can come into his own and protect and help great Masters of Je Tsongkapa's teachings to spread the teachings.

Shugden Monasteries, like Shar Gaden Monastery and Serpom Monastery are crucibles for the nurturing of these great Masters. These monasteries must be widely publicized and promoted. There are currently young emanations of previously great Masters as well as many Geshes and Lamas, who are being trained and nurtured in these Monasteries.

Already, there are highly attained Lamas, emanations of previous great Shugden Masters, such as Kyabje Choktrul Rinpoche and Kyabje Choktrul Zong Rinpoche, who have come of age and are ready at any time to come on to the scene and spread the Dharma worldwide. Furthermore, compassionate highly attained Masters, who were devoted Shugden practitioners, have emanated as Tulkus to carry on their work of spreading the Dharma. These emanations are being recognized all the time.

Together, when the time comes(when the ban is lifted and when HH the Dalai Lama passes on) they will work together to usher in the dawn of a new great Renaissance of Buddhism, with Je Tsongkapa's teachings and the practice of Dorje Shugden as the hallmarks of this Renaissance.

[Ensapa]

CTA, like all other human organizations and institutions, is impermanent. When the Dalai Lama is no more and the causes and conditions for them to dissolve arise, they will fall apart. There is NO COUNTRY for them to govern and administer! They are guests in a foreign country.

But the King Protector is a Buddha, who will endure and His time is NOW to benefit the people of this degenerate age who need him. He's the one who has sworn to protect Je Tsongkapa's teachings, especially his propounding of Nargajuna's Middle View on Emptiness. We need to create the causes for the ban to be lifted soonest, so that He can come into his own and protect and help great Masters of Je Tsongkapa's teachings to spread the teachings.

Shugden Monasteries, like Shar Gaden Monastery and Serpom Monastery are crucibles for the nurturing of these great Masters. These monasteries must be widely publicized and promoted. There are currently young emanations of previously great Masters as well as many Geshes and Lamas, who are being trained and nurtured in these Monasteries.

Already, there are highly attained Lamas, emanations of previous great Shugden Masters, such as Kyabje Choktrul Rinpoche and Kyabje Choktrul Zong Rinpoche, who have come of age and are ready at any time to come on to the scene and spread the Dharma worldwide. Furthermore, compassionate highly attained Masters, who were devoted Shugden practitioners, have emanated as Tulkus to carry on their work of spreading the Dharma. These emanations are being recognized all the time.

Together, when the time comes(when the ban is lifted and when HH the Dalai Lama passes on) they will work together to usher in the dawn of a new great Renaissance of Buddhism, with Je Tsongkapa's teachings and the practice of Dorje Shugden as the hallmarks of this Renaissance.

In the latest revelation, it is revealed that 200 years ago, the 14th Dalai Lama has been predicted to live up to a ripe old age of 113 but the ban itself is being slowly dissolved with the Dalai Lama's relaxing of the ban, where he will no longer condemn Dorje Shugden as he has declared earlier to a small group of disciples. But Dorje Shugden's time is now and that can only mean that the Dalai Lama will lift the ban within these few years. During then, CTA will be quite lost and scattered because they would have realized that having blind faith is the biggest mistake that they have ever made.

[prodorjeshugden]

Indeed the protest have effect. The CTA has tried to suck back some things that they said long ago. This shows that the protest do have a effect on the anti shugden people.
Now the ban is starting to weaken and more attention has been pushed towards Dorje Shugden, the ban and the cruelty behind the ban. Soon enough the CTA and the Dalai Lama will be pressured into lifting the ban. But the ban did have one good outcome and that outcome is that Dorje Shugden is now more famous due to various people who spread news about the ban and the underlying reasons for the ban.

I really hope that the ban can be lifted smoothly without any hiccups or violence.