The Dalai Lama won't stop

[thaimonk]

Dear Vajraprotector,

I like what you said here and I agree. Kyabje Pabongka and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoches students will bring them up again.

That is why we have the chance NOW to do so on this forum.

[thaimonk]

Rossini Schillachi
 
175.144.20.234

Guestbook #1 Submitted on 21 December 2010 09:15:35

I'm live in Milan and this site one of the better Dorje Shugden sites I have encountered, I would be most surprised if another site can top this one. Good job in flying the flag of Dorje Shugden. 

[WisdomBeing]

In this interview (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1209) between Thubten Jigme Norbu and Donald S. Lopez, Jr., I noticed that while Norbu - the Dalai Lama's elder brother - is understandably anti-Shugden, he also said something interesting:

NORBU: Until I was seventeen or eighteen, when I came to Lhasa, I never heard about Dorje Shugden. In Lhasa, people talked about Shugden this and that. But I never paid any attention. Then, ever since His Holiness tried to tell people not worship – or not to take refuge in – Shugden, I tried to learn a little.

This is exactly what several people have mentioned - that the ban has raised awareness of this practice which may have simply gone under the radar if it was NOT banned. Ordinarily, ,many people would not pay attention to a practice which they are not involved in but because of the ban, people have wanted to find out what is the story behind this ban.

Norbu's last word is also interesting:

NORBU: I’m sorry about this whole crisis. But there is one thing I’m very happy about. There are worshipers of Shugden who try to give some good teachings about Buddhism. And people will learn something about Buddhism. The sad thing is, they try to tell people to worship this ghost – that’s very sad. But, too, you know, the good and the bad – which one is it? If worldly power is with you, you always have duality.

Although Norbu is towing the party line as it were, he also gives credit to Shugdenpas who do give good Dharma teachings.

And yes, we always have duality in samsara, which we have to be mindful of.

[Lineageholder]

Related to my original post that started this thread, here's a pic of Lama Zopa and Domo Geshe Rinpoche, taken in Kalimpong on Dec 10:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=8171545&l=9fd392afd7&id=186747361240

I don't believe that the genuine Domo Geshe Rinpoche would ever give up the practice of Dorje Shugden, so I have my doubts.

[WisdomBeing]

Related to my original post that started this thread, here's a pic of Lama Zopa and Domo Geshe Rinpoche, taken in Kalimpong on Dec 10:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=8171545&l=9fd392afd7&id=186747361240

I don't believe that the genuine Domo Geshe Rinpoche would ever give up the practice of Dorje Shugden, so I have my doubts.

When you say genuine, do you mean that you think this incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche is false?

[Lineageholder]

When you say genuine, do you mean that you think this incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche is false?

I believe that's a possibility.  I don't trust the tulku system because it's open to abuse, especially in these degenerate times, and has been abused in the past.

[Vajraprotector]

I believe this incarnation of Domo Chocktrul Rinpoche is real.

The current incarnation (Domo Chocktrul Rinpoche Losang Jigme Nyak-Gi Wangchuk) was recognized by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama.

The enthronement in year 2008 was presided by Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche and Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche, high lamas in attendance during the ceremony included: Achok Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Zawa Rinpoche, Michel Rinpoche, Helmut Gassner attended as Gonsar Rinpoche’s representative, Kentrul Rinpoche as Kyabje Phabongkha Rinpoche’s representative.
Read more here:
1. http://www.domogesherinpoche.org/
2. http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=516

As Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche said at the beginning of the ceremony, the young Tulku has been recognized in order for him “to continue his activities for the flourishing of the teachings of the Buddha, particularly for the teachings of the great master Je Tsong Khapa.”  I believe Domo Chocktrul Rinpoche will continue the lineage of spreading the teachings of Shugden when the time is right.

[LosangKhyentse]

There are two Domo Geshe Rinpoche incarnations. One is recognized by HH Dalai Lama and the other by HH the current Trijang Rinpoche.

The Tulku system may have it's flaws and can be abused but that does not mean all Tulkus recognized are false, or all tulkus are wrong or the tulku system is not to be believed in. Sweeping statements are not necessary. It's important to think and observe for oneself before criticism of high beings or a system advocated by great lamas. We should not jump into a river and be carried away by the heavy currents.

There are three Temples that were built and started by Domo Geshe Rinpoche's (DGR) previous illustrious and perfect Tulku manifestation in North India that are functioning today.  Also his large centre in Upper New York State in the US.

His Holiness the current Trijang Rinpoche recognized Dome Geshe Rinpoche and he was officially enthroned in his monastery in North India and has entered Shar Gaden Monastery already.
( Enthronement: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=516 ) To counter this, Sera Jey Monastery had another DGR recognized and received a seal from HH Dalai Lama and they enthroned the second one in Sera Jey. The picture Lama Zopa took together with is the Sera Jey one.

So the tulku system is fine. Just follow, believe, trust and observe the one recognized by HH Trijang Rinpoche. Remain silent of criticism, offer pujas, good wishes, and merits for the success of this one. It is important especially after the passing of HH Dalai Lama (sorry). This Tulkus will be VERY IMPORTANT THEN.

After all, HH Dalai Lama recognized Lama Osel (Lama Thupten Yeshe's incarnation) and that has not worked out well so far for FPMT. Quite embarrassing it has been for them.. Lama Osel has given up all ties to FPMT. Results of broken samaya/practice.

HH Dalai Lama recognized the Panchen Lama and he is gone now. The new Panchen is accepted by the 1.2 billion people of China, and it doesn't matter what the 6 million of Tibet thinks I'm sorry to say. This new Panchen seems to be doing a very good job in China so far.

Two of DGR's temples in North India and the New York State Centre side their allegiance to Trijiang Rinpoche's chosen Tulku. One of the North Indian Temples sides with the Dalai lama's choice.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Make it simple, the Tulku system like any system is flawed, but that does not mean it has not worked and will not work again.

I wish His Eminenence Domo Geshe Rinpoche long life, health, hard working students, his entourage to grow, his dharma work to shine again and to proliferate the Gaden tradition as protected by Wrathful Manjushri Dorje Shugden.

TK

[Lineageholder]

The Dalai Lama recognised Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th Panchen Lama.  The boy was abducted and disappeared.

The Dalai Lama recognised Ogyen Trinley Dorje, also the Chinese backed candidate, as the 17th Karmapa in preference to the Sharmapa's candidate, Trinley Thaye Dorje causing an unprecedented and bitter split in the Kagyu tradition.

The Dalai Lama recognised an incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche who doesn't practise Dorje Shugden in opposition to the candidate chosen by Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, potentially causing division in the Gelugpa tradition. (There's also another candidate - a Western woman who claims to be Domo Geshe Rinpoche's incarnation.  This shows how the tulku system is potentially unreliable)

The Dalai Lama recognised Lama Osel, a supposed Tulku of Lama Yeshe, but the Spanish boy they recognised, Hita Torres has since turned his back on the FMPT and gone into a career in film making.

There's a pattern here, don't you think........?

[Lineageholder]

The Tulku system may have it's flaws and can be abused but that does not mean all Tulkus recognized are false, or all tulkus are wrong or the tulku system is not to be believed in. Sweeping statements are not necessary. It's important to think and observe for oneself before criticism of high beings or a system advocated by great lamas. We should not jump into a river and be carried away by the heavy currents.

Dear tk,

Thanks for the information.  Of course we cannot say that all tulkus are wrong, the problem is determining which ones are genuine.  I myself prefer to be inspired by the example and deeds of a particular Teacher, not by their title, although if the two are in accordance that can be very inspiring.

 A case in point is Je Rinpoche who was not recognised as the incarnation of any Tibetan Lama, but who was simply 'Losang Dragpa' - however, he was the crown ornament of the scholars of the Land of the Snows, source of the Ganden doctrine and (I believe) the greatest living scholar and Yogi that Buddhism has produced.

[WisdomBeing]

I think the examples raised of eg 11th Panchen Lama is not necessarily an example of the failure of the Tulku system. The Dalai Lama's candidate was detained, and is not a flaw of the system. However, the Chinese sanctioned Panchen Lama may well be a Tulku also - same as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive.  HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one because he decided to become a lay person? i personally don't think so. What about HH Zong Rinpoche - is he a fake tulku, because he is not outwardly practising DS? They may not have necessarily produced 'example and deeds' yet but it doesn't mean they are not qualified and will produce great things in the future.

[Lineageholder]

I think the examples raised of eg 11th Panchen Lama is not necessarily an example of the failure of the Tulku system. The Dalai Lama's candidate was detained, and is not a flaw of the system. However, the Chinese sanctioned Panchen Lama may well be a Tulku also - same as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive.  HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one because he decided to become a lay person? i personally don't think so. What about HH Zong Rinpoche - is he a fake tulku, because he is not outwardly practising DS? They may not have necessarily produced 'example and deeds' yet but it doesn't mean they are not qualified and will produce great things in the future.

The Dalai Lama made a major error in declaring his candidate for 11th Panchen Lama because the boy was vulnerable as far as the Chinese authorities were concerned, so he was detained.  I hope he is still alive and well.

As for the other tulkus, there's no way to know for sure whether they are the person they are recognised as.  As I said before, I think it's best to be inspired by a person's example rather than the title they are given.  I do hope we will see the greatness of these Lamas in the future.

[Zach]

I think the examples raised of eg 11th Panchen Lama is not necessarily an example of the failure of the Tulku system. The Dalai Lama's candidate was detained, and is not a flaw of the system. However, the Chinese sanctioned Panchen Lama may well be a Tulku also - same as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive.  HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one because he decided to become a lay person? i personally don't think so. What about HH Zong Rinpoche - is he a fake tulku, because he is not outwardly practising DS? They may not have necessarily produced 'example and deeds' yet but it doesn't mean they are not qualified and will produce great things in the future.

The Dalai Lama made a major error in declaring his candidate for 11th Panchen Lama because the boy was vulnerable as far as the Chinese authorities were concerned, so he was detained.  I hope he is still alive and well.

As for the other tulkus, there's no way to know for sure whether they are the person they are recognised as.  As I said before, I think it's best to be inspired by a person's example rather than the title they are given.  I do hope we will see the greatness of these Lamas in the future.

If Buddha's are Intent upon helping us via Recognised reincarnations I think it would not be beyond doubt that in the case of the 11th panchen lama that when one has some omniscient wisdom an enlightened being would not eminate where it is unskillfull or unwise to do so, Buddhas would know anyone recognised by the Dalai lama within china as a child reincarnate is certainly in danger...Better to have government approval in an authoritarian system then be a perceived opponent from the start how many people could you help then when you have the whole nation against you ? 

[Zhalmed Pawo]

...as the two karmapas. I like what TK said - which is to focus on the positive.  HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a tulku... is he a false one ...

So how about making a positive truth statement about the issue?

"As I cannot know who is a Tulku and who is a not, I must in truth, say so, and to the effect that I accept someone as a Tulku, I do so merley based on a belief, not knowledge or wisdom."

That would be called truthful speech. The rest is just opionated ballyhoo.

[thaimonk]

I definitely believe in Tulkus. If great many reputable teachers give credence to their existence, so do I. Simple. The End.

I do not need to put in any of my input to tell them they are wrong or right. If they are wrong, why be on this forum, then they are wrong about everything.