Dalai Lama's Court Case Invalidated

[DSFriend]

Wisdom Being, you have a good point. Vajra wrath shown by tantric masters literally help the students purify a lot of their negative karma. Nowadays, lamas and teachers have to adopt different methods to help those students who are karmically connected to them. sometimes by just showing loving kindness is not enough. I am sure everyone of us have been shouted and yelled at by our parents, simply because we as children are just stubborn and we think we know better. Same with the tantric masters and lamas, they too have to adopt the "Vajra wrath". If a lama has to do this, think of what do they gain by shouting at you, obviously you won't like to be shouted at or being scolded, you may end up running or hiding away, or if you are a sponsor, you may stop sponsoring. So what do the lamas gain by displaying "Vajra wrath" at you??

This is totally out of compassion as wisdom being brought up. What else can it be? 

I don't see any other reasons for "vajra wrath" other than a person, acting selflessly,  free of the 8 worldly dharmas!

[thor]

The idea that the Dalai Lama is promoting the practice of Dorje Shugden is pure wishful thinking, there is no shred of evidence to support this view according to the conventions of society, according to conventional truth. Remember that  Je Tsongkhapa taught we must respect conventional truth if we are to be taken seriously by, and therefore benefit ordinary beings.  If it feels like the view promotes happiness and peace I suggest great caution because I don't see any valid basis for the view and minds generated without a valid basis, no matter how pleasant are ultimately deceptive and will produce suffering. To promote the view that the Dalai Lama is a reliable and qualified Buddhist teacher on the basis of his actions regarding Dorje Shugden is to promote a Buddism which also has no valid basis, as such it will ultimately perpetuate samsara and contradict the bodhisattva vow. Any benefit people receive from the Dalai lama is due to the purity of the teachings he repeats which come from his teachers. Please consider this carefully.

Yes that is true, the blessings of the Dalai Lama's teachings come through him from the lineage gurus. By him holding his commitments, vows, and maintaining pure samaya, then do the blessings spring forth during his teachings and initiations. Hence we can choose to view the Dalai Lama as  a pure monk, a Dharma practitioner, one who has fulfilled the above commitments and hence is able to bestow such blessings upon his followers. If he does that, does that preclude him from having the same blessings, bearing in mind his actions with regards to Dorje Shugden practitioners?

Dalai Lama either has blessings or he doesnt. It can't be conditional blessings in relation to whether he is giving a Kalachakra initiation or speaking out against Dorje Shugden. Otherwise when do we listen to our teacher, and when do we decide that the teacher is wrong? And what does that imply for the rest of the Buddhist world who hold him so sacred? This includes other lineage holders too! The implications are huge...

[Robert Thomas]

Dear Duldzin you are right that on the basis of pure view of the Dalai Lama and his giving correct teachings it is possible that people receive all the benefits of relying on a spiritual guide. However my point was that trying claim that the Dalai lamas ban on Dorje Shugden is the wrathful action and therefore in accordance with Dharma is wrong. His actions in this area completely contradict Buddhism and saying otherwise incurs the fault of not discriminating valid dharma teachings from false ones, one of the 5 qualifications necessary for a Mahayana disciple to make progress.

I hardly dare think of what has happened to people who have died without faith in thier teacher and the teachings due to the Dalai Lama's actions of destroying faith in Buddhist teachings and teachers. I know people who have died with anger and confusion due to the Dalai Lamas actions in destroying the reputation of Buddhist teachers. Considering this I think it is very clear that in no way should we excuse, far less praise his actions with respect to Shugden. They are not wise vajra actions but cruel and ignorant.

[Robert Thomas]

Dear Duldzin, I would also like to be very clear that the fact that people receive benefit and blessings from the Dalai Lama's Kalachakra etc is not a logical proof of the Dalai Lama's or any teachers purity. It shows that in dependence upon correct teachings and faithful disciples the Buddha's are able to bestow blessings and benefit. They can even do this through a statue or painting for similar reasons but it would be nonsense to try and infer anything regarding the samaya of such objects.

The view that a teacher must  be 100% infallible because people receive benefit from them in certain situations, like Kalachakra, is very dangerous because it destroys your ability to discriminate correctly. In this way we open the door to accept incorrect teachings and quickly destroy pure Buddhadharna. We will create an age of confusion like that which preceded Je Tsongkhapa. Perhaps worse...

[Robert Thomas]

It is wrong to say the Dalai Lama either has blessings or he doesn't. Such a statement implies inherent existence. Blessings depend on causes and conditions, one of which is a mind of faith in the disciple. Of course in general everyone recieves blessings whatever their mind, but for empowerments we need at least:

1. A correct basis - valid teaching & ritual
2. A mind of faith regarding the vajra master as Buddha

With these two conditions the Buddha's can function through anyone performing the function of vajra master. Or do you think all vajra masters have always been perfect?

If you try to say the Vajra Master must also be a pure and realised practitioner I would argue that there must have been many occaisions where this was not the case but nonetheless the disciples still recieved all the benefits.

[WisdomBeing]

It is wrong to say the Dalai Lama either has blessings or he doesn't. Such a statement implies inherent existence. Blessings depend on causes and conditions, one of which is a mind of faith in the disciple. Of course in general everyone recieves blessings whatever their mind, but for empowerments we need at least:

1. A correct basis - valid teaching & ritual
2. A mind of faith regarding the vajra master as Buddha

With these two conditions the Buddha's can function through anyone performing the function of vajra master. Or do you think all vajra masters have always been perfect?

If you try to say the Vajra Master must also be a pure and realised practitioner I would argue that there must have been many occaisions where this was not the case but nonetheless the disciples still recieved all the benefits.

Dear Robert

I'm just curious - do you believe that Buddhas can manifest as human beings? Do you believe that some Lamas are manifestations of Buddhas? Do you believe in Guru devotion as per the 50 stanzas of Guru Devotion? These are not rhetorical questions but I just want to know what your perspective is.

On my side, I do believe that if someone is our Guru, it is to our benefit to see our Guru as the Buddha himself and that if we see him as an ordinary person, we would get the blessings of an ordinary person but if we see him as a Buddha, we would receive the blessings of a Buddha.

I also believe that if we have a tantric master, we should see him as one with our Yidam and Protector, hence we should see him or her as enlightened.

[Robert Thomas]

Dear Wisdombeing, I agree all of the views you describe are correct and I also try to practice them.

With best wishes

Robert

[LosangKhyentse]

What a lovely debate between WisdomBeing and Robert Thomas. It's clear, concise, to the point, no personal agendas, and truly discussing to learn and share. I enjoy the forum so much this way. I learned from their learned debates here on this thread. Thank you to both of you.

tk

[kurava]

Yes, the whole point of discussion and sharing in the Forum is to listen to different views and keep an open mind.

What is acceptable to A may not be acceptable by B but that doesn’t mean it is absolutely wrong and B will go on a crusade to convince every one else to follow his view.

Similarly there may even be a third view, fourth view…so forth. We don’t have to agree or follow others’ views but we at least respect others’ right to have a different views from ours.

Cheers !

[Robert Thomas]

Dear Kurava,

I quite agree, each of us needs to find a view which provides us with the inner quiet necessary to practice. Even for one person, at different times they may need to hold different views.

All the best

Robert

[triesa]

Dear Kurava,

I quite agree, each of us needs to find a view which provides us with the inner quiet necessary to practice. Even for one person, at different times they may need to hold different views.

All the best

Robert

Dear Robert,

Yes, that is the beauty of acceptance of difference or conflicts but  still be in harmony. it sounds like a paradise, but
that is what I aspire to be, not everyone thinks the same as me and not everyone reacts the same as me. As much as I want others to understand and respect my views, I should do likewise. Like you said, as long as we find the inner peace within ourselves, we can accept more of others.

Cheers.

[Helena]

Now this is what the Forum is all about - presenting views in a way that does not disparage anyone and yet, everyone learns together despite the differences in views.

Thank you all for your very kind contribution in helping us all grow - within and without.