Science can save Tibet: Dalai Lama

[Ensapa]

This is nice, the Dalai Lama finally was able to implement some reforms in Tibetan society with the study of modern science, all of which compliments what the Buddha, the 2 supremes and 6 ornaments have taught for over 2 thousand years ago. This way it would be so much easier for people to relate to Buddhism and vice versa. People these days are very hung up about science, so science is the best way to disseminate Buddhism.

Next thing is that, hopefully, they will realize that the ban is illogical and not scientific and they would stand up against it. perhaps, HHDL is prepping the monks to lift the ban

Science can save Tibet: Dalai Lama
by TIM SULLIVAN, Associated Press, July 6, 2012
India Tibet Monastic Science

Dhramsala, India -- THE shouts of more than a dozen Tibetan monks echo through the small classroom. Fingers are pointed. Voices collide. When an important point is made, the men smack their hands together and stomp the floor, their robes billowing around them.

<< A Tibetan Buddhist monk answers a question during a class at an educational complex in Sarah, India.  (AP Photo/Altaf Qadri) Source: AP

It's the way Tibetan Buddhist scholars have traded ideas for centuries. Among them, the debate-as-shouting match is a discipline and a joy.

But this is something different.

Evolutionary theory is mentioned - loudly. One monk invokes Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Another shouts about the subatomic nature of neutrinos.

In an educational complex perched on the edge of a small river valley, in a place where the Himalayan foothills descend into the Indian plains, a group of about 65 Tibetan monks and nuns are working with American scientists to tie their ancient culture to the modern world.


 "I'd like to go back to my monastery ... to pass on my knowledge to other monks so that they might bring the (scientific) process to others,'' said Tenzin Choegyal, a 29-year-old monk born in exile in India.
If that seems a modest goal, it reflects an immense change in Tibetan culture, where change has traditionally come at a glacial pace.

Isolated for centuries atop the high Himalayan plateau, and refusing entry to nearly all outsiders, Tibet long saw little of value in modernity.

Education was almost completely limited to monastic schools. Magic and mysticism were - and are - important parts of life to many people. New technologies were something to be feared: eyeglasses were largely forbidden until well into the 20th century.

No longer. Pushed by the Dalai Lama, a fierce proponent of modern schooling, a series of programs were created in exile to teach scientific education to monks, the traditional core of Tibetan culture.

At the forefront is an intensive summer program, stretched over five years, that brings professors from Emory University in Atlanta. For six days a week, six hours a day, the professors teach everything from basic math to advanced neuroscience.

``The Buddhist religion has a deep concept of the mind that goes back thousands of years,'' said Larry Young, an Emory psychiatry professor and prominent neuroscientist. ``Now they're learning something different about the mind: the mind-body interface, how the brain controls the body.''

The first group from the Emory program - 26 monks and two nuns - have just finished their five years of summer classes. While they earned no degrees, they are expected to help introduce a science curriculum into the monastic academies, and will take with them Tibetan-language science textbooks the program has developed.

The Dalai Lama realises that ``preservation of the culture will occur through change,'' said Carol Worthman, a professor of anthropology in Emory's Laboratory for Comparative Human Biology. ``You have to change to stay in place.''

But change is a complicated thing. Particularly with a culture like this one.

The monks and nuns in the Emory program are ``the best and the brightest,'' Worthman said, brought to the Sarah complex from monasteries and convents across India and Nepal. While most are in their 20s or 30s, some are far older and long ago earned high-level degrees in Buddhist philosophy.

Still, few learned anything but basic maths before the Emory program. Because of the way they study - focusing on debates and the memorising long written passages, but doing comparatively little writing - few are able to take notes during classroom lectures. Many were raised to see magic as an integral part of the world around them.?

To watch them in class, though, is astonishing.

No one yawns. No one dozes. Since almost no one takes notes, it's easy to think they're not paying attention.?

But then a monk or a nun in a red robe calls out a question about brain chemistry - or cell biology or logic - that can leave their teachers stunned.

Though most studied only religious subjects after eighth grade, they regularly traverse highly complex concepts: ``They really understand how neurocircuits work at a level that's comparable to what we see at an undergraduate neuroscience classroom in the US,'' said Dr Young, the neuroscientist.

For most of the monastics, though, the challenges are not in the academic rigor. They see nothing astonishing about their ability to process vast amounts of information without taking notes, or to remain attentive for hours on end. It is how they have been trained.

For them, the challenges lie in weaving modern science with traditional beliefs.?

The science program ``was sort of like a culture shock for me,'' said Choegyal, who is based at a monastery in southern India. While Tibetan Buddhism puts a high value on scepticism, conclusions are reached through philosophical analysis - not through clinical research and reams of scientific data.

So it was difficult, at first, for many of the students. And the questions ranged across science and philosophy: Are bacteria sentient beings? How does science know that brain chemistry affects emotions? Are Tibetan beliefs in mysticism provable through science?

At times, the program can seem incongruous, given the widespread belief in magic. Such beliefs go all the way to the top: The Dalai Lama still consults the official state oracle, a monk who divines the future from a temple complex not far from here.

But after five years, Choegyal says he has managed to hold onto his core beliefs while delving deeply into science.?

"Buddhism basically talks about truth, or reality, and science really supports that," he said. Questions that science cannot address, like the belief in reincarnation, he brushes aside as "subtle issues."

Instead, he mostly finds echoes across the two cultures.?

He points to karma, the ancient Buddhist belief in a cycle of cause and effect, and how it plays into reincarnation. Then he points to the similarities with evolutionary theory.

"Everything evolves, or it changes," he said, whether in evolution or in reincarnation. "So it's pretty similar, except some sort of reasoning?

[Big Uncle]

This is nice, the Dalai Lama finally was able to implement some reform s in Tibetan society with the study of modern science, all of which compliments what the Buddha, the 2 supremes and 6 ornaments have taught for over 2 thousand years ago. This way it would be so much easier for people to relate to Buddhism and vice versa. People these days are very hung up about science, so science is the best way to disseminate Buddhism.

Next thing is that, hopefully, they will realize that the ban is illogical and not scientific and they would stand up against it. perhaps, HHDL is prepping the monks to lift the ban

Dear Ensapa,
This is the 2nd time I am reading this article on this forum (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2221.0).

I think it is really nice and useful that the monks learn science so they can be kept abreast with the latest developments in the scientific community but I don't see that there is any relevance with the Dorje Shugden ban. If you are going to just copy and paste it here, can you please at least explain the relevance of the Dorje Shugden ban with this article. You made the connection between this article and the Dorje Shugden ban but you have not written any explanation.

I think it is nice that the monks get this form of exposure because it would be useful to engage with an Western audience that long had a deep appreciation for science. But beyond that I just don't see how this is related to the Dorje Shugden ban at all. So Ensapa, can you please enlighten us with the connection that you saw in this article because I just don't see it.

[Lineageholder]

There is inner science and outer science - of the two, inner science is more important because without a good intention, outer science can cause many problems.

I don't really see the value in monks and nuns learning about outer science.  Isn't outer science the science of samsara?  It's the science of inherent existence.  Outer science can never liberate you from suffering but can only cause more problems. Sure,  outer science has given us computers, the internet and mobile phones but it has also given us terrifying nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.  Modern communications methods such as mobile and the internet makes it easier to deploy these weapons, therefore because of outer science, conjoined with delusions, the world is a more dangerous place.

Buddhism doesn't need science to boost its popularity or to give it credibility because it itself is the supreme scientific method for solving human problems.

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa,
This is the 2nd time I am reading this article on this forum (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2221.0).

I think it is really nice and useful that the monks learn science so they can be kept abreast with the latest developments in the scientific community but I don't see that there is any relevance with the Dorje Shugden ban. If you are going to just copy and paste it here, can you please at least explain the relevance of the Dorje Shugden ban with this article. You made the connection between this article and the Dorje Shugden ban but you have not written any explanation.

I think it is nice that the monks get this form of exposure because it would be useful to engage with an Western audience that long had a deep appreciation for science. But beyond that I just don't see how this is related to the Dorje Shugden ban at all. So Ensapa, can you please enlighten us with the connection that you saw in this article because I just don't see it.

I only realized after I posted this article, but in a way, I am also seeing this article from another perspective with regards with the ban. We have to remember that most people currently in Dharamsala lacks exposure to the world. The study of science encourages investigation instead of just acceptance. Everything much have a backing theory, or an experiment or a very logical explanation to back it up. Although in the Dharma texts there are already such systems, having an 'outside' view of taking things from a rational perspective does help more to complement and remind them of logic. Besides, when they learn science and philosophy, they will start to learn history as well and from there they will learn more about the history of the world and they will realize what the ban actually is. Also, science does teach about not being biased in a way and to investigate everything throughly. With relations to the ban, if the same methods are applied to the ban, one will come to the conclusion that it defies logic and therefore it does not make sense and is untrue as what that cannot be proven, in science, equals to not true. That is how I kinda see it anyway.

Although science is of samsara, but it is also what most people of this day and age believe in and Buddhism fits right into science at the same time. So why not that they learn science, and then learn to explain Buddhist philosophy using science? Would that not dispel more misunderstandings and provide a clearer explanation of the Dharma to the people of today? Would it not be a good thing for them to outreach to others?

[Lineageholder]

Although science is of samsara, but it is also what most people of this day and age believe in and Buddhism fits right into science at the same time. So why not that they learn science, and then learn to explain Buddhist philosophy using science? Would that not dispel more misunderstandings and provide a clearer explanation of the Dharma to the people of today? Would it not be a good thing for them to outreach to others?

I don't think we need to mix science and Buddhism - Buddhism doesn't gain anything by this. For example, what does Buddha say about the brain?  Only that it is not the mind.  The brain has nothing to do with human happiness and suffering, and therefore from the point of view of inner science, it's pointless to investigate it further.  Neuroscientists are spending lots of time investigating the brain, but this will never solve human problems. 

Outer science is totally focused on the outside, and its views and intentions are contrary to Dharma.  Inner science can encompass outer science because it is superior and a real object of refuge, but not the other way round.

Why fill these monks and nun's heads full of nonsense?  I'm a science graduate and Buddhism is far superior, obviously.

[Ensapa]

Here's some funny feedback on this issue. But really, this also shows how little people understand about the monastic system of studying...well...opinions are always funny and insubstantial, but they also show us how people think at the same time.

Tibetans, Science, and Swimming
By Barbara O'Brien, July 4, 2012

I got a kick out of this Washington Post story about Tibetan monks and nuns learning science. The Tibetans had no science education before beginning the program, which is being taught in India by visiting professors from Emory University. Even so, the professors are impressed with the Tibetans' abilities to grasp complex material.

This does not surprise me. I say anyone who can master Tibetan metaphysics could challenge Stephen Hawking in the smarts department. What little I've seen of it gives me a headache.

If Tibetan Buddhism were swimming classes, the teachers would have you memorizing all kinds of theoretical texts about swimming before they let you in the wading pool. And then you'd master 27 different strokes before you can progress to the shallow end of the "big" pool.

The Zen approach is more like throwing students into the deep end on Day One, perhaps with some shouted instructions on how to tread water. And then if you don't drown, teachers will work with you to refine your technique. You can learn to swim either way, of course.

[Manjushri]

I suggest that this thread would be more appropriate in the General Buddhism category, because as Big Uncle says, what does this have to do with Dorje Shugden?

To me, Buddhism and Science is a closely related subject, where using science, one can find theoretical concepts on the functionings of body, which ends up in nothing when one passes away. Most things that is learnt in Science, I feel can be explained in Buddhism, but alot of the Buddhist concepts and theories cannot be explained by Science, because Buddhism is the ultimate truth. The objective of learning Buddhism, is to attain enlightenment, a motivation totally opposite to that of science, which is just to prove through methods/experiments, theories. These theories can be revised again and again, as how science has revised its results with proving concepts and theories with increasing technology and times. Buddhist philosophies and concepts have been established for thousands of years since Buddha Shakymuni, and even with time, its underlying and fundamental theories do not change, only the method it is translated to the audiences does. Buddhist philosophies can move with changing times as well but because its foundation is rock solid, that does not change.

To lift the ban and save Tibet is not through Science. It is through its people. It is through acknowledging religious freedom. No matter how much Science they learn, or how much education they receive, it is through acknowledging that persecution in rights is unacceptable. MOVE with the times already, CTA, where religious freedom is the right of Tibetans and mankind all over the world.