Do cloned animals have different mindstreams?

[WisdomBeing]

I was reading an article about cloned animals (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1335516/Cloned-meat-gets-ahead-Minister-rejects-ban-despite-health-animal-welfare-fears.html) and i was wondering - do cloned animals have their own mindstream different from the original they were cloned from?

Also, in test tube babies - how does the mind get attracted to go into the union between sperm and egg? cos i read before that the mind is attracted to the female organ or the male organ while they are joined and that's how the mind stream enters the new life.

[Helena]

Interesting question, WB.

I never thought about it, I must admit.

Hope someone can also help us with some answers.

I would really like to know as well.

[hope rainbow]

This is surely an interesting question.
All religions have questions about cloning.
I remember there was a movie about that, the movie was about people's clones being weird human creatures without a "soul"... Not sure what that means!

As far as I can apply common sense on the issue, here is how I would debate:
1. beings are of two types: a) sentient beings, b) enlightened beings
2. clones are either one or the other, since there is no other category (and they are not vegetal neither)
3. thus they experience pain and operate with five aggregates if they are sentient beings
4. and they are buddhas' emanations or buddhas if they are enlightened
5. therefore, to me, I do not see a reason why a clone is any different from another being in this sense: I do not see any reason why we sould consider clones with a different mind set than other beings.

And if I am wrong, maybe we should adjust our prayers like this:
"
may it be that all sentient beings AND CLONES have happiness and its causes,
may it be that all sentient beings AND CLONES become free from suffering and its causes,
etc..."

That does not make much sense, does it?

I'd like to read what others think of this topic

[Big Uncle]

That is an intriguing question and I believe that what WisdomBeing have mentioned is a normal method from which a being can take rebirth by the force of karma. Cloning have perhaps created a new method for beings to take rebirth. The attraction to the male and female organs is just a method but the real cause behind that is karma. So I think cloning have created new circumstances for beings to take rebirth under the same controlling factor, which is karma. Well, that is how I would see it.

[WisdomBeing]

That is an intriguing question and I believe that what WisdomBeing have mentioned is a normal method from which a being can take rebirth by the force of karma. Cloning have perhaps created a new method for beings to take rebirth. The attraction to the male and female organs is just a method but the real cause behind that is karma. So I think cloning have created new circumstances for beings to take rebirth under the same controlling factor, which is karma. Well, that is how I would see it.

Interesting, BigU.. i guess methods do evolve over time but you're right - the basis for everything is karma. Perhaps those who are 'born' as a result of cloning have the karma to be 'born' like that. Clones may prove the existence of different mindstreams because technically if someone is a clone of another, they should be identical to the other person/animal. However, if they are different in character despite exactly the same DNA make up and environment they are brought up in, then it shows that they have different mindstreams.

And HopeR - yes i believe all clones are still sentient beings, so they must be the continuation of a mindstream from somewhere.

[kurava]

A sentient being is a  psycho-physical composite. Before the advance of science into cloning technology, the body of a human is thought to be unique.

 While  physical properties of a living being can now be replicated, a person's mind remain unique and individualistic. As mentioned by many , this is due to the differences in experiences and past associations which an individual's mindstream had been  conditioned.

When a being comes into existence, via any mode of birth (from egg , womb, moisture etc )these imprints in a beings mental continuum will manifest as a unique personality with its own tendencies, likes and dislikes.Even enlightened beings have different dispositions although  they all have purified their karma to suffer.

[DSFriend]

so does that mean beings can take on the human form without going through the "route" as mentioned by wb?

and i wonder what's the karmic cause for beings to be reborn in human form via the various ways..

[kurava]

Dear DS Friend,
Things arise when the right causes and conditions are assembled. Before the advent of cloning technology & genetic engineering ,there was test tube technology producing babies.In future scientific research may yield other technology to perform the same function.
The main factor for coming into existence is still a being's karmic energy. Only difference is now there are more modes of rebirth to choose from depending upon one's karmic inclination.
Apparently, cloning etc have very high failure rates. So it looks like for now, the more natural union of parents is still the preferred conditions to take on a physical human form.

[DharmaDefender]

So what about cryonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics)? Possible or not?

Or do we create zombies?

[WisdomBeing]

So what about cryonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics)? Possible or not?

Or do we create zombies?

Dharma Defender,

Interesting question (oh i love this forum)! Hmmm if people are frozen but legally dead (what is the definition of legally dead anyway) - have their minds moved onto another rebirth, so their bodies, while preserved perfectly, have no life force after all, and would theoretically not be possible to resuscitate?

[DharmaDefender]

So what about cryonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics)? Possible or not?

Or do we create zombies?

Dharma Defender,

Interesting question (oh i love this forum)! Hmmm if people are frozen but legally dead (what is the definition of legally dead anyway) - have their minds moved onto another rebirth, so their bodies, while preserved perfectly, have no life force after all, and would theoretically not be possible to resuscitate?

I think legally dead is brain dead...but in cryonics, your body's technically in a suspended state of existence, so the brain technically isn't dead...or something like that.

That would be weird, old body but a young mind reentering...

[thor]

That is an intriguing question and I believe that what WisdomBeing have mentioned is a normal method from which a being can take rebirth by the force of karma. Cloning have perhaps created a new method for beings to take rebirth. The attraction to the male and female organs is just a method but the real cause behind that is karma. So I think cloning have created new circumstances for beings to take rebirth under the same controlling factor, which is karma. Well, that is how I would see it.

Logically speaking, clones should also have different mindstreams. The union of the female and male should not always be required. After all, there are beings born from heat, and also those born in the formless realms. In these cases, there should not be any union occuring...

[Klein]

I believe cloned animals are just like all sentient beings. If the animal is occupied by an Enlightened mind, then most likely the Enlightened mind can manifest in many other bodies. If the animal is occupied by an unenlightened mind, then this unenlightened mind can only exist in one body at a time.

[fruven]

Interesting topic of the mind of a clone.

Is the main reason behind cloning of animals is because we want more meat without guilt? Because it is cloned it doesn't matter the pain and suffering as it is not real, the producer can sell more meat without guilt?

In my view it doesn't matter how the animals or sentient beings come into being, as long as it has all the aggregates, can perceive, and respond, feel pains and happiness, then there is a mind residing in the physical form whether being in animals form or human form. Are we to say if we can successfully clone a human, in the future, then we can eat human eat?

[negra orquida]

There are a few types of cloning.  This includes:

Embryonic Cloning

    Scientists use two techniques for Embryonic Cloning. Artificial Embryo Twinning was the first form of biological cloning developed. This scientific procedure mimics the natural process of creating twins. Using a Petri dish, an early stage embryo is manually divided into two embryos. Both embryos are identical and have the same DNA. When these embryos are placed into a host mother, genetically identical twins are born.

    Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer is the advanced approach to cloning. In this process, DNA is removed from a host and placed into a specially prepared egg cell for reproduction. To prepare the egg cell for cloning, scientists insert a needle into the cell and remove its DNA from the nuclei. This "empty" nuclei is then "filled" with the DNA taken from the host. The egg cell is then implanted for reproduction. When the fetus is born, it will be an identical copy of the host.

Artificial Embryo Twinning - sounds like there'd be different mind streams for each twin.

Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer - how would the clone share the same mind stream as the host, if it was born at a different time...? Moreover the the DNA used to create the clone is the result of the union that resulted in the host... an why would the mind of the host follow the DNA which is inserted into the new eggcell? The mind doesn't "reside" in DNA...