Just because some Lamas don't is that valid reason others shouldn't?

[dsdisciple]

Thank you Mana for posting another interesting question...

I love that about this forum we get to open our minds to other points of view without the emotional points of view on both sides of the debate.

It does appear that the results of practice...by lamas for or against Shugden practice clearly show the attainments from their practice are achievable with Lamas on both sides reincarnating back to continue their dharma works.

In previous lifetimes some Lama's were shugden practitioners and in this current lifetime are not and still show the attainments of their practices.

Then logic would indicate that the teachings of a Buddha in whatever form are relevant and available for us to practice depending on our individual karma and merit we have to support our dharma practice.

So the real issue looking deeper is to maintain our samaya with our Gurus / Lama's / Lineage teachers irregardless of where we may sit in the debate.

If we say that the buddha is wrong how can we be right??? Doesn't make sense...how can we aspire to achieving those qualities in our daily practice if we cannot hold our dharma vows to our own Lama's.

[pgdharma]

Dear Dharmaspace,

Yes - this is what I find interesting. The Fifth Dalai Lama condemned Dorje Shugden at first, then he realised the error of his ways and recognised him as an enlightened protector. Thus if the 14th Dalai Lama is following the Great Fifth and has a particularly strong connection with him, as the 14th Dalai Lama has often said before, then perhaps he will do the same and one day tell the world that he was wrong. After all, he told the world that he was wrong to practice Dorje Shugden before. if he was wrong before, he can be wrong again!

Well it sounds logical. The 14th Dalai Lama can be wrong. When the time is right, he will say he is wrong and maybe he will compose a praise to Dorje Shugden and recognized him as an enlightened protector. History does repeat itself sometimes

[beggar]

The Dalai lama's havent been lineage holders so whether they practise or not doesnt directly affect students of lineage holders.

This is a good point that you raise, Zach. This is one of the core points of this debate.

Whether a practice is "valid" or correct or not is largely dependent on your lineage and what your teachers advise you to practice. You have chosen your teacher as your teacher for a reason and after much checking, validation and confirmation that this person can give you the practices that you need and which can bring you to enlightenment. (If not, why have you chosen this person to be your Guru to lead you to enlightenment?). If you have checked, and you have accepted this person to be able to bring you to Enlightenment, then it follows that you should also have faith that this person will give you advice that is correct and beneficial to you.

So if your Lama has received the Shugden practice (or whichever practice, for that matter), from his Guru through an unbroken lineage of practices that can be traced all the way back to beings that are widely acknowledged as enlightened beings (in this case, Manjushri), then you trust that this practice is CORRECT, valid and right for you. Then, whatever another Lama says (no matter how high he is in name), it should not affect your practice because your lineage is not with him; your lineage and samaya is with YOUR OWN GURU.

In this case, a person receiving Shugden practice from a teacher who has received this lineage himself through an unbroken lineage of highly attained beings is doing the RIGHT PRACTICE. On the other hand, for example, it may not be such a "right" practice for someone else, of another lineage, who has already been given advice, teachings and practices from his own Guru to follow. Of course, it is not that Shugden practice is bad, but perhaps in this case, this person has been prescribed pujas for him by his lama that are more helpful to him, at that time.

There are many factors to consider. You cannot judge a practice in such a simplistic manner. The element of lineage and teacher-student relationship are very crucial factors to consider also.

[shugdenpromoter]

You know what, I can't give a damm what other lamas asked me to do or NOT to do. The most important to me is WHAT MY OWN LAMA ask me to do. Therefore, if my own lama gives me a Shugden practice, I will stick to it till I die. Even if he/she is not here with me anymore.

If we do not follow what our Lama has given us, then why do we even have a lama or guru?

[Ensapa]

Personally, one should trust his own teacher and their own lineage teachers, but more importantly is to trust their own teacher directly and any advice from their own teacher is more precious than anything else in the world. A teacher that thinks of thousands of methods to help their own students to transform and lead a better life and be a better Buddhist has much much more authority to their students, as opposed to a high ranking teacher who makes proclamations from afar, but who has never had any direct contact with any student. Why? because the high ranking teacher whom the students did you take refuge to has no direct connection and did not work specifically for the benefit of those students but only gave teachings in general. And general teachings may soothe the mind, but they are hardly ever helpful in the actual practice of facing oneself and discarding the parts of us which are incorrect.

A real Guru will scold, threaten, tease and press the buttons of his students and subject them to mental, emotional or very rarely, physical suffering so that the students can actually wake up and go to the next level with their Dharma practice. Why would people even consider lamas with big names but cannot give them direct teachings....? because if they follow from a distance they dont need to be challenged to be improved and they are contend to just be at peace with themselves, but not anyone else. So which type of student would you want to be?

[Gabby Potter]

It is definitely not a valid reason to not practise Lord Dorje Shugden's practise, it's not compulsory to do His practise but please do not put His sacred practise down, you have no idea how many people He has helped and how many lives He has saved due to His compassion. If people were to put it this way, why not all of us become monks and nuns since we are following some Lama's footsteps right? People just do not make sense, it's not compulsory to do Lord Dorje Shugden's practise, so please do not say all kinds of nasty things and try to defame His sacred practise and lineage, for your information, it's very bad karma.

[angelica]

Dalai Lama is not the head of Gelugpa. Does he has the right to ban the Dorje Shugden practice? We don't go into other people house and  tell those people what they can do and what they can't. 

We will follow the practice given by our guru. Or guru is our guide to enlightenment. Or guru will know what is best for us. Guru will not give us a practice that make us suffer more and remain in samsara. If we don't do anything,  we already confirm to b in samsara,  why need to practice to confirm our place in samsara?  Isn't it a waste of time.

Different lama do different practice. Therefore, students/disciples should stick to 1 Lama and 1 center. So that we will not be confused with the different teachings.

Dalai Lama please lift the ban to allow us do the practice of our choice, Dorje Shugden, the protector of our era.