Shouldn’t Dorje Shugden people be allowed to redeem themselves?

[DharmaDefender]

Have you lot been able to read this and leave a comment? Sidelining Shugden practitioners has no benefit for the Tibetan leadership, despite what they might think. Spiritually, economically, politically speaking, theres been absolutely no benefit at all.

In fact, in the last 20 years, any casual observer will easily notice that the Tibetan leadership have actually experienced a decline in their international standing and reputation. Makes you wonder eh, what they were banning Shugden for all along?

Anyway, heres an extract for your lazy convenience 

Shouldn’t Dorje Shugden people be allowed to redeem themselves?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=54354

Left to right: Kungo Palden-la (in Tibetan dress; the devoted attendant of H.H. Trijang Rinpoche), H.E. Kensur Lati Rinpoche (background), H.E. Zemey Rinpoche, H.H. Zong Rinpoche, H.E. Kensur Rinpoche Lobsang Denpa (second from right) and H.E. Kensur Jampa Yeshe (far right). Despite the immense scholarship and attainments of these senior practitioners, if they were alive today, none of them would be allowed back to Gaden Monastery for the sole reason that they all practiced Dorje Shugden. Yes, as ridiculous as it sounds, these senior practitioners of such great repute would never be allowed to 'redeem' themselves in the hallowed halls of Gaden. Also in the picture is a young H.H. Pabongka Chocktrul Rinpoche.

One of the main points of contention against Dorje Shugden is that engaging in his practice leads us to the three lower realms. His practitioners are frequently accused of engaging in spirit worship, a big no-no in the Buddhist tradition. It is said that engaging in spirit worship results in taking rebirth as an animal, hungry ghost or in the hell realms.

Notwithstanding the lack of logic in that statement, let us for a moment assume that it is accurate to claim that Dorje Shugden practice sends us to the three lower realms. That being the case, since this is our last human rebirth before we are reborn in the lower realms, would it not behoove a supposedly Buddhist government like the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA; the Tibetan leadership) to allow us the opportunity to redeem ourselves by engaging in religious activities that they deem real? If the Tibetan leadership, who are based in Dharamsala, had so much conviction in their claim that Shugden practitioners will go to the three lower realms, it should actually motivate them to try even harder to ‘save’ Dorje Shugden practitioners by giving them even more opportunities to engage in religious activities that they approve of. Yet, through the machinations of the ban, all of those opportunities are denied to Dorje Shugden devotees.

Do these supporters of the Tibetan leadership, seen here outside one of the Dalai Lama's talks on compassion and tolerance, look like they are serious about helping or saving Dorje Shugden practitioners? Do they look as though they would ever be tolerant, let alone accepting, of Dorje Shugden devotees? This is the type of behavior that the Tibetan leadership encourages.

A simple comparison can be made with the Christian faith to see why the technique of segregation will not work in the Tibetan leadership’s favor. For people who are not Christian, do the Christians ban these non-believers from their churches? Or do they invite them in, hoping to find an opportunity to convert them to Christianity? And should they fail to convert someone to Christianity, do Christians give up or do they keep trying again? Do Jehovah’s Witnesses, for example, stop at the first door that closes in their face or do they keep knocking and knocking until someone finally answers in a positive manner?

Using this very simple comparison, you can see why the Dorje Shugden ban does not make sense and ultimately, will fail. Failure to convince Shugden practitioners to swear out of their practice should in fact compel the CTA to try and get even closer to Dorje Shugden practitioners, to try and find a way to convince them to swear out. Instead, unlike the faithful Christians, the Tibetan leadership opts to ostracize Dorje Shugden practitioners, enacting mass discrimination against them. Dorje Shugden practitioners are not given the chance to redeem themselves by becoming born-again Buddhists, because they are marginalized in mainstream society and not brought back into the fold.

[Matibhadra]

The only redemption for Dorje Shugden people is to place the evil dalie where he belongs, the garbage bin of history, thus redeeming themselves from their slavery to the malefic cult leader.

[KarmaRangdrol]

Yeah sure, whatever you say. Your mind's just stuck on "Dalai Lama's evil". Do you know it's not healthy to hate in such great amounts? I'm starting to think you don't even bother reading the articles and you're just using this forum as a platform for your own views. Not that there's anything wrong about that but it just comes across as a little disrespectful

[Matibhadra]

Yeah sure, whatever you say. Your mind's just stuck on "Dalai Lama's evil".

What then do you suggest? That the evil dalie is “Chenrezig”?

Do you know it's not healthy to hate in such great amounts?

Why then do you hate so much my speech about the evil dalie?

I'm starting to think you don't even bother reading the articles

Show it, instead of blabbering about your unwarranted guesses.

and you're just using this forum as a platform for your own views.

Whose views am I supposed to express then? Your views? Are you unable to express your own views by yourself?

Not that there's anything wrong about that but it just comes across as a little disrespectful

Why should expressing one's own views be “disrespectful”?

If you feel “disrespected” by the mere fact that someone expresses their own views, the problem is on your side, not mine.

[AshRao]

@Matibhadra

While I'm all for freedom of expression, and being able to share our views about certain issues. There are better ways to do this. Granted that KarmaRangdrol did not reply in the best of manners, the way you ever so meticulously reply to others really puts people off wanting to have further conversation or dialogue with you. Please be reminded this is a forum for people to discuss issues, not to find fault in everything another person says.

I understand very well why you think that the Dalai Lama is evil. But you must remember that not all people would feel the same way, even if they are Dorje Shugden practitioners. Least we forget, as i have been told on many occasion by many people, it was Kyab Je Trijang Dorje Chang Rinpoche who told his students never to talk badly about the Dalai Lama no matter what would happen. So it's quite obvious that one of the greatest Dorje Shugden gurus that have ever lived, one who composed and taught works on Dorje Shugden that are still in use until this very day, thought of the Dalai Lama as Avalokiteshvara.

[christine V]

Well, to ostracized Dorje Shugden's practitioners obviously to me were abuse of the Human Rights. The CTA knew about Human Rights very well. In fact, this have been in their fight as part of Tibetan causes. Thus, the reason they ostracized Dorje Shugden's practitioner is to separate and rules their peoples, so that, those Tibetan refugees in exile are too busy to see that their leaders over 60 years have failed to bring them any success in Tibetan cause. Maybe the CTA would even want to remain as a refugees status so that their pocket money could be more. To go back to Tibet in China, it means every single things they have now, power, money, fame would not be gain.

It is a good point on Christinity always tried hard to brought people into Christian. To try to save people from hell. As a Buddhist, if CTA is sincere practitioners of Buddhism, they should not create more hell into their people in exile. Should not create more problems to India who kindly host them for 60 years. These are not actions that show the CTA practice Dharma

[Belinda Mae]

If it is said that engaging in spirit worship results in taking rebirth as an animal, hungry ghost or in the hell realms then why High Lamas's reincarnations keep returning to teach the Dharma? It doesn't make sense, isn't it?

Given a prisoner, they will also have their chance to change to a better person when they are out from the prison. Why Dorje Shugden practitioners on the other hand are like given a death sentence? Forever no chance to prove themselves and practice is not harmful.

Supporters of Dalai Lama should follow Dalai Lama's good qualities and not misbehave in the public. It will misrepresent the Dalai Lama and these supporters are creating bad karma for themselves.

[Richardlaktam]

To be honest, despite this topic "Shouldn't Dorje Shugden people be allowed to redeem themselves?", i find that the ban is really ridiculous. Those people including CTA who execute the ban are even more ridiculous. I think they don't have Guru. Dalai Lama claimed practicing Dorje Shugden will shorten his life, claimed practicing Dorje Shugden will go to the lower realm, excuse me, who said? Dalai Lama said. Hello??? Am I in Buddhism??? Buddhism, all the Buddha's teaching are about truth, logical, traceable, yes, the key word is "traceable", able to trace, the truth, some even can be explained by science nowadays. It's just because of Dalai Lama said so, not logic at all, so they execute the ban??? And expect everybody abandon their Guru and give up Dorje Shugden practice??? What other words than ridiculous can I use to say this? Dalai Lama and CTA are really out of their mind. And who is Dalai Lama? Chenrezig? Who said so? Since Dalai Lama said his Guru is wrong, then who said Dalai Lama is Chenrezig is correct? What if Donald Trump said this Dalai Lama is fake??? Come on, The President of United State said Dalai Lama is fake! Wouldn't it be more appealing than what Dalai Lama said?
Ok, back to the topic. Yes, Dorje Shugden people should be allowed to redeem themselves from the religion point of view. They should be rescued, since they said practicing Dorje Shugden is worshiping devil. But, there's no such thing under the governance of Tibetan Leadership. No such thing is rescue, no such thing is redeem. They (the Tibetan Leadership) do things blindly, bluntly, selfishly, do you think they care about redeeming oneself?
Lastly, to be honest, will you listen to someone who can loudly say his Guru is wrong? Will you listen to someone who doesn't have Guru devotion? If all his Guru, all the high Lama were wrong, then who is he? Even the high Lama who claim Dalai Lama is Chenrezig could be wrong. So, who is right? 

[aboutthetruth]

@Matibhadra

While I'm all for freedom of expression, and being able to share our views about certain issues. There are better ways to do this. Granted that KarmaRangdrol did not reply in the best of manners, the way you ever so meticulously reply to others really puts people off wanting to have further conversation or dialogue with you. Please be reminded this is a forum for people to discuss issues, not to find fault in everything another person says.

I understand very well why you think that the Dalai Lama is evil. But you must remember that not all people would feel the same way, even if they are Dorje Shugden practitioners. Least we forget, as i have been told on many occasion by many people, it was Kyab Je Trijang Dorje Chang Rinpoche who told his students never to talk badly about the Dalai Lama no matter what would happen. So it's quite obvious that one of the greatest Dorje Shugden gurus that have ever lived, one who composed and taught works on Dorje Shugden that are still in use until this very day, thought of the Dalai Lama as Avalokiteshvara.

Good point. Trouble is that in some people's eyes, the problem and blame will always be on someone else's side, and never their own.

[dsnowlion]

@Matibhadra

While I'm all for freedom of expression, and being able to share our views about certain issues. There are better ways to do this. Granted that KarmaRangdrol did not reply in the best of manners, the way you ever so meticulously reply to others really puts people off wanting to have further conversation or dialogue with you. Please be reminded this is a forum for people to discuss issues, not to find fault in everything another person says.

I understand very well why you think that the Dalai Lama is evil. But you must remember that not all people would feel the same way, even if they are Dorje Shugden practitioners. Least we forget, as i have been told on many occasion by many people, it was Kyab Je Trijang Dorje Chang Rinpoche who told his students never to talk badly about the Dalai Lama no matter what would happen. So it's quite obvious that one of the greatest Dorje Shugden gurus that have ever lived, one who composed and taught works on Dorje Shugden that are still in use until this very day, thought of the Dalai Lama as Avalokiteshvara.

Well said AshRao and even Dorje Shugden himself in trance have never ever said anything against the Dalai Lama or that Dalai Lama is fake/evil etc. The advice some have heard is in fact be neutral, keep on doing our practice and focus on bringing Dorje SHugden to others and this will help preserve the lineage.

As for the CTA who is horribly bad in politics and totally corrupt, they should have taken the opportunity to be friends with high Shugden Lamas who have been going to CHina and has some kind of influence, who may be able to help them negotiate with China. Maybe by now, there would have been real progress that HH the Dalai Lama can return to Tibet.

Look at Amchok Rinpoche... he seems pretty happy being back in Tibet!

Amchok Rinpoche (seated with glasses) in a recent photo taken in Tibet. He has clearly been unaffected by his defection back to Tibet. How come there were no calls for him as a traitor? Surely as the Dalai Lama’s personal biographer, he would be most effective in his job by being next to the Dalai Lama. The Tibetan leadership must be very embarrassed by his defection because they have not issued statements announcing that he betrayed the Dalai Lama and labelling him a traitor. From: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-double-standards-of-dharamsala/