Lhamo Dondrub

[psylotripitaka]

Lhamo Dondrub (the proper name of the false Dalai Lama) has abandoned his lineage Gurus, contradicts the Dharma and his vows and commitments, and is therefore not a valid teacher or holder of lineage. I understand where some of you are coming from trying to keep pure view, but the actions of Lhamo Dondrub are so non-Buddhist that it is completely inappropriate not only to dare give him a title earned only by true Masters who've worked their ass off in meditation - Mahasiddha - but to even rely upon such a degenerate person for one's spiritual growth. Have you read the Lamrim teachings about the disadvantages of improper actions towards a valid Guru? If it is detrimental to one's spiritual development to closely associate with people who speak ill of one's Guru's or spiritual life, it is certainly detrimental to one's spiritual development to rely upon someone who acts as Lhamo Dondrub. To put him in the same category as actual Mahasiddha's such as Saraha, Tilopa, Naropa, Milarepa, Padmasambhava, Gyelwa Ensapa and so on is completely inappropriate and ridiculous.

If you're gonna have this view, keep it to yourself, don't propagate it publicly. What is of paramount importance on this website is NOT to promote Lhamo Dondrub, but to invalidate his ban. It does not promote this aim to also promote him as a valid Teacher.

Bottom line - Lhamo Dondrub abandoned his lineage Gurus, disparages them publicly, has engaged in an aggressive campaign to destroy the precious Gelug lineage, and encouraged a cultural revolution-style violence towards Buddhist practitioners. Those who continue to rely upon him and support his actions should be ashamed of themselves.

[Blueupali]

I am on the same page that the only way to practice is secretly about the DL being a Buddha--- at a least for me, because it falls into the category of seeing everyone as a Buddha, which is an inner view, not something we advertise.
  By actions, the Dalai Lama is not a qualified spiritual guide; I understand some people feel the need to express the inner view out loud that anyone could be a Buddha and that they are practicing this way so people don't hurt them.   I do understand that....
  But yeah, I think the Dalai Lama is just a political guy who is wearing burgundy, and making Buddhism look bad, to be honest....

[psylotripitaka]

I've cut and paste this particular reply of mine from the 'Mahasiddha' thread specifically to outline a question, and though the question is posed to Big Uncle, it is really my question to anyone here who considers the Dalai Lama to be one of their Teachers. From a certain point of view, everyone is our Teacher yes, but that is not what I mean. I mean it in the traditional sense of a Guru-disciple relationship, and I am sharing these points and genuine questions because I am seriously baffled why someone would maintain such a relationship. I'm not trying to have an angry debate or anger people, just an honest dialogue. I've highlighted the main question below. Thank you for your time:

The Posting
"Big Uncle, I hear what you are saying, but I put myself in their position, then consider the holy Dharma, and if any of my Lamas were doing as Lhamo Dondrub, I would:

1) Not at all be dismayed by people telling the truth about my Teacher
2) I would immediately recognize how harmful it is to my spiritual life to rely on such a person, immediately distance myself, and seek out a Lama who possesses the qualifications outlined in the Lamrim and Lama Chopa commentaries.

After everything he's done, that people cannot acknowledge the fact that according to the holy Dharma itself Lhamo Dondrub is not a valid lineage holder is stunning, and is frankly an indication that they do not understand the meaning of lineage or value the necessity of receiving a clean lineage transmission as the very source of attaining authentic realizations.

It is an indisputable fact that your Dalai Lama has disparaged and abandoned his lineage Gurus. A 'clean' or 'pure' lineage transmission means the Teacher absolutely loves their lineage Gurus and always pay deep respect to them. Through such a pure hearted bond the disciple is able to be a vessel for the blessings of enlightened lineage to flow through them to the audience, and so the audience can connect to lineage in their own mind. The purpose of telling this truth here is to strike some common sense so that people will consider its import and find a qualified teacher. You may not see what I'm saying, but there is a possibility that someone will and so take action to find another Teacher in order to gain realizations.

We value having a qualified Teacher if we genuinely value the attainment of authentic realizations. If we do not value the importance of relying on a qualified Lama, this reflects that we do not value the importance of attaining authentic realizations. So the question then becomes, for what reason would a person continue to rely upon an invalid Teacher that is trying to destroy the very lineage one is trying to realize?

Having considered these indisputable points, if you really are interested in attaining genuine realizations, I am asking you sincerely to consider and possibly share with us what your reason is for maintaining Lhamo Dondrub as your Teacher?"

[Blueupali]

Okay, so in response, I would say I definitely don't take the DL in a guru-disciple relationship way at all, and never did.  I understand too, the very good point, that if a teacher stops relying on his lineage then it doesn't make sense to follow him, because a valid teacher doesn't work that way. 
  The issue though, from my perspective, and I feel compassionate and sorrowful that this is happening in our world on such a large scale, is that people are being mistaught the tantra by the DL.  So, this whole thing where he is giving tons of people the initiations of Kalachakra and then going on to tell them to stay away from Shugden practitioners, and then people say, oh he is just being wrathful with his compassion, the problem is that they didn't yet become advanced enough practitioners in most cases to even vaguely observe the 'guru' the right way, and so started relying on a not so valid guru. 
  It is okay, if you think you made a mistake, to find a teacher you think is valid and ask for advice on how to handle this sort of thing.  (Actually, the valid gurus will probably tell you that you don't have to keep samaya with someone who isn't able to give it or something.... or they will help you in some other way, depends on the guru).  It is really a mistake for the DL students to run around the world thinking they are high practitioners; a lot of people can take tantric vows in various lineages but we know just because we got this vow doesn't automatically make us qualified.
  In Tibet, before the time of Atisha, there was a lot of misuse of tantra, but of course it would be hard for one person to use it worldwide back then.
  I think that people are mixed up because if they thought the DL was a Buddha because everybody said so, and they read a book and he seemed nice, even if the thought passed through their head, and they went and took Highest yoga vows, well, I think they didn't really get a chance to examine the guru, or frankly, at least in recent years, they would have known better to take it in the first place. 
  I myself cannot give anyone tantric samaya, as I don't happen to be qualified.  So if I said I could, and I couldn't (may I never do such a henious act) then of course, a valid teacher would just tell you you know that person can't give samaya.  So, please, understand that this would hold true, anytime the person isn't qualified.

[psylotripitaka]

Thanks Blueupali but I'm specifically interested in hearing a reasonable answer from someone who still holds him as their Teacher.

Was my logic unclear? It seems a simple conclusive question when you follow the logic:


  'for what reason would a person continue to rely upon an invalid Teacher that is trying to destroy the very lineage one is trying to realize?'

I've already established that 'Because I want to achieve realizations' is not a valid answer. So what is the reason Big Uncle, Admin, ...?

[psylotripitaka]

 'Because I believe he is an emanation of Chenrezig' is also not a valid answer because this "emanation" has done many things that according to the conventions of Dharma disqualifies one's qualifications as a Buddhist and a Teacher.

Big Uncle asked my intention for initiating this dialogue. It is like this - the Panchen Lama wrote a text to clarify how not to mistake an introduction to the conventional nature of mind for an introduction to the ultimate nature of mind. His reason was that if we believe the vacuity that is the mere absence of form is the ultimate nature of mind, we will not be able to achieve permanent liberation from samsara, and those who teach such a false instruction must be refuted to prevent this disastrous result.

Likewise, though I am nothing like the Panchen Lama, it is not difficult to follow the logic that concludes that those who rely upon the Dalai Lama as the Guru will likewise be prevented from achieving permanent liberation, because such an attainment depends on lineage blessings from a valid holder of lineage. Therefore, my intention is compassion, and it is established through gentle dialogue, rather than being forced on anyone through persecution. You are free to keep him as a teacher, but you will not be able to achieve authentic realizations for reasons already explained.

We have a great responsibility to ourself and others to remove the obstructions that prevent our progress. If we don't genuinely appreciate the horrible predicament we're in, our interest and energy for achieving authentic realizations will be weak or absent altogether, and so we won't really care if a Teacher is qualified or not. How unfortunate that would be.

Just because something makes us feel uncomfortable doesn't mean it isn't true.

[psylotripitaka]

I find it peculiar that every time I've ever asked students of the DL a question such as this, they always elect to avoid the discussion.

[grandmapele]

psylotripitaka, even as I agree with you on your facts, I don't think I can condemn the dalai Lama as I would be put in a bad position if I were to condemn a high lama. In fact, i might just land in hell for that. So, this ban has put every practicing Buddhist in a spot. One the one hand, we feel that the actions of the Dalai Lama is not right, on the other hand, who are we to condemn him?

But, through all these, on a secular level, I can say that the CTA is not right in the methods they employ to enforce the ban. They are killing off their own people, the very people they are sworn to protect. The very people who are the reason for their being there. The world of politics is very murky indeed, too murky for a simple-minded person like me.

[Blueupali]

Grandmapele,
  You would not land in hell for speaking against a real high lama, who could save you due to the karma you create with him by saying something.  You also would not go to hell for speaking against a false high lama, such as the DL.  This is an example of something that was misused a lot in Tibet, that if we speak against a holy being we would go right to hell when we die.  It is a way of silencing people.  You can take any of Buddha's 84,000 teachings out of context, or make one part seem like the only important thing, if you are a minister to the court, the monarch, etc., so that you can keep everybody silent.
  It is time to get over the dogma.  And no, I'm sorry, but I don't think you do see the logic, with all due respect, or you would not say you cannot speak against a "high Lama." 

[psylotripitaka]

Grandmapele,

I hear what you're saying, but the bottom line still remains:

for what reason would a person continue to rely upon an invalid Teacher that is trying to destroy the very lineage one is trying to realize?

I pray to the 3 Jewels daily, and he is not amongst them. I'm not sure if it is public yet so I won't say specifically, but not only is he not a valid Dharma Teacher, he is not even qualified to continue wearing the robes or call himself a monk.

He has been given a very long time to save face and still be able to benefit many people through Dharma teaching, but he has elected the path of total corruption, and so he must be called out. And my reason for discussing him being an invalid Teacher is out of concern for those people that have a genuine interest in achieving realizations, because they will not be able to do so by relying on someone who is trying to destroy the lineage he is transmitting. Forget about suppression of Dorje Shugden practitioners, the mere fact he has abandoned and disparaged his own lineage Gurus immediate disqualifies his credentials. Every lineage Guru has deeply loved and respected their Gurus. So why on earth would someone who has their faculties, logic, and common sense continue to consider him a teacher. That is simply foolish.

[Blueupali]

  I do understand this would be more confusing, except that I guess since I was Kagyu first, and since I learned that the Dalai Lamas of Tibet sometimes acted against Karmapa (like he did this life) and since I have never had any samaya with the DL, then I just don't take his opinion seriously.  Since the Dalai Lamas of Tibet sometimes did things like go to war against Kagyus, slaying their monks, I wasn't too convinced, really that we could have found an enlightened emanation of the DL in this realm--- because he sounds like a monarch and a fraud.
  The Karmapa he picked, wasn't a Karmapa according to Shamar Rinpoche.  And DL wasn't supposed to pick that; a lot of the Kagyus that follow the DL side of the Kagyus, used to say that Shamar Rinpoche was a demon (there are several videos of Shamar Rinpoche's rainbow lights at his cremation ceremony).  So, people were running around saying oh that guy doesn't agree with the DL so he's a demon.  I just thought they were nuts.  But anyway, then I happened to notice a lot of people say that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, and that Geshe Kelsang Gyastso is a demon.  These are people who run around trying to force me to say the Dalai Lama is a Buddha Chenresig.  They will almost beat us over the head with a frying pan trying to make us say the DL is a Buddha.  Anyone who he disfavors, becomes a demon.  I am just writing and explaining this so people will start to think, and investigate, rather than listening to dogma from feudal Tibet.