What's the similarity between Sharmapa and Shugden's dilemma?

[Mana]

His Holiness the Dalai Lama and CTA (formerly known as Tibetan Government-in-exile in Dharamsala) did not support the integrity and choice of the chosen Karmapa recognized by His Eminence Sharmapa Rinpoche.

The Karma Kagyu leaders for centuries have the full right to choose and recognize the immaculate line of Karmapa incarnations according to their traditions without the interference of the then Tibetan Govt or leaders of the other sects. His Holiness the Dalai Lama and CTA promotes the Orgyen Trinley which was not chosen by the 2nd highest ranking lama of the Karma Kagyu Sect which is Sharmapa Rinpoche. Since the Dalai Lama and CTA never invite Trinley Thaye Dorje (Karmapa chosen by Sharmar Rinpoche) they are saying without words, we do not respect your choice. We do not support or recognize your choice. This is a clear silent message to Sharmapa and the Karma Kagyu tradition, they must come under the rule, law and edicts of Dalai Lama and CTA. You have to abide by their choice even if there is no tradition to support this in the history of the Karma Kagyu school.
 
Similarily, in the case of the 350 year Shugden ban, His Holiness Dalai Lama and CTA have no rights to ban this practice or speak against this practice. The official head of the Gelug School is His Holiness Gaden Tripa. But this head have no chance to speak or head the Gelug School as Dalai Lama and CTA do not allow them to or face ostracization.

The Karma Kagyu School have the full capacity to recognize their own Karmapas and take care of their own affairs. They do not need HH Dalai Lama or CTA in any of these matters. For the same reasons, the Dalai Lama and CTA should not ban Shugden’s practice among the Gelugs. He should allow freedom of practice and integrity among the various schools of Tibetan Buddhism and their leaders. He should not interfere in their centuries old practices. No words, bans or threats should be made against anyone practicing Shugden by Dalai Lama and CTA. It is unconstitutional, against freedom of religion and no civilized democratic leader would dare utter bans against any religious worship.

Since Dalai Lama is the secular head of Tibet for so long, he should allow all Tibetans practicing and not practicing Shugden to join in fully with the Tibetan people and have unity. Not be divided because of religion. All should be free to join in any of the Dalai Lama’s talks. If Dalai Lama is giving religious sermons, then Shugden people may not wish to join or be banned from joining, but secular gatherings they should be allowed to join as they are Tibetans first and religion second. As the Dalai Lama was the secular leader, he should allow fairness. Now that the Dalai Lama has retired, all Shugden practitioners should be able to join in all meetings, decisions, votes, activities with the new elected head such as Lobsang Sangye and all future elected heads. Whatever Tibetans choose to believe, they should be allowed into the Tibetan mainstream.

Admin

Long Life Ceremony for Kunzig Shamar Rinpoche

source: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12121


It seems the Karmapa Thaye Dorje and Sharmapa Rinpoche camp are doing very well even without the so called support of the CTA as in this video. CTA acts very clever because in their silence regarding the Sharmapa's candidate condemns the incarnation of Thaye Dorje as chosen by Sharmapa. CTA never invites Thaye Dorje for any events in Dharamsala. This is a clear indication they do not support and in their silence suppresses the Sharmapa's choice of Karmapa effectively interfering in Kagyu affairs.

CTA are slowly eliminating themselves. It's just a matter of time.  In time like the khata they used to strangle Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen 350 years ago will return upon themselves eliminating their own existence like the wheel of sharp weapons returning full force. CTA are literally slowly stangling themselves amidst all the harm and negative politics they have created.


Mana

[beggar]

That's certainly an interesting perspective. I agree with all you have said and pointed out. You've made many obvious points, though unfortunately, I don't think many of the Tibetans even realise the double standards that are happening everywhere throughout the Tibetan Buddhist community.

You see, the Dalai Lama has been so long revered as their king, that the lines between church and state - so necessary in every successful nation and peoples - have been blurred for a long time. The Dalai Lama serves as both a secular head and a spiritual head, and the edicts and "orders" he issues have necessarily become one AND the other. So a spiritual instruction also becomes a secular one, and vice versa.

Whatever the Dalai Lama chooses to say or instruct in the spiritual sphere is his prerogative as their spiritual leader. If he says that one particular practice or other is not encouraged, or that he doesn't wish to see certain religious groups, for whatever reasons, that's within his jurisdiction as a religious leader. (Whether it's right or not is a different issue).

But you see, the problem has become much more complicated than that because it has creeped its way over the secular affairs of their community. Dorje Shugden practitioners are not permitted to his spiritual activities - dharma talks, initiations or whatever. Perhaps you could still argue that that is a spiritual decision he is entitled to as their head. But certainly, as a secular head, he should still care for the welfare and rights of his people AS TIBETAN CITIZENS AND TIBETAN PEOPLE, regardless of their religious choices and denominations?

How can someone who makes a certain religious choice be excluded completely from all other secular activities and social, welfare rights, which is the right and privilege of EVERY CITIZEN? How does one's religious choices bear onto their civil rights and standing? It is incongruous.

Sadly though, this is the situation within the tibetan exiled community now. Dorje Shugden practitioners are ostracised by fellow Dharma practitioners for their spiritual choices AND they are also shunned by their own people, denied welfare, education, medical help or even the right to vote, though these activities and rights have nothing to do with being religious and everyone to do with just being a human and a part of a community.

[hope rainbow]

Hopefully, there is still time for new generations of Tibetans in exile to change that situation, and with the ban being lifted soon (fingers crossed), there will be an opportunity to reconcile a family that have argued and split, for no other reason than ignorance.

I am looking forward to the future with a mind of confidence.

[shugdenprotect]

Thank you Mana for another great thread.

Having it clearly written in black and white that the CTA and HH are responsible for each and every citizen of Tibet regardless of his/her choice of religion is a further highlight on their failure to fulfill their responsibility towards their own people. It cannot be any clearer the wrong that the CTA has done to Dorje Shugden practitioners on the foundation of basic human rights where every citizen should receive the protection of their government and political leader.

However, fret not; karma will play its role for those who have acted wrongly. Consequences of the negative actions by the CTA are already arising with its “downgrade” from a government body to an administration. Similarly, the Karmapa that the CTA recognized is getting a lot of poor publicity for corruption. This will certainly dampen their Karmapa’s authority in the Dharma world. I believe this is what lay people call: what goes around comes around.

The examples above also reinforce the belief that the CTA’s actions are negative because only negative actions can cause the manifestation of negative consequences.

[Ensapa]

Let's see:

- Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's incarnation was banned because he gained more power than the government at that time. Sharmapa was banned because he amassed more wealth than the Tibetan Government for that time. The current Sharmapa was the only official one to be recognized after 3-4 incarnations, all of which had to go into hiding.

- Both Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen and Sharmapa had their ladrangs closed down and everything confiscated by the government...apparently its an easier way of replenishing the coffers rather than finding new ways to generate income.

- Both tulkus had negative things talked about them, and have accusations thrown at them with no real proof.

So yes, I can see the similarities.

[dsiluvu]

I am reviving this topic because it is rather interesting to look at that even the Sharmapas does not see eye to eye with the CTA and the Dalai Lama's decisions in many aspects.

Extracted from the world wide web... here is an interesting letter written to His Holiness on the conflict within the Tibetan Buddhist schools, though it is a rather an old letter but sure is interesting to see that clearly not everyone thinks that His Holiness/CTA is has full authority...

An Open Letter
From INTERNATIONAL KARMA KAGYU ORGANISATION
Extracts from An Open letter to His Holiness the Dalai Lama
Kathmandu, 17th March 2001

In 1961 the Tibetan government in exile proposed to merge the four Tibetan schools into one religious body headed by Your Holiness. This policy inflicted serious spiritual suffering on much of the Tibetan exile community. Rallying behind Karmapa's authority, thirteen Tibetan settlements challenged the Exile Government's plan and as a consequence the whole scheme was abandoned. Later in the seventies Karmapa came under blame because he had chosen to defend the autonomy of the three other lineages….

In July 2000, Your Holiness' involvement in the matter went even further. Your Holiness informed H.H. Shamar Rinpoche in writing that even if an authentic prediction from the 16th Karmapa was found and presented, it would not sway your insistence that Urgyen Trinley is the Throneholder-Karmapa. By doing so Your Holiness would retrospectively deprive the undisputed 16th Karmapa of his right to determine his own reincarnation. Such a preposterous claim goes against the Karma Kagyu tradition and sets the stage for a take-over of the Karma Kagyu School by Your Holiness' School and Government.

Up until Your Holiness' interference in 1992, no other Dalai Lama has ever played a role in the recognition of a genuine Karmapa. As Your Holiness well knows, the Karmapa incarnations precede the Dalai Lama line by over three hundred years. There is no historical precedent for Your Holiness' current involvement.

We highly respect and support Your Holiness' struggle for the welfare and freedom of the Tibetan people. We therefore request you to apply the same goodwill in the case of the Karmapa controversy. For the sake of the integrity of our lineage, we urge Your Holiness to gracefully bow out of this internal conflict of the Karma Kagyu School. We also ask for Your Holiness' support regarding our view that the whole world will benefit by preserving the rich diversity of all four schools, including the Karma Kagyu.We sincerely make wishes for Your Holiness' long life and continued health. Most respectfully, for and on behalf of all delegates to the International Karma Kagyu Conference
H.H. Luehrs (Chairman)

Later Comments from the Sharmapa
“I believe that the Karma Kagyu should be able to choose its own spiritual leader in the traditional way,” Shamar told his students. “Ogyen Trinley was not chosen in the traditional way, but through political interference from the Tibetan exile government, the government of China and many others. All the other religious schools of Tibet are able to choose their leaders on their own. Why can’t we choose ours? His Holiness Dalai Lama is putting politics before religion in this case.

“Because his devotees in foreign countries are not in the habit of questioning his actions, they blindly support His Holiness Dalai Lama in this case. I call such followers ‘package believers.’ They follow the Dalai Lama because he is a Buddhist teacher and leader of Tibetans, so that is all they need to know. They just accept the whole package without investigating for themselves whether what His Holiness does is really right in this case. For example, if I had a house, and the Dalai Lama wanted to take it for himself, these package believers among his devotees would say that I am wrong to protect my property or even to complain, and that he is right to take it.

“I understand when Tibetans feel this way; their livelihood may depend on being on good terms with the Tibetan exile administration in India. Maybe they would lose their job if they questioned the Dalai Lama’s right to choose the Karmapa. But for people around the world, this is an unhealthy development in Buddhism. If one man is so admired around the world that he can do anything he wants without fair scrutiny, then he is effectively a dictator. There is no oversight. And, if the Karma Kagyu school cannot choose its own leader, does this set a precedent for the other religious schools of Tibet? Will the Dalai Lama choose their leaders too?

Dharma is about thinking for yourself. It is not about automatically following a teacher in all things, no matter how respected that teacher may be. More than anyone else, Buddhists should respect other people’s rights—their human rights and their religious freedom.”

The Shamar Rinpoche also says elsewhere: "But if His Holiness is merely using his immense popularity in the Himalayas, in India , and around the world in an attempt to usurp control over the Karmapa Labrang, then I must respectfully reject his opinion about Rumtek. I realize that HH Dalai Lama wants to unite the Tibetan people to work for their freedom. But that is no reason to trample on the human rights and religious freedom of Buddhist believers. As our cause is just, so we should respect human rights in all situations, not only when it is convenient for us to do so.

All leaders, no matter how virtuous, must have limits on their power. Many popular, charismatic leaders in the past have used popularity and prestige to set themselves up as dictators. Perhaps these leaders had good intentions and hoped that by increasing their own power they could accomplish more good in the world. But in the end, absolute rule has always led to suffering.I hope and pray that His Holiness will not act like such a dictator, and that he will not use mass support to claim authority over the Karmapa that he does not have and to trample the religious freedom of Karma Kagyu believers."

Yes we see the similarities happening with Dorje Shugden practitioners... amazing the similarities and what powerful logic stated here by the Sharmapa which is exactly what we Shugdenpas are saying as well.

[Big Uncle]

Hmmm... This is a very interesting proposition. First of all, the Sharmarpa's line of incarnation has had a long history with the Dalai Lama's line. During the reign of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, due to political maneuvering, the Sharmapa's line of incarnation was banned for 200 years.

It was only reinstated with the current incarnation at the request of the previous Karmapa and the current Dalai Lama. The government was so bad that they buried the red hat of the Sharmapa's right under the stone floors outside the Jokhang so people would walk over it to humiliate the Kagyu School. This is so similar to what the CTA is doing to Dorje Shugden practitioners.

They allow over-zealous monks and nuns to destroy many sacred statues and thangkas of Dorje Shugden. This and many unthinkable acts are the hallmark of the medieval rule of the Tibetan government and now, the Central Tibetan Administration. No wonder they lost Tibet and they are forced to be humiliated with the downgrade of the Tibetan Government in Exile to just Central Tibetan Administration. They are definitely receiving the karma back.

[diamond girl]

Understanding the Karmapa Controversy and Dalai Lama is indeed quite frightening because it is all political. The Dalai Lama recognises the Karmapa chosen by the Chinese government (Ogyen Trinley), not the one recognised by centuries of tradition by the Shamar Rinpoche (Trinley Thaye Dorje). The danger lies that Karmapa (Ogyen Trinley) will take over from HHDL, thus it will be the China chosen one. Therefore, China controls Buddhism when that time comes? What happens to Dorje Shugden?

Watch both these videos, join the dots....

The Dalai Lama's Successor and the Karmapa Controversy	Small | Large

The Dalai Lama & the Karmapa Controversy	Small | Large

[vajratruth]

It is of course interesting to read about the many controversies surrounding the appointment of the 17th Karmapa, the role of Tai Situ Rinpoche, his link to the Chinese government, the opposition by Shamar Rinpoche to Tai Situ's candidate and the former's claim of political skullduggery going so far as to hint that the present Orgyen Trinley may not even be the original person, and finally how the Dalai Lama's involvement is really  a coup d'etat against the Karma Kagyu sect.

On the face of it, the Dalai Lama has created a split amongst the Kagyu sect with his interference of the Karmapa issue, and a split in the Gelug sect with his ban on Dorje Shugden

What stands out to me is this: as of today, Orgyen Trinley is the only significant Tibetan religious figure who is recognized and accepted  by both the Chinese government as well as the Dalai Lama.

China's interest in Orgyen Trinley is obvious. HHDL has personally stated that Orgeyn Trinley is to be his successor.  If Orgyen Trinley does go on to succeed the Dalai Lama as the face and authority of world Buddhism, China would have established itself as having the right to recognize and enthrone reincarnations of High Lamas.

As for the Dalai Lama's endorsement of Orgeyn Trinley as the 17th Karmapa, what could possibly be HH's motive?    Could it be the Dalai Lama's best political move in bridging the gap between China and Tibet? Through his protege and student, the Dalai Lama would have finally exerted influence over China.

[michaela]

From this interesting thread, I would like to add some information:

•   It is possible for an enlightened beings like Karmapa to have more than one incarnation.  At the end, if the incarnation is the right one, we will be able to see plenty of evidence on how the true incarnation strives to benefit beings.  I have no clairvoyance to see which Karmapa is the correct one or the main incarnation, but I am very interested to see the result and benefits that they will bring to beings.

•   HHDL confirmed Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa because he was asked to do so by Kagyu Lama.  Ogyen Trinley Dorje was first recognized by Situ Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche (Both are high Kagyu Lama) and Trinley Thaye Dorje was first recognized by Shamar Rinpoche.  All Situ Rinpoche, Gyaltsab Rinpoche and Shamar Rinpoche asked HHDL for confirmation as to which incarnation is the correct one.  In this case HHDL consistently responded that Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the correct incarnation.  This is the fact that is often omited when discussing Karmapa’s controversy and when the emphasize of the argument is to show that HHDL is going beyond his authority.  Both Karmapas are recognized by Kagyu Lamas.

•   Ogyen Trinley Dorje is not the agent of Chinese.  Although the Chinese recognized Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the true Karmapa.  Ogyen Trinley Dorje fled Tibet years ago to India because he refused to bow to the Chinese’s will to condemn HHDL.  I believe he fled Tibet for the same reason as when HHDL fled Tibet, because there was not freedom to practice religion in China occupied Tibet.  I think this is an act of an exceptional being who follow what he believed in and refused to bow to the stronger power.

I hope this will add some perspective to HHDL controversy.

[michaela]

Sorry, I mean Karmapa controvery, Not HHDL controversy.  My hands and my mind were not synchronized this morning 

[Ensapa]

From this interesting thread, I would like to add some information:

•   It is possible for an enlightened beings like Karmapa to have more than one incarnation.  At the end, if the incarnation is the right one, we will be able to see plenty of evidence on how the true incarnation strives to benefit beings.  I have no clairvoyance to see which Karmapa is the correct one or the main incarnation, but I am very interested to see the result and benefits that they will bring to beings

Yes it is possible for one high lama to have more than 1 reincarnation. 1 highly realized Lama can actually have 5 different emanations: body, speech, mind, quality and activity emanations. For example, Jamyang Khyetse Wangpo has 5 Incarnations, namely:

Body emanation - Chokyi Wangpo (1894 - 1909) the first Dzongsat Khyentse
Speech emanation - Karma Khyentse Ozer (1896-1945) of Palpung Beru Khyentse
Mind emanation - Guru Tsewang of Dzogchen Khyentse
Quality emanation - Kunzang Drodul Dorje (1897-1946) of Dza Palme Khyentse
Activity emanation - Chokyi Lodro (1893-1959) of Kathok Khyentse (Second Dzongsar Khyentse Chokyi Lodro) after the death of Dzongsar Khyentse Choyki Wangpo at a very young age.  Kathok Khyentse moved to Dzongsar Monastery, the seat of the previous Khyentse Wangpo, and since then Kathok Khyentse became known as the (Dzongsar Khyentse Chokyi Lodro).
Dilgo Khyentse Tashi Paljor (1910-1991) of Shechen Khyentse Dilgo family was an emanation of Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo. He was directly recognized by Dzongsar Khyentse Chokyi Lodro and many other lamas and masters.

So it is possible for one lama to have many emanations, but in the case of the karmapa, to me, the karmapa that acts in the way of his predecessor, the 16th karmapa is the "real" one. If they both manifest it, then both are real incarnations. There are 2 things:

1) The Karmapas are very close with the Trijangs. The 16th Karmapa paid regular visits to Trijang Rinpoche. Why is neither of the Karmapas seeing him now?
2) The 16th Karmapa is known to be symphatetic to Dorje Shugden:

Quote of a famous incident: in the 70s or 80s the 16th Karmapa went to an opening of a Nyingma monastery in Nepal. There, they had a statue of Dorje Drolo which had been modified and shown to be stepping on Dorje Shugden. Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.

More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden.

This incident has been written and recorded down by Dagom Rinpoche himself, see the sungbum in the attached pic.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.0

I am still waiting to see which karmapa will resume the acts of the previous karmapas.
[/color]
•   HHDL confirmed Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa because he was asked to do so by Kagyu Lama.  Ogyen Trinley Dorje was first recognized by Situ Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche (Both are high Kagyu Lama) and Trinley Thaye Dorje was first recognized by Shamar Rinpoche.  All Situ Rinpoche, Gyaltsab Rinpoche and Shamar Rinpoche asked HHDL for confirmation as to which incarnation is the correct one.  In this case HHDL consistently responded that Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the correct incarnation.  This is the fact that is often omited when discussing Karmapa’s controversy and when the emphasize of the argument is to show that HHDL is going beyond his authority.  Both Karmapas are recognized by Kagyu Lamas.

In the Buddha's Not Smiling - Uncovering Corruption at the Heart of Tibetan Buddhism Today by Erik Curren that was commissioned and requested by the Sharmapa himself to be written and published as Tai Situpa was hiring writers to write against him pertaining the karmapa issue and this book was meant to clear things up, the Sharmapa did imply that an unknown party did threaten the Dalai Lama to recognize Ogyen Trinley, and if he refused, there will be blood. This is an interesting point that until today, no one is able to prove or explain.

•   Ogyen Trinley Dorje is not the agent of Chinese.  Although the Chinese recognized Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the true Karmapa.  Ogyen Trinley Dorje fled Tibet years ago to India because he refused to bow to the Chinese’s will to condemn HHDL.  I believe he fled Tibet for the same reason as when HHDL fled Tibet, because there was not freedom to practice religion in China occupied Tibet.  I think this is an act of an exceptional being who follow what he believed in and refused to bow to the stronger power.
This shows that China's Panchen Lama is also the right one, because if HHDL and China's choices do match, and the official candidate was just a smokescreen, this means that HHDL had his plans ready a long time ago and that he is only doing this to infiltrate China from within.

I have added even more information to your information as I do find them relevant in some way or another and i do hope that more people would find a new perspective to this issue.
I hope this will add some perspective to HHDL controversy.

[Dondrup Shugden]

The same source of suffering that is the CTA.

Good read the problems that have arisen with having 2 karmapas.