The power of the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden

[DharmaDefender]

So same guy who was telling me his theory about why Nechung chose Duldzin also told me that it was necessary for the 5th Dalai Lama to attempt to kill Dorje Shugden through the fire pujas, in order for both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden to show their power.

Before resorting to the Mindrolling Lama to get rid of Dorje Shugden, the 5th Dalai Lama wouldve obviously done the fire pujas himself, without success. But his ability to put Dorje Shugden on the ladle to tip him into the fire would reflect the Dalai Lamas power to put a being there.

Then when Dorje Shugden would escape off the Mindrolling Lamas ladle, that reflected Dorje Shugdens power and enlightenment to escape the ladle, because he didnt have the karma to be killed. It was also to stop the Mindrolling Lama from committing an act of very heavy negative karma - attempting to draw blood from a Buddha.

The entire process of fire pujas was therefore orchestrated to demonstrate the power of the Dalai Lama (to cement his position as the king of Tibet) and the power of Dorje Shugden (for us to reflect on his enlightened nature and cement his position as the supreme Dharma Protector). If Im not wrong, one of the scriptures (think its Trijang Rinpoches writings on Dorje Shugden) mentions this too. Does anyone know?

[Big Uncle]

Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche wrote it in such a way that the acts of attempted killing of Dorje Shugden via the fire pujas were just acts to highlight the greatness of Dorje Shugden. This is because obviously Dorje Shugden was not killed in the fire pujas and that shows that Dorje Shugden is an attained being and cannot be overcome by a simple fire puja. Otherwise, we would be praying to a dead protector and who is that being that is taking trance of the Dorje Shugden oracles today and giving such accurate and astounding prophecies and not to mention giving teachings, transmissions and so forth? The more one thinks, the greater Dorje Shugden is.

[ShugdenProtector]

Thanks Big Uncle for that explanation. It seems like we will never ever know what these Enlightened beings are up to hu? Everything is really an illusory play, what we think may not be what we see and what we see may not be what we think... something along those lines. The point is we should never be quick to judge or jump into conclusion.

It reminds me of the story about how Manjushri manifested as one of Buddha's disciples although already enlightened himself, to show example to people, and to also ask questions so that Buddha can teach and benefit others. Through such examples, it makes anything possible for the Buddhas to do and take on many forms, positive or negative ones to teach and benefit others. Sometimes the lesson have to appear wrong or bad but in the end it we learn something from it. Like in this case where you mentioned that "Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche wrote it in such a way that the acts of attempted killing of Dorje Shugden via the fire pujas were just acts to highlight the greatness of Dorje Shugden." Seems like the Dalai Lama requested for the fire puja to be done was for this very reason to show that Dorje Shugden is not a spirit and therefore could never be "subdued" through the fire puja. Otherwise, we would be saying that a mere spirit is more powerful than the high lama, Mindrolling Lamas who was doing the puja? And not to mentioned Dalai Lama, because the spirit could rock the whole potala and over turned his bowls of food when the Dalai Lama was having his meals? That would mean Dorje Shugden is astonishingly more powerful than the Buddhas? Which cannot be and makes no sense to me.

May the Dalai Lama lift the ban soon! May he manifest now to be in favour of human rights, compassion and allow Dorje Shugden practitioners equal standing and rights again without discrimination!

[SabS]

I agree with Big Uncle that the fire puja by Mindrolling Lama does show the enlightened power of Dorje Shugden. I feel that the 5th Dalai Lama had allowed all the activities leading to this fire puja in order to have Dorje Shugden's indestructible nature be the prove to everyone, of his enlightened nature. One thing that just came to mind and I wonder if anyone could help to answer...why did Nechung advised for the Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's Upper house to be destroyed/razed and all traces to be wipe out? I wonder what purpose does that serve? Is it to show that as Dorje Shugden, he is a Protector to everyone without the impression of only being that of the Upper House? A bit of a trivia but would be interesting to know.

[grandmapele]

dorje Shugden is no more powerful than the Buddha. He could only rock the Potala and spill the Dalai Lama's food. The Dalai Lama is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara but in this form as Dalai Lama, he is subject to the laws of this realm which is that the body will have to age and pass, though the mind remains intact. As such, Dorje Shugden could create disturbances but not harm the Dalai Lama.

Moreover, as an enlightened Buddha, Dorje Shugden will not harm anyone. How can a Buddha harm anyone?

The 5th Dalai Lama ordered the fire puja to show and convince the lay people and detractors of Dorje Shugden that Dorje Shugden is not a spirit and cannot be overcome with a fire puja. Even Lord Setrap and the Dakinis 'came to his aid' during the pujas. So, none of the fire pujas could overcome him, proving that he is a Buddha.

So, we should have faith and put our trust in Dorje Shugden.

[Harold Musetescu]

Hello Grandmapele

"How can the Buddha harm someone"?

Please remember the tale of the Buddha when he was in a previous life the Captain of a ship. He had to personally kill the pirate that was boarding his ship to kill all his passengers. The Buddha engaged in what is called "The Rite of Transference, The Supreme Pacification Ritual".

Even a Buddha will kill to stop a person from engaging in severe acts of "Black Karma".

[Tenzin Malgyur]

Thank you Big Uncle for the explanation based on Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings. It is most uplifting to know that the lineage of Protector that we are relying on came through highly attained beings and not merely hearsay. The lesson learnt here is that Buddhas manifest in so many ways to reach out and teach to the many levels of understanding of beings.
Agreed with you that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Buddha from the fact that he is gave accurate prophecies and teachings through the stringently selected oracle.

[DharmaDefender]

One thing that just came to mind and I wonder if anyone could help to answer...why did Nechung advised for the Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's Upper house to be destroyed/razed and all traces to be wipe out? I wonder what purpose does that serve? Is it to show that as Dorje Shugden, he is a Protector to everyone without the impression of only being that of the Upper House? A bit of a trivia but would be interesting to know.

Havent got an answer to your question but Ive heard something on the grapevine that may be a little related though it takes place in a different time. Theres a theory going about that the present Nechung Oracle isnt really taking trance of anything at all. Thats why he could prescribe the wrong medication to the 13th Dalai Lama because it was the oracle speaking, and not the deity.

Theory goes that the present Oracle is a puppet of the Tibetan leadership, doing their bidding and giving whatever proclamations they want him to. And if things go wrong, the Tibetan leadership have the perfect scapegoat in Nechung, an unseen and formless being. Whatre you going to do with someone like that if they get it wrong, hold them at Her Majesty's pleasure? And how can the Oracle be held at fault? Hes protected by the argument that hes just channelling a deity, and therefore hes blameless in any fiasco. Its not his fault what the deity says. Perfect crime, really.

Of course that doesnt answer why the Dalai Lama would sit in the main cathedral and go through the faff of a trance if theres no deity entering. Surely the Dalai Lama could see this.

[James Bond]

This post was so logical and made so much sense. Such a good way to showcase both the Dalai Lamas and Dorje Shugdens powers in one event. However its a shame that the Dalai Lama's intentions of trying to get rid of Dorje Shugden were wrong. But yet Dorje Shugden, although knowing that he is trying to be killed, still shows compassion by not allowing the Dalai Lama to do so otherwise the negative karma would be tremendous. This was a very good example of compassion from Dorje Shugden despite him being a wrathful protector.

[pgdharma]

Yes indeed it makes so much sense. Enlightened beings manifest and work in so many ways which we ordinary beings sometimes find it hard to comprehend.

The 5th Dalai Lama had clairvoyant and all along knew that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit yet he appointed Mindrolling Lama who is the most skillful lamas in overcoming spirits to exorcise Dorje Shugden. Definitely Dorje Shugden could not be eliminated as he is an enlightened dharma protector, thus proving the special qualities of Dorje Shugden.

May the 14th Dalai Lama recognize Dorje Shugden as an enlightened dharma protector and lift the ban soon.

[SabS]

@ DharmaDefender, yes I had read articles on how some proclaimed the current Nechung Oracle may not have been taking trance of Nechung but instead it's the vengeful spirit of Nyatrul, a wronged innocent monk killed by the Administrators of the Dalai Lama. Isn't it ironic that the Administrators could be obeying the very being that they had killed?

But during the times of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, Nechung was the one who came to him to keep his promise to arise as the Protector of Lama Tsongkapa's precious teachings. It was Nechung who had created the conditions for TDG to arise as Dorje Shugden. So it should be the same Nechung who ordered his Upper House destroy completely. Unless of course he had already gain enlightenment upon Dorje Shugden taking his role as a Protector. Oh dear more questions.

[Celia]

Reading this thread reminded me of one of the questions I had asked when I was first told of the events following the murder of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. I had trouble reconciling how the 5th Dalai Lama could;

(i) ignore a fundamental Buddhist logic/teaching that someone with high realisations and attainments cannot fall back and be an evil spirit immediately without rhyme or reason; and
(ii) just jumped into his ministers’ “it-is-an-evil-spirit” bandwagon.

Not only did the 5th Dalai Lama joined the bandwagon, He made a huge “show” out of it (with fire pujas and all) plus He got influential people (like Mindrolling Lama) to be involved too. 

It was undisputed and accepted that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen (a devoted student of His Holiness the 4th Panchen Lama - Panchen Losang Chokyi Gyeltsen) was very saintly and had hundreds of visions of the tutelary deities, Buddhas, Saints, Yidams as well as Dharma protectors. He is even said to have exhibited many supernatural abilities. In fact, it was exactly because of His high realisations and attainments which led to many supporting and following Him that resulted in the ministers of the 5th Dalai Lama identifying Him as a rival to the 5th Dalai Lama and proceeded to eliminate Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

So, if one is to follow the teachings, it didn’t seem logical that He can be accepted to be so realised and then immediately upon death be relegated to an evil spirit.

Thankfully, my confusion was clarified and the explanation given to me was similar to what was shared by DharmaDefender and Big Uncle. Not only did it help clear things for me, it was also a bonus to have such explanation backed up by highly attained beings like Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.