Author Topic: Looking forward to HHDL lifting the ban...  (Read 11604 times)

dsiluvu

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Re: Looking forward to HHDL lifting the ban...
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2012, 11:32:48 AM »
Hmmm... I usually do not doubt HHDL except in the case of DS.  It’s hard to say or trust whether he really had a dream, especially after he said DS is a spirit, which is a lie.


If you usually don't doubt His Holiness , then why would you doubt him now? What makes you so great and clever that you are able to distinguish whether the Dalai Lama "really had a dream" or what he said is really "a lie" as you have so boldly proclaimed?

Why do you not doubt him in everything else but you doubt him in this? If you doubt this, then you could doubt everything else he has said ... couldn't you? What makes you the judge of whether the Dalai Lama is telling the truth or not? Wouldn't it be better to accept everything he says. Why would he lie to you anyway ? He has vows against that, d'oh!



Dear Karla... I think for myself I doubt what His Holiness says simply because all the evidence is not there and as michaela has clearly stated quite clearly the reasons... it is illogical based on the several events one of them is the puja by high Nyingma Lamas that were done on Dorje Shugden.

Firstly if Dorje Shugden was a demon then why was he not been subdue then? This actually shows us that either
1) He is more powerful then the Buddhas - how can this be. Thought Buddhas were Enlightened
2) The Nyingma Lamas are weak/inferior
3) Dorje Shugden is obviously not a demon hence cannot be subdued

There is doubt in what His Holiness says because He has mentioned that it is GOOD TO QUESTION before you accept any teachings/advice. In fact His Holiness is encouraging this and making it sound like 50 stanzas of guru devotion needs to even be rewritten. Hence there is not doubt, simply logical to question.

Anyway, whether the original reasons for certain interpretations were due to individual students, other considerations or plain misunderstanding, it may prove necessary for later individuals to clarify things. Rectifying, clarifying and the like are generally accepted approaches for the learned and completely in step with the correct general approach to the teachings. This is way to proceed and help to guard against decline. ~ HH The 14th Dalai Lama
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2225.msg31365#msg31365
 

michaela

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Re: Looking forward to HHDL lifting the ban...
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2012, 02:30:43 PM »

Investigating something can take a very long time and it can take a lot of effort. It takes real passion to investigate something to the bone and be unbiased while at it. And that is what some of us in this forum have and we are carrying out Shakyamuni's and Dalai Lama's exhortation to investigate everything before believing :) so we are creating the causes for HHDL's long life by following his instructions!

I like what you said Ensapa  ;D.  And Karla, if you do take time to investigate the matter at hand and not just choose to take side, your faith will be so much stronger in both HHDL and DS.   

Ensapa

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Re: Looking forward to HHDL lifting the ban...
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2012, 05:18:24 AM »

If you usually don't doubt His Holiness , then why would you doubt him now? What makes you so great and clever that you are able to distinguish whether the Dalai Lama "really had a dream" or what he said is really "a lie" as you have so boldly proclaimed?

Why do you not doubt him in everything else but you doubt him in this? If you doubt this, then you could doubt everything else he has said ... couldn't you? What makes you the judge of whether the Dalai Lama is telling the truth or not? Wouldn't it be better to accept everything he says. Why would he lie to you anyway ? He has vows against that, d'oh!

It was HHDL who gave us permission to doubt  him in some things that we find, dubious.

Quote

I am not someone who tries to claim that I should be counted amongst the ranks of the scholarly or accomplished beings. I do however feel that my approach to this issue (i.e. differing on one point, whilst retaining respect for the person in question) is completely in line with how such great beings from the past have acted. I often reflect upon these words:

Vasubhandu, who had the welfare of beings at heart, 
Due to his personal leaning,
Explained (the Prajnaparamita /Abhisamayalankara),
In terms of the internal (mental) existence of all things.

He who was counted amongst the ranks of the aryas,
And was known as "freedom'.
Seeing that what (Vasubhandu) had done was not how it should be,
He scrutinised with a "middle way" judgement.
 
Therefore, Arya Vimuktisena, whose teacher was Vasubhandu, saw that Vasubhandu's manner of explanation of the Abhisamayalankara had been more affected by his own personal bias towards a particular position than being a true reflection of the author's ultimate intent. He therefore composed a commentary refuting that view, displacing it with a Madhyamaka interpretation. Now was this a case of a corruption of the spiritual guide - disciple relationship on Arya Vimuktisena's part or of him showing disrespect for Vasubhandu? It was neither of these things.


So if HHDL has said that it's okay, you can respect your Guru in everything else but if he is weak in a certain subject or if we perceive that he has made a mistake, he just has make a mistake and there is nothing there is to it. It does not affect his faith. But seeing the circumstances HHDL has been through, it must have been very hard for him to keep a pure view of Reting Rinpoche amidst the allegations and "evidence' of his wrongdoings. HHDL has mentioned this in some of his biographies as Reting Rinpoche was extremely close to HHDL, almost like a father. How can any of us handle such instances? Perhaps, this methods is the way to handle cases where the Lama who is a highly qualified teacher actually manifests mistakes or weaknesses and we find it very hard to keep a pure view of him. For me there is no problem because my Lama is flawless in any way and the "mistakes" he makes are just a result of the jealousy of others and I will never, ever desert my Lama.

Positive Change

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Re: Looking forward to HHDL lifting the ban...
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2012, 05:36:14 PM »

Investigating something can take a very long time and it can take a lot of effort. It takes real passion to investigate something to the bone and be unbiased while at it. And that is what some of us in this forum have and we are carrying out Shakyamuni's and Dalai Lama's exhortation to investigate everything before believing :) so we are creating the causes for HHDL's long life by following his instructions!

I like what you said Ensapa  ;D.  And Karla, if you do take time to investigate the matter at hand and not just choose to take side, your faith will be so much stronger in both HHDL and DS.

I too like what has been said here. In fact Michaela, you have hit the nail on the head here... end result is that our "faith will be so much stronger in BOTH HHDL AND DORJE SHUGDEN".

You should do everything your guru tells you to do, even if it seems strange, right? Wrong. According to His Holiness the Dalai Lama every student is responsible for checking the guru’s instructions against reason and Dharma. The rationalizations that many students tell themselves in the face of odd guru behaviours – "It must be a teaching" or "It’s crazy wisdom that you can’t question" or "It’s a test" - serve only to damage students who don’t understand that even powerful teachers have personalities that sometimes have blind spots and make mistakes. An interesting article below that highlights this topic clearly...

I have highlighted some key points that blows my mind!


Questioning the Advice of the Guru
- by H.H. the XIV. Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso

H.H. the Dalai Lama speaks strongly on this topic in this excerpt adapted from The Path to Enlightenment.

The offering of practice means always to live by the teachings of one’s guru. But what happens when the guru gives us advice that we do not wish to follow or that contradicts Dharma and reason? The yardstick must always be logical reasoning and Dharma reason. Any advice that contradicts these is to be rejected. This was said by Buddha himself. If one doubts the validity of what is being said, one should gently push the point and clear all doubts. This task becomes somewhat more sensitive in Highest Tantra, where total surrender to the guru is a prerequisite; but even here this surrender must be made only in a particular sense. If the guru points to the east and tells you to go west, there is little alternative for the student but to make a complaint. This should be done with respect and humility, however, for to show any negativity towards a teacher is not a noble way of repaying his or her kindness.

Perception of faults in the guru should not cause us to feel disrespect, for by demonstrating faults to us the guru is actually showing us what we should abandon. At least, this is the most useful attitude for us to take. An important point here is that the disciple must have a spirit of sincere inquiry and must have clear, rather than blind, devotion.

It is frequently said that the essence of the training in guru yoga is to cultivate the art of seeing everything the guru does as perfect. Personally I myself do not like this to be taken too far. Often we see written in the scriptures, Every action seen as perfect. However, this phrase must be seen in the light of Buddha Shakyamuni’s own words: Accept my teachings only after examining them as an analyst buys gold. Accept nothing out of mere faith in me. The problem with the practice of seeing everything the guru does as perfect is that it very easily turns to poison for both the guru and the disciple. Therefore, whenever I teach this practice, I always advocate that the tradition of every action seen as perfect not be stressed. Should the guru manifest unDharmic qualities or give teachings contradicting Dharma, the instruction on seeing the spiritual master as perfect must give way to reason and Dharma wisdom.

Take myself, for example. Because many of the previous Dalai Lamas were great sages and I am said to be their reincarnation, and also because in this lifetime I give frequent religious discourses, many people place much faith in me, and in their guru yoga practice they visualize me as being a Buddha - I am also regarded by these people as their secular leader. Therefore, this teaching of every action seen as perfect can easily become poison for me in my relationship with my people and in my effective administration. I could think to myself, They all see me as a buddha, and therefore will accept anything I tell them. Too much faith and imputed purity of perception can quite easily turn things rotten. I always recommend that the teaching on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should not be stressed in the lives of ordinary practitioners. It would be an unfortunate affair if the Buddhadharma, which is established by profound reasoning, were to have to take second place to it.

Perhaps you will think: The Dalai Lama has not read the Lam Rim scriptures. He does not know that there is no practice of Dharma without the guru. I am not being disrespectful of the Lam Rim teachings. A student of the spiritual path should rely upon a teacher and should meditate on that teacher’s kindness and good qualities; but the teaching on seeing his or her actions as perfect can only be applied within the context of the Dharma as a whole and the rational approach to knowledge that it advocates. As the teachings on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect is borrowed from Highest Tantra and appears in the Lam Rim mainly to prepare the trainee for tantric practice, beginners must treat it with caution. As for spiritual teachers, if they misrepresent this precept of guru yoga in order to take advantage of naive disciples, their actions are like pouring the liquid fires of hell directly into their stomachs.

The disciple must always keep reason and knowledge of Dharma as principal guidelines. Without this approach it is difficult to digest one’s Dharma experiences. Make a thorough examination before accepting someone as a guru, and even then follow that teacher within the conventions of reason as presented by Buddha. The teachings on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should largely be left for the practice of Highest Tantra, wherein they take on a new meaning. One of the principal yogas in the tantric vehicle is to see the world as a mandala of great bliss and to see oneself and all others as Buddhas. Under these circumstances it becomes absurd to think that you and everyone else are Buddhas, but your guru is not!

Actually, the more respect one is given the more humble one should become, but sometimes this principle becomes reversed. A spiritual teacher must guard himself or herself carefully and should remember the words of Lama Drom Tonpa, Use respect shown to you as a cause for humility. This is the teacher’s responsibility. The student has the responsibility of using wisdom in his or her demonstration of faith and respect.

A problem is that we usually only observe those teachings that feed our delusions and ignore those that would overcome them. This leniency can easily lead to one’s downfall. This is why I say that the teaching on seeing all the guru’s actions as perfect can be a poison. Many sectarian problems in Tibet were born and nourished by it.

The First Dalai Lama wrote, The true spiritual master looks upon all living beings with thoughts of love and shows respect to teachers of all traditions alike. Such a one only harms delusion, the enemy within. The different traditions have arisen principally as branches of skillful methods for trainees of varying capacities. If we take an aspect of their teachings, such as the precept of all actions seen as perfect, and use it for sectarian purposes, how have we repaid the past masters for their kindness in giving and transmitting Dharma? Have we not disgraced them? If we misunderstand and mispractice their teachings, it will hardly please them. Similarly, it is meritorious for a lama to perform rituals or give initiations to benefit people, but if his or her motivation is only material benefit, that person would be better off going into business instead. Using the mask of Dharma to exploit people is a great harm.

We erect elaborate altars and make extensive pilgrimages, but better than these is to remember Buddha’s teachings: Never create any negative action; always create goodness; aim all practices at cultivating the mind. When our practice increases delusion, negativity and disturbed states of mind, we know that something is wrong.

It is sometimes said that a major cause of the decline of Buddhism in India eight hundred years ago was the practice of Vajrayana by unqualified people, and sectarianism caused by corruption within the Sangha. Anyone teaching Tibetan Buddhism should keep this in mind when they refer to the precept, every action of the guru is to be seen as perfect. This is an extremely dangerous teaching, particularly for beginners.

Karla

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Re: Looking forward to HHDL lifting the ban...
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2012, 04:02:54 PM »
I appreciate what you guys are saying. Question and question the guru. That's fine.
But there are some things that you just can't question or find the answer yourself. So you still need to rely on a teacher for that. I mean, can you tell if Dorje Shugden is a spirit or not yourself? Have you even met him in person? Perceived him directly? I don't think so.
So what you are saying is derived from what you are reading or hearing or what your teachers told you.
So what makes one teacher more correct than another? Why are other teachers more correct than the Dalai Lama? you respect him and you believe him, but you don't believe this part that he says? How judgemental and presumptuous.
So now if one of your teachers tells you now that Shakyamuni is a demon but Dalai Lama says it is a very good practice (of course), then who would you listen to? Why listen to one advice sometimes, and not another advice another time?

Ensapa

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Re: Looking forward to HHDL lifting the ban...
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2012, 07:26:47 AM »
I appreciate what you guys are saying. Question and question the guru. That's fine.
But there are some things that you just can't question or find the answer yourself. So you still need to rely on a teacher for that. I mean, can you tell if Dorje Shugden is a spirit or not yourself? Have you even met him in person? Perceived him directly? I don't think so.

Well dearie, there are lots of historical proof that he is not a spirit, and we can actually see him in actuality during trance sessions. From there we can actually see what is going on and observe for ourselves whether or not he is a spirit or an enlightened being, based on how the high lamas actually pay their respects to him instead of the other way round, and also from the Dharma talks that he gives during trance.

So what you are saying is derived from what you are reading or hearing or what your teachers told you.
So what makes one teacher more correct than another? Why are other teachers more correct than the Dalai Lama? you respect him and you believe him, but you don't believe this part that he says? How judgemental and presumptuous.

Our root Guru is more "correct" than the other Gurus, in retrospect. Why? because we have decided to take teachings from our root Guru, and have decided that this person has benefitted me the most in this life, which is why i take him or her as my root Guru. How can anyone else override the instructions of the root Gur if this is the case? If someone can, then the root Guru is no longer the root Guru and tantric percepts are breached.

So now if one of your teachers tells you now that Shakyamuni is a demon but Dalai Lama says it is a very good practice (of course), then who would you listen to? Why listen to one advice sometimes, and not another advice another time?
Guru devotion and samaya comes first before anything else. This is especially true if we have taken any sort of Tantric teachings or initiations. If the Guru is Buddha Vajradhara, whatever mistakes he makes is just the fault of our perceptions when he is actually pure in nature. That is AFTER we have checked him out that he complies with the 50 verses of Guru devotion and based on that, take this person as our teacher.

I love your reasonings and your style when you question. It is very intellectual. But unfortunately, my Guru is not the Dalai Lama and i dont think so I am qualified to be his student as I am too far away from him and I need lots of nurturing from my Guru in order to be able to learn and practice. And it is my root Guru who is kind enough to guide and nurture me through personally, not the Dalai Lama, so I will stick with my Guru all the way no matter what anyone says.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Looking forward to HHDL lifting the ban...
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2015, 04:45:35 PM »
Great comments are given by contributors to this post.  Very interesting to read why the Ban on Dorje Shugden should be lifted. 

The main reason is that it makes no sense for the ban in any direction of a debate.