The Dalai Lama won't stop

[Lineageholder]

I was sad to read this report about the recent inauguration of the Tharpa Choling Monastery in Kalimpong by the Dalai Lama:

http://www.tibet.net/en/index.php?id=2029&articletype=flash&rmenuid=morenews&tab=1#TabbedPanels1

I'm even sadder to see the Dalai Lama wearing a pandit's hat while he disparages the views of his root and Lineage Gurus.  When inaugurating the Tharpa Choling Monastery, the Dalai Lama said:

"...Tharpa Choeling Monastery is one of the oldest Tibetan Buddhist monasteries in India. But, the propitiation of Shugden in the monastery in the past caused me inconvenience to visit. Later on, despite the fact that Shugden was propitiated by former Lamas, all the concerned people in the monastery with broad vision and reason had completely distanced themselves from the spirit worship. So, it became easy for me to come here,”


This monastery was the home of the great Gelug Yogi Domo Geshe Rinpoche, a great practitioner of Dorje Shugden.  The 13th Dalai Lama believed that Domo Rinpoche was Je Tsongkhapa himself.  Now, this great Yogi's heart practice has been rejected by the new incumbents of the monastery in favour of wrong views.

The Dalai Lama seems to use every public meeting even these days to disparage the practice of Dorje Shugden.  He's never going to stop spreading disharmony.  These are troubled times, for sure.

[beggar]

I know this has been said before and there are some who may not agree to this, but I am trying to continue with a positive view on the situation.

Even on a secular level, at the lowest, basest level, why would any political leader of a people (exiled, no less) keep saying these things to incite "disharmony", anger and discord among his own people? Isn't this just social and political suicide? Why would he put his entire reputation at risk with the whole world and also with his own people?

I choose to see this as a deliberate action that will and eventually bring some positive change in the world and in practice throughout the world. some have argued that he is bent on power and reputation and control. I would like to put forward the thought that it is actually the opposite - it would take only a totally selfless person, unaffected by power/reputation/control to do something that would put his whole name so much at risk and cause so many people to "hate" him... just so that something bigger and more beneficial can arise.

I think it is good to let people know what is going on, and i thank lineageholder for sharing this article so we have awareness of what is being said or done... but I think it is important for us to also choose: do we just sit here and bitch about what the DL is saying and doing, or do we find positive ways to grow/transform from the situation and actually help more people by it? As with any action we do, consider: does it bring more people to Dharma and practice, or further away from it? Knowing of these comments / actions of the dalai lama is useful but what do we do with that knowledge and how do we react to it to create more good or bad karma? Sit around and create more negative thoughts and energy? Or do something about it that gives people more hope, strength and resources to practice.

[Zach]

I know this has been said before and there are some who may not agree to this, but I am trying to continue with a positive view on the situation.

Even on a secular level, at the lowest, basest level, why would any political leader of a people (exiled, no less) keep saying these things to incite "disharmony", anger and discord among his own people? Isn't this just social and political suicide? Why would he put his entire reputation at risk with the whole world and also with his own people?

I choose to see this as a deliberate action that will and eventually bring some positive change in the world and in practice throughout the world. some have argued that he is bent on power and reputation and control. I would like to put forward the thought that it is actually the opposite - it would take only a totally selfless person, unaffected by power/reputation/control to do something that would put his whole name so much at risk and cause so many people to "hate" him... just so that something bigger and more beneficial can arise.

I think it is good to let people know what is going on, and i thank lineageholder for sharing this article so we have awareness of what is being said or done... but I think it is important for us to also choose: do we just sit here and bitch about what the DL is saying and doing, or do we find positive ways to grow/transform from the situation and actually help more people by it? As with any action we do, consider: does it bring more people to Dharma and practice, or further away from it? Knowing of these comments / actions of the dalai lama is useful but what do we do with that knowledge and how do we react to it to create more good or bad karma? Sit around and create more negative thoughts and energy? Or do something about it that gives people more hope, strength and resources to practice.

Well said. 
This situations isnt going to go away over night, Its a long haul so I suppose we should make it as comfortable as we can and be a bit more cheery, Use the situation to our own and others benifit by futher knowledge and ever futher reliance...This can be one of our motivators to become enlightened for all sentient beings 

[LosangKhyentse]

I know this has been said before and there are some who may not agree to this, but I am trying to continue with a positive view on the situation.

Even on a secular level, at the lowest, basest level, why would any political leader of a people (exiled, no less) keep saying these things to incite "disharmony", anger and discord among his own people? Isn't this just social and political suicide? Why would he put his entire reputation at risk with the whole world and also with his own people?

I choose to see this as a deliberate action that will and eventually bring some positive change in the world and in practice throughout the world. some have argued that he is bent on power and reputation and control. I would like to put forward the thought that it is actually the opposite - it would take only a totally selfless person, unaffected by power/reputation/control to do something that would put his whole name so much at risk and cause so many people to "hate" him... just so that something bigger and more beneficial can arise.

I think it is good to let people know what is going on, and i thank lineageholder for sharing this article so we have awareness of what is being said or done... but I think it is important for us to also choose: do we just sit here and bitch about what the DL is saying and doing, or do we find positive ways to grow/transform from the situation and actually help more people by it? As with any action we do, consider: does it bring more people to Dharma and practice, or further away from it? Knowing of these comments / actions of the dalai lama is useful but what do we do with that knowledge and how do we react to it to create more good or bad karma? Sit around and create more negative thoughts and energy? Or do something about it that gives people more hope, strength and resources to practice.

This was really well thought out and well expressed. Thank you so much.

It is very disconcerting that Dalai Lama is still talking and indirectly saying Domo Geshe is wrong. There is nothing much we can do to make him stop this. Most likely among the Tibetan communities in India he will lessen the practice but not outside of india among people like us. We must keep the lineage going.

We should write more articles, post more information, put up more videos, pass out more brochures on/from this website to 'counter' the Dalai Lama.  We should not sit around and just talk, forum and complain but take more decisive actions. I will.

Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world should gather here and give eachother support, comfort, updates, information no matter who our teachers are or what our view of the Dalai Lama. We must look for our similarities and not differences.

tk

[Lineageholder]

We should write more articles, post more information, put up more videos to 'counter' the Dalai Lama.  We should not sit around and just talk, forum and complain but take more decisive actions. I will.
tk

Well said, I am and I will continue to do so. 

[Atishas cook]

i too will continue to work to preserve and protect our shared lineages and practice, both through my own reliance and through speaking, writing, posting, etc.

i am not "anti" Dalai Lama and i never have been.  i understand i'll need to keep saying this over and over again!

i AM anti religious persecution and intolerance.  the Dalai Lama's actions - ostensibly - are actions of religious persecution and intolerance and so i am against them.

i think everyone who loves Dorje Shugden should oppose these actions.  why?

IF the Dalai Lama is a deluded being - and i do not say he is or he isn't - his actions are harmful and they must be stopped.

IF the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being - and i do not say he is or he isn't - his actions are, on the surface, harmful and the only correct response, conventionally, is to oppose them.  if he is an enlightened being appearing to engage in deluded actions then surely he wants right-thinking, faithful disciples to oppose his actions?  Buddha may appear as anything - anythying - to help our practice and to help the Dharma flourish; we must always respond appropriately, praising good behaviour and chastising negative behaviour.  not to do so is to invite many faults.

he will not stop, and the TGIE is putting in place the rhetoric to maintain the ban even after he retires.  NOW is the time to stop this ban, while he is still in power - we need him to rescind it; after he's gone, it'll be enshrined as doctrine forever.  if he's a Buddha, he wants us to create this karma, for the benefit of future generations.

one can oppose his actions and maintain a pure view.  this is wisdom.

[thaimonk]

i too will continue to work to preserve and protect our shared lineages and practice, both through my own reliance and through speaking, writing, posting, etc.

i am not "anti" Dalai Lama and i never have been.  i understand i'll need to keep saying this over and over again!

i AM anti religious persecution and intolerance.  the Dalai Lama's actions - ostensibly - are actions of religious persecution and intolerance and so i am against them.

i think everyone who loves Dorje Shugden should oppose these actions.  why?

IF the Dalai Lama is a deluded being - and i do not say he is or he isn't - his actions are harmful and they must be stopped.

IF the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being - and i do not say he is or he isn't - his actions are, on the surface, harmful and the only correct response, conventionally, is to oppose them.  if he is an enlightened being appearing to engage in deluded actions then surely he wants right-thinking, faithful disciples to oppose his actions?  Buddha may appear as anything - anythying - to help our practice and to help the Dharma flourish; we must always respond appropriately, praising good behaviour and chastising negative behaviour.  not to do so is to invite many faults.

he will not stop, and the TGIE is putting in place the rhetoric to maintain the ban even after he retires.  NOW is the time to stop this ban, while he is still in power - we need him to rescind it; after he's gone, it'll be enshrined as doctrine forever.  if he's a Buddha, he wants us to create this karma, for the benefit of future generations.

one can oppose his actions and maintain a pure view.  this is wisdom.

We got your point, you do not have to repeat it. Your views reflect your centre and that is ok. But your views may be wrong and it maybe right, but for you to repeat yourself again and again sounds like you are just trying to convince us under the guise of 'you are not sure if Dalai Lama is deluded or not' when obviously you do believe he's deluded. That is ok. That is your education and results and I respect your view. But there is so many other views and knowledge to be shared.
If we focus on so many other knowledge, many who come to this website would be benefitted in their practice especially the hundreds of new readers. 

[Atishas cook]

of course, i think he's deluded - that's my personal view.  i'm not dissembling, here, its just that i can't claim to know he's deluded, and i do respect others' views that differ from mine.

for my view, i believe i'm following the examples of Buddha and Je Tsongkhapa: i come to my conclusion by examining the Dalai Lama's actions, which are causing such harm.  this my own view, not that of my "centre".  i believe it's valid, but i respect others' views, as i've said.

it's also my view that the only appropriate response to harmful actions is to oppose them, even if it's distasteful and potentially off-putting to newcomers.  if we don't, then i think the fall-out will be far worse in the long run.

[Helena]

Dear Beggar, Zach and TK,

Thank you for your very encouraging words.

In times like these, we need much more inspiring and encouraging words and actions that BENEFIT ourselves as much as the cause. Not engage in words and actions that do not bring about any real benefits to ourselves, others or the cause.


We should write more articles, post more information, put up more videos, pass out more brochures on/from this website to 'counter' the Dalai Lama.  We should not sit around and just talk, forum and complain but take more decisive actions. I will.

Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world should gather here and give eachother support, comfort, updates, information no matter who our teachers are or what our view of the Dalai Lama.

We must look for our similarities and not differences.

tk

[Vajraprotector]

he will not stop, and the TGIE is putting in place the rhetoric to maintain the ban even after he retires.  NOW is the time to stop this ban, while he is still in power - we need him to rescind it; after he's gone, it'll be enshrined as doctrine forever.   if he's a Buddha, he wants us to create this karma, for the benefit of future generations.

one can oppose his actions and maintain a pure view.  this is wisdom.

Just for discussion sake,
a) Why do you think that the ban has to be stopped while His Holiness is still in power? Perhaps it will not hold after His Holiness went into clear light.

b) On spiritual grounds, will His Holiness still be in "power" after this current incarnation? Bear in mind that Tibetan Buddhism is no longer just for Tibetans and many practitioners (globally) are not Tibetans.

c) On political grounds, even if the ban is enshrined as a doctrine "forever" , who will uphold and execute the ban? The TGIE?  Do they have power over the non-Tibetans practitioners all over the world who have their own teachers and their own centres and resources of non-Tibetan origin?

[Atishas cook]

a) Why do you think that the ban has to be stopped while His Holiness is still in power? Perhaps it will not hold after His Holiness went into clear light.

perhaps it won't - i sincerely hope not.  but i very much fear that after his retirement or death, whoever in future holds the power to rescind the ban will (ironically for us) say that they have no authority to overturn their lineage Lama's decisions.  in fact the Dalai Lama has used this very argument when, dishonestly, claiming that he cannot override the views of the 5th and 13th Dalai Lamas on this issue.

b) On spiritual grounds, will His Holiness still be in "power" after this current incarnation? Bear in mind that Tibetan Buddhism is no longer just for Tibetans and many practitioners (globally) are not Tibetans.

no.  but for the reason stated above i think he will still exert a very strong influence on those who will be in power.

c) On political grounds, even if the ban is enshrined as a doctrine "forever" , who will uphold and execute the ban? The TGIE?  Do they have power over the non-Tibetans practitioners all over the world who have their own teachers and their own centres and resources of non-Tibetan origin?

no, the TGIE has no power, and will have no power over practitioners outside the Tibetan diaspora.  this is a very important point: many on this forum have made the point that the Dalai Lama and the TGIE have no direct control over non-Tibetan Sanghas, and that people such as we have freedom to practise whatever we wish.

this is true.  however, by saying, again and again, that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and that those who rely on him are outside Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and the TGIE are destroying our reputation and credibility as members of the Buddhist Sangha.  who do you think people, in general, will believe?  us or the Dalai Lama?

he has incredibly powerful speech.  through his speech, the most highly and widely revered Gelugpa Lamas of the last century, Je Pabongkhapa and HH Trijang Rinpoche have had their photographs removed from shrines and their reputations almost entirely destroyed.

we underestimate the power of his speech and we overestimate our independence.

of course, we are free to do as we please.  but you watch: already, we are increasingly marginalised and distrusted.  already, Shugdenpas are considered spirit-worshippers, responsible for the degeneration of holy Buddha Dharma, by the majority.  so yes, we are free and we'll never give up our practice.  but how many will take up our practice in the next generation?  how many in the generation after that?

"We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dholgyal is remembered."

[thaimonk]

a) Why do you think that the ban has to be stopped while His Holiness is still in power? Perhaps it will not hold after His Holiness went into clear light.

perhaps it won't - i sincerely hope not.  but i very much fear that after his retirement or death, whoever in future holds the power to rescind the ban will (ironically for us) say that they have no authority to overturn their lineage Lama's decisions.  in fact the Dalai Lama has used this very argument when, dishonestly, claiming that he cannot override the views of the 5th and 13th Dalai Lamas on this issue.

What AC says here is very valid. But that is just one valid scenario. Hundreds of other scenarios may happen in our benefit. The future person in power WILL NEVER HAVE AS MUCH POWER AS THE CURRENT DALAI LAMA. The whole demographics have changed and will change much more. The person in power may say they do not have the power to overturn the ban, but also will not have the power to enforce the ban or continue the rampage. This person will not have the power and prestige to enforce it and if there are protests, they will not have the reputation to stave off the results of the protests.

b) On spiritual grounds, will His Holiness still be in "power" after this current incarnation? Bear in mind that Tibetan Buddhism is no longer just for Tibetans and many practitioners (globally) are not Tibetans.

no.  but for the reason stated above i think he will still exert a very strong influence on those who will be in power.

Yes, his influence is strong. So was Julius Caesar, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, Mussolini, Marcos and their regimes have faded. Their rule is seen as tyranny. Many of the previous popes are not seen in a good light at all now. The Dalai Lama's influence will fade, will disappear and will have no effect in regards to Shugden so let's make this happen here. I do not hate Dalai Lama nor wish him ill. In fact I like many of the things he does, but not the Shugden issue.

We must promote the famous names, powerful, and great Tulkus names we have in our Gelug Lineage and create the circumstances for them to reach many and highly publicize them. Hence Tulkus are very important in this. Dalai Lama's got his power due to his tulku-ship. Panchen Lama, Trijang Lama, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen Rinpoche, Dagom Lama, Tendar Lama, Domo Geshe, Rabten Lama, etc etc will play powerful roles if we support them. The Tulku system will be very important.

c) On political grounds, even if the ban is enshrined as a doctrine "forever" , who will uphold and execute the ban? The TGIE?  Do they have power over the non-Tibetans practitioners all over the world who have their own teachers and their own centres and resources of non-Tibetan origin?

no, the TGIE has no power, and will have no power over practitioners outside the Tibetan diaspora.  this is a very important point: many on this forum have made the point that the Dalai Lama and the TGIE have no direct control over non-Tibetan Sanghas, and that people such as we have freedom to practise whatever we wish.

this is true.  however, by saying, again and again, that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and that those who rely on him are outside Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and the TGIE are destroying our reputation and credibility as members of the Buddhist Sangha.  who do you think people, in general, will believe?  us or the Dalai Lama?

he has incredibly powerful speech.  through his speech, the most highly and widely revered Gelugpa Lamas of the last century, Je Pabongkhapa and HH Trijang Rinpoche have had their photographs removed from shrines and their reputations almost entirely destroyed.

we underestimate the power of his speech and we overestimate our independence.

of course, we are free to do as we please.  but you watch: already, we are increasingly marginalised and distrusted.  already, Shugdenpas are considered spirit-worshippers, responsible for the degeneration of holy Buddha Dharma, by the majority.  so yes, we are free and we'll never give up our practice.  but how many will take up our practice in the next generation?  how many in the generation after that?

"We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dholgyal is remembered."

Look at the Quakers, Puritans, Mormons, Baptists, Salem witches and persecuted Jewish people to name a few which were all viewed with contempt and marginalized. But now they have either morphed into something much bigger (what we can do) or survived into the present day protected by law and doing well.

The Dalai Lama's speech and influence will be here for a while, but not forever and we can do everything we can to counter it. So let's do it here.

[WisdomBeing]

Everything looks difficult right now but if we look on the macro level, this period of time is but a tiny speck. The persecution of Shugden practitioners is similar to the fight between Protestants and the Catholics and the persecution here was for much longer and more tortuous. Yet today, they co-exist in relative harmony (except in Northern Ireland  ). We may or may not see things change in our lifetime - though of course I pray very much that they will - but I believe and trust in Dorje Shugden that things will work out in time and Dorje Shugden will ensure it is the right time.

i do believe that Dorje Shugden is looking after us, guiding us, so as long as we do our part - by practising Lord Tsongkhapa's teachings, keeping our refuge vows and not harming any sentient beings - be they the Dalai Lama or our bloody annoying neighbour - then things will work out. Some might think that is too idealistic but I don't think so. It keeps me optimistic.

[thaimonk]

Everything looks difficult right now but if we look on the macro level, this period of time is but a tiny speck. The persecution of Shugden practitioners is similar to the fight between Protestants and the Catholics and the persecution here was for much longer and more tortuous. Yet today, they co-exist in relative harmony (except in Northern Ireland  ). We may or may not see things change in our lifetime - though of course I pray very much that they will - but I believe and trust in Dorje Shugden that things will work out in time and Dorje Shugden will ensure it is the right time.

i do believe that Dorje Shugden is looking after us, guiding us, so as long as we do our part - by practising Lord Tsongkhapa's teachings, keeping our refuge vows and not harming any sentient beings - be they the Dalai Lama or our bloody annoying neighbour - then things will work out. Some might think that is too idealistic but I don't think so. It keeps me optimistic.

I like your positive outlook based on logical thoughts. If I believe it will not turn out well, then why be here at all?

[Vajraprotector]

c) On political grounds, even if the ban is enshrined as a doctrine "forever" , who will uphold and execute the ban? The TGIE?  Do they have power over the non-Tibetans practitioners all over the world who have their own teachers and their own centres and resources of non-Tibetan origin?

no, the TGIE has no power, and will have no power over practitioners outside the Tibetan diaspora.  this is a very important point: many on this forum have made the point that the Dalai Lama and the TGIE have no direct control over non-Tibetan Sanghas, and that people such as we have freedom to practise whatever we wish.

this is true.  however, by saying, again and again, that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit and that those who rely on him are outside Buddhism, the Dalai Lama and the TGIE are destroying our reputation and credibility as members of the Buddhist Sangha.  who do you think people, in general, will believe?  us or the Dalai Lama?

he has incredibly powerful speech.  through his speech, the most highly and widely revered Gelugpa Lamas of the last century, Je Pabongkhapa and HH Trijang Rinpoche have had their photographs removed from shrines and their reputations almost entirely destroyed.

we underestimate the power of his speech and we overestimate our independence.

of course, we are free to do as we please.  but you watch: already, we are increasingly marginalised and distrusted.  already, Shugdenpas are considered spirit-worshippers, responsible for the degeneration of holy Buddha Dharma, by the majority.  so yes, we are free and we'll never give up our practice.  but how many will take up our practice in the next generation?  how many in the generation after that?

"We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dholgyal is remembered."

Dear Atisha Cook,

Thank you for responding to my questions. I do agree with you re His Holiness' powerful speech that caused Je Pabongkhapa's and HH Trijang Rinpoche's photographs removed from shrines and their reputations almost entirely destroyed.

But, I do think this is done out of respect for His Holiness (not so much the TGIE or the enforcement of the ban). Sorry to say, when His Holiness takes his leave (I don't wish this to happen but it will), the people who are the students of Je Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche will bring their teachers up again.

There are many masters out there who kept silent in respect of His Holiness. An example is Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal who kept silent until the end of his term when he switched camp. It is not necessary that the lineage will be destroyed, but the lineage has a new beginning with proper Shugden monasteries starting and will take root in the future: Shar Ganden and also Serpom. Don't forget, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is young and is yet to manifest his great works.

I hope we all live long to see the day where Shugden and its practice is as bright as the sun in the sky. The dark and gloomy days of the ban will soon be over. We just need to have patience.